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Why does hell have to be eternal?
- Thread starter Me Myself
- Start date
Shermana
Heretic
Even in the Book of Enoch, the Fallen Angels who caused all of humanity to be corrupted were only given a punishment of 10,000 years. (By "only" I mean at least its not eternal).
A limited time in purgatory has been a longstanding Jewish tradition. Hasidics (and others) believe you are reincarnated. In Job its quite clear that "naked to the womb I return" is the concept of what happens after death.
Origen, one of the earliest and most educated "Church Fathers" also believed in reincarnation, presumably after a brief stay in hell.
The idea of an everlasting hell is based on Christian misunderstandings of "Aionos" (Age-long, taken to mean "Eternal" erroneously), at least IMO.
Heathen Hammer
Nope, you're still wrong
Yeah, actually I do, since his mercy is supposed to be far superior to a human's. You are basing what you expect him to do on a rather low-brow based human reaction.
Prophet
breaking the statutes of my local municipality
Manipulating the behavior of beings with punishment and reward has never been useful in teaching goodness. However, beings who punish and reward as a way of life must fool themselves into thinking otherwise.
Punishers and rewarders tell themselves that the consequence they administer is aimed at teaching good, but no good comes. Rather, they teach hypocrisy.
The punished avoid things that appear to them as evil, not for any real goodness, but for attachment to the consequences, just as the rewarded do things that appear to them as good, not for any real goodness, but for attachment to the consequences. Selfishness is at the heart of all that they do. How can they, whose only motivation is evil, do anything good?
Punishers and rewarders tell themselves that the consequence they administer is aimed at teaching good, but no good comes. Rather, they teach hypocrisy.
The punished avoid things that appear to them as evil, not for any real goodness, but for attachment to the consequences, just as the rewarded do things that appear to them as good, not for any real goodness, but for attachment to the consequences. Selfishness is at the heart of all that they do. How can they, whose only motivation is evil, do anything good?
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tumbleweed41
Resident Liberal Hippie
Who's "We"?
My convictions regarding the salvation of all were acquired back when I still identified as a Christian. 1 Corinthians 15:22 jumped out at me and sent me on a quest to find out more about that verse's soteriological implications. Turns out that the Good News could be even better than mainstream Christianity had taught me up to that point, and scripture can actually back up such a conclusion.i really do see your point. and maybe your right really i wish it were so, for me I hate anyone should perish, I really do
I usually caveat that statement by adding that it all assumes that salvation was ever even needed in the first place. Lately I'm coming to a different conclusion about that as well; that there might not have some glitch in mankind somewhere back there that God had to fix.
I think you're right.
There are some things in scripture that were said to be "eternal" which turned out to be otherwise, such as in Habakkuk 3:6, where the "everlasting" mountains were shattered.
One helpful rule of thumb is remembering that the noun determines the duration of the adjective eternal/everlasting. For example, a "long business meeting" would not be understood as of the same duration as a "long winter".
Me Myself
Back to my username
Myself and those who believe as I do.
Talk for yourself! xP
horizon_mj1
Well-Known Member
I would expect no more than Superiority to Humanity reactions from any Divine Being. I just find it really insulting and quite actually a Neolithic concept to confuse being given a chance to ask for forgiveness as opposed to being forgiven beyond question. This IMO is an extremely huge problem within most Christian communities; the thought of doing something wrong in some cases may be deemed OK because you think you will be forgiven by simply asking if you go ahead and commit the wrong deed (in Catholicism this is a Mortal Sin)
Considering this, I think it is blessing that forgiveness is even considered and yes beyond human concept (or at least most human concept).
Heathen Hammer
Nope, you're still wrong
Hm, if it is from a superior, divine being, why are we asking, though?
Forgiveness however is a simple concept; well within the realm of human understanding.This IMO is an extremely huge problem within most Christian communities; the thought of doing something wrong in some cases may be deemed OK because you think you will be forgiven by simply asking if you go ahead and commit the wrong deed (in Catholicism this is a Mortal Sin)
No rational deity should create a system that man cannot understand. This is the Dog Whisperer Fallacy. If man cannot understand the system, that system is not moral.
horizon_mj1
Well-Known Member
Maybe Honesty is being sought? I kind of see it as if someone knowingly wrongs you and they have the audacity to look you right in the eye and apologize as opposed to acting like nothing ever even happened (personally I prefer someone with audacity
)Quite simple, but we do not know each and every thought of each other do we? Aside from that how many people can forgive for things such as rape or murder; IMO the offense can mediate rather forgiveness is granted or not.
You know what I think; way too many people are way too busy thinking they are right instead of having an open mind (which is needed IMO when searching for such things) they disallow themselves (through personal concepts) to find the Truth to the System. Mankind has the Knowledge right before them to find these answers if they seek them with the heart of child (in other words don't think you know the answer before you actually do). When it comes to Deities IMO not everyones God is the same God to start with, but not only this, Dominate (over Humans) Deities are not ever recognized for what they are. Every concept or Religion has truth (Yes, even Atheism) the Answer IMO lies withing finding these Truths and putting them all together. (Please do not get me wrong I include Scientific concepts to be included as well; everything in existence has some sort of proof or other to explain why it exists and where its existence came from; we have just not found them all yet. Wouldn't life be boring if we did?)
dantech
Well-Known Member
Orthodox Judaism doesn't describe Hell as Eternal.
The way we see it, Hell is a place where we go to burn off the stains we left on our souls during our life time through sins. Each and every sin taints our soul and the soul needs cleansing before she could make it to Heaven, because you could only "cross the gates" once you are 100% pure.
Think of it as a father putting Alcohol on his child's cuts and scrapes. At that moment, it will burn him, but the eventual goal is to disinfect and heal.
The way we see it, Hell is a place where we go to burn off the stains we left on our souls during our life time through sins. Each and every sin taints our soul and the soul needs cleansing before she could make it to Heaven, because you could only "cross the gates" once you are 100% pure.
Think of it as a father putting Alcohol on his child's cuts and scrapes. At that moment, it will burn him, but the eventual goal is to disinfect and heal.
nazz
Doubting Thomas
love that analogy
Heathen Hammer
Nope, you're still wrong
Arbitrary requirements.
We don't need to know every thought to understand something as simple as this.
And, there ARE people who forgive these crimes of others. Yet an almighty cannot.
Says a bit about that almighty. When mere humans do it better?
And, my opinion is that way too many people are shown that their system is immoral and so they must come up with magical disqualifiers to negate what reason they are shown.
Some people simply don't want to be not-right, and make up incredible excuses.
Me Myself
Back to my username
For me , that works.
I am all for purgatory. Is Hell (as eternal) that I have problems with.
horizon_mj1
Well-Known Member
Listen, I think maybe I came across a bit too crass, and did not properly explain myself. It is not at all that I think that the Almighty can not forgive anyone (or maybe better phrased as everyone), but the time that may take could be inconceivable to us, thus seeming an eternity.
Just a foot note from an earlier post, it is the 3rd Circle of Heaven in which Hell is located according to the Secrets of Enoch.
Eternity as a timeless existence does not imply 'forever', as 'forever' is a concept that exists only within the constraints of time. Eternity is outside or beyond time itself. Don't really know what this might mean in regards to the notion of some 'after biology hell'. ? (except to assume for the sake of the discussion that everything beyond biological/physical life is also beyond time?)
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Shermana
Heretic
Yes, the possibility that he has no problem with murderers and rapists and thieves and liars and defrauders at all. In fact, he watches their actions with popcorn on HeavenTV. Makes a great drama.
Me Myself
Back to my username
You pretty much described the Hindu view upon it
To be fair, stopping a murder or a rape should be mighty easy for him if he wanted to. In the concept of an omniscient God, being there to watch is a bit redundant though. He knew how and when and where and why all of it was gonna happen. He could´ve just not created the human that did it, yet he did.
To be fair, stopping a murder or a rape should be mighty easy for him if he wanted to. In the concept of an omniscient God, being there to watch is a bit redundant though. He knew how and when and where and why all of it was gonna happen. He could´ve just not created the human that did it, yet he did.