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Why do you believe in God of Abraham?

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
I can't conceive on such a large scale. I look at this pic of a simple protein molecule

images


and then realize that all those hundreds of thousands of atoms had to come together in just the precise arrangement over and over and over x's 10(*325) and I simply cannot believe it was random.
What do you mean that they had to come together in just the precise arrangement? All we can say for sure is that life as we know it is cellular and that cells are made of molecules, which is more than people used to know.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I don't believe the theory that "God created because love must have something to love" which I used to believe. I'm a lot closer to being a deist than a "God is loveist."
I am definitely moving in that direction.
It is because of a couple of verses of scripture which can be misinterpreted: John 4:8 and John 4:16 both of which quote "...God is love..." I think John saying "God is love" is a commitment not intended as a definition of God nor an explanation of physical existence. It gets taken too far.
I fully agree, and within the context of the Bible it is called cherry-picking.
Additionally, most people want to feel they are loved so they want to believe that God is love. It gets taken too far.
In addition people always want to know 'Why' about things. Love is one possible answer, but it is an easy mistake to take the first answer and run with it. God as pure love is an interesting way to look at things, but it isn't a complete breakfast. A human person cannot relate to pure love, and that could be part of the reason.
God is more than love but if that is all people can see they won't be able to see anything else.
Clearly, the entirety of the Bible does not support God as being only loving. God also has wrath and other qualities.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Questions to Abrahamic believers, believers in Judaism, christianity, islam, baha'i , rastafarianism, mormonism and other abrahamic faiths.

Why do you believe in God of Abraham?

Why do you think God of Abraham is the one true God of the universe/universes?
The difference between simply life and human beings is WORDS. Who has the best words of the story of people versus life? Abraham! And those who love him.

Another way of looking at it is...what makes most people think the most? Is it the Bible?
 

SeekingAllTruth

Well-Known Member
What do you mean that they had to come together in just the precise arrangement? All we can say for sure is that life as we know it is cellular and that cells are made of molecules, which is more than people used to know.
I'm not a scientist but as it was explained to me once by a biologist who was not a theist--I don't know what his beliefs were but I do remember him saying he wasn't a Christian when I asked-- all those little dots are atoms and there are hundreds of thousands of them in that molecule. Now if even one atom is out of order in that model the entire structure falls apart. So it's akin to dumping thousands of letters into a stew, letting the liquid dry and having Shakespeare's Hamlet left behind.
 

SeekingAllTruth

Well-Known Member
I am definitely moving in that direction.

I fully agree, and within the context of the Bible it is called cherry-picking.
Additionally, most people want to feel they are loved so they want to believe that God is love. It gets taken too far.

God is more than love but if that is all people can see they won't be able to see anything else.
Clearly, the entirety of the Bible does not support God as being only loving. God also has wrath and other qualities.

IMHO, the picture we have from the Bible and other holy books of how God behaves is entirely man-derived. All of man's qualities both good and bad were fused into this God figure by fallible men writing the scriptures who either possessed these same qualities or saw them reflected in other men. The real God is completely unknowable or understandable.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
IMHO, the picture we have from the Bible and other holy books of how God behaves is entirely man-derived. All of man's qualities both good and bad were fused into this God figure by fallible men writing the scriptures who either possessed these same qualities or saw them reflected in other men. The real God is completely unknowable or understandable.
I believe we can know some of the attributes of God from what the Messengers of God reveal about God in scriptures, but as I said to Brick, I think men cherry-pick and and I think men also misinterpret the scriptures to mean what they want to believe.

It is a Baha'i belief that the Essence of God (God's intrinsic nature) is completely unknowable. All we can know are some attributes of God and the will of God that is revealed by the Messengers of God in every age. Nobody knows that Essence of God, not even the Messengers of God. Baha'u'llah wrote that only God knows the nature of God.

“I am moved to testify that Thy court of holiness and glory is immeasurably exalted above the knowledge of all else besides Thee, and the mystery of Thy Presence is inscrutable to every mind except Thine own. No one except Thyself can unravel the secret of Thy nature, and naught else but Thy transcendental Essence can grasp the reality of Thy unsearchable being. How vast the number of those heavenly and all-glorious beings who, in the wilderness of their separation from Thee, have wandered all the days of their lives, and failed in the end to find Thee! How great the multitude of the sanctified and immortal souls who were lost and bewildered while seeking in the desert of search to behold Thy face!”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 64
 
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SeekingAllTruth

Well-Known Member
I believe we can know some of the attributes of God from what the Messengers if God reveal about God in scriptures, but as I said to Brick, I think men cherry-pick and and I think men also misinterpret the scriptures to mean what they want to believe.

It is a Baha'i belief that the Essence of God (God's intrinsic nature) is completely unknowable. All we can know are some attributes of God and the will of God that is revealed by the Messengers of God in every age. Nobody knows that Essence of God, not even the Messengers of God. Baha'u'llah wrote that only God knows the nature of God.

“I am moved to testify that Thy court of holiness and glory is immeasurably exalted above the knowledge of all else besides Thee, and the mystery of Thy Presence is inscrutable to every mind except Thine own. No one except Thyself can unravel the secret of Thy nature, and naught else but Thy transcendental Essence can grasp the reality of Thy unsearchable being. How vast the number of those heavenly and all-glorious beings who, in the wilderness of their separation from Thee, have wandered all the days of their lives, and failed in the end to find Thee! How great the multitude of the sanctified and immortal souls who were lost and bewildered while seeking in the desert of search to behold Thy face!”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 64

We do know from the Old Testament that God displays these qualities in plenty of verses: He's

jealous and proud of it; petty, unjust, an unforgiving control-freak; vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent and a bully. ---Dawkins

No god who displays these qualities should be worshiped.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
We do know from the Old Testament that God displays these qualities in plenty of verses: He's

jealous and proud of it; petty, unjust, an unforgiving control-freak; vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent and a bully. ---Dawkins

No god who displays these qualities should be worshiped.
My thoughts and feelings about God's attributes are not derived from the Bible; they are derived from my own suffering and the suffering I see I the world. Of course I also see good things in the world, but I attribute these to good people.

As I think I have told you before, I do not believe that the Old Testament represents God's speech or actions but rather the ideas men had about what God said and did. The following is a synopsis of a Baha'i scholarly viewpoint of the Bible.

Mírza Abú'l-Fadl was praised and recommended by 'Abdu'l-Bahá and has been justifiably called the most learned and erudite Bahá'í scholar[16]

Regarding the Old Testament, Fadl said that it contained two types of teaching: a) revelation from God, such as the 10 commandments of Moses, the Psalms of David and the books of the Prophets, and b) historical information, such as the books Joshua, Samuel, Kings and Chronicles "...which contain no statement, sign or hint of being divine speech and therefore should not be considered as revelation."[17]


Concerning the Book of Christ, he wrote that "The Holy Gospels alone contain teachings which can be regarded as the true Words of God; and these teachings do not exceed the contents of a few pages."[18]


Mírza Abú'l-Fadl's contributions are original and lucid, and appear to me to be in harmony with the understanding of the Bible which is argued for in the present paper.

Conclusion

The Bahá'í viewpoint proposed by this essay has been established as follows: The Bible is a reliable source of Divine guidance and salvation, and rightly regarded as a sacred and holy book. However, as a collection of the writings of independent and human authors, it is not necessarily historically accurate. Nor can the words of its writers, although inspired, be strictly defined as 'The Word of God' in the way the original words of Moses and Jesus could have been. Instead there is an area of continuing interest for Bahá'í scholars, possibly involving the creation of new categories for defining authoritative religious literature.

A Baháí View of the Bible
 
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nPeace

Veteran Member
God does not want all people in the world to have the same religion. Evidence?

The Tower of Babel
11Now the whole world had one language and a common speech. 2 As people moved eastward, they found a plain in Shinar and settled there.

3 They said to each other, “Come, let’s make bricks and bake them thoroughly.” They used brick instead of stone, and tar for mortar. 4 Then they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves; otherwise we will be scattered over the face of the whole earth.”

5 But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower the people were building. 6 The Lord said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.”

8 So the Lord scattered them from there over all the earth, and they stopped building the city. 9 That is why it was called Babel—because there the Lord confused the language of the whole world. From there the Lord scattered them over the face of the whole earth.
Perhaps I am reading things I ought not.
Which books do you suggest I read, and which should I not read?
God requires people worship him on his terms, not theirs. He requires pure worship - not tainted by idolatry, exclusively offered to him in the way he says, and the place of worship he says.

Deuteronomy 12 NIV
The One Place of Worship

1These are the decrees and laws you must be careful to follow in the land that the Lord, the God of your ancestors, has given you to possess—as long as you live in the land. 2Destroy completely all the places on the high mountains, on the hills and under every spreading tree, where the nations you are dispossessing worship their gods. 3Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and burn their Asherah poles in the fire; cut down the idols of their gods and wipe out their names from those places.

4You must not worship the Lord your God in their way. 5But you are to seek the place the Lord your God will choose from among all your tribes to put his Name there for his dwelling. To that place you must go

1 Kings 12 NIV
Golden Calves at Bethel and Dan

26Jeroboam thought to himself, “The kingdom will now likely revert to the house of David. 27If these people go up to offer sacrifices at the temple of the Lord in Jerusalem, they will again give their allegiance to their lord, Rehoboam king of Judah. They will kill me and return to King Rehoboam.”

28After seeking advice, the king made two golden calves. He said to the people, “It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem. Here are your gods, Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.” 29One he set up in Bethel, and the other in Dan. 30And this thing became a sin; the people came to worship the one at Bethel and went as far as Dan to worship the other. d

1 Kings 13 NIV
The Man of God From Judah

1By the word of the Lord a man of God came from Judah to Bethel, as Jeroboam was standing by the altar to make an offering. 2By the word of the Lord he cried out against the altar: “Altar, altar! This is what the Lord says: ‘A son named Josiah will be born to the house of David. On you he will sacrifice the priests of the high places who make offerings here, and human bones will be burned on you.’ ” 3That same day the man of God gave a sign: “This is the sign the Lord has declared: The altar will be split apart and the ashes on it will be poured out.”

1 Kings 13 NIV
33Even after this, Jeroboam did not change his evil ways, but once more appointed priests for the high places from all sorts of people. Anyone who wanted to become a priest he consecrated for the high places. 34This was the sin of the house of Jeroboam that led to its downfall and to its destruction from the face of the earth.

4When King Jeroboam heard what the man of God cried out against the altar at Bethel, he stretched out his hand from the altar and said, “Seize him!” But the hand he stretched out toward the man shriveled up, so that he could not pull it back. 5Also, the altar was split apart and its ashes poured out according to the sign given by the man of God by the word of the Lord.

2 Kings 23 NIV
King Josiah, in obedience to God, pulled down all the places of worship, the people made for worship, and he slaughtered all the priest of Baal worship.

2 Kings 17 NIV
34To this day they persist in their former practices. They neither worship the Lord nor adhere to the decrees and regulations, the laws and commands that the Lord gave the descendants of Jacob, whom he named Israel. 35When the Lord made a covenant with the Israelites, he commanded them: “Do not worship any other gods or bow down to them, serve them or sacrifice to them. 36But the Lord, who brought you up out of Egypt with mighty power and outstretched arm, is the one you must worship. To him you shall bow down and to him offer sacrifices. 37You must always be careful to keep the decrees and regulations, the laws and commands he wrote for you. Do not worship other gods. 38Do not forget the covenant I have made with you, and do not worship other gods. 39Rather, worship the Lord your God; it is he who will deliver you from the hand of all your enemies.”

40They would not listen, however, but persisted in their former practices. 41Even while these people were worshiping the Lord, they were serving their idols. To this day their children and grandchildren continue to do as their ancestors did.

Numbers 33 NIV
50On the plains of Moab by the Jordan across from Jericho the Lord said to Moses, 51“Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘When you cross the Jordan into Canaan, 52drive out all the inhabitants of the land before you. Destroy all their carved images and their cast idols, and demolish all their high places. 53Take possession of the land and settle in it, for I have given you the land to possess. 54Distribute the land by lot, according to your clans. To a larger group give a larger inheritance, and to a smaller group a smaller one. Whatever falls to them by lot will be theirs. Distribute it according to your ancestral tribes.

Isaiah 2 NIV
The Mountain of the Lord

1This is what Isaiah son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem:

2In the last days

the mountain of the Lord’s temple will be established

as the highest of the mountains;

it will be exalted above the hills,

and all nations will stream to it.

3Many peoples will come and say,

“Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,

to the temple of the God of Jacob.

He will teach us his ways,

so that we may walk in his paths.”

The law will go out from Zion,

the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

4He will judge between the nations

and will settle disputes for many peoples.

They will beat their swords into plowshares

and their spears into pruning hooks.

Nation will not take up sword against nation,

nor will they train for war anymore.

5Come, descendants of Jacob,

let us walk in the light of the Lord.
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
We do know from the Old Testament that God displays these qualities in plenty of verses: He's

jealous and proud of it; petty, unjust, an unforgiving control-freak; vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent and a bully. ---Dawkins

No god who displays these qualities should be worshiped.
Dawkins is describing the God of certain Christian missionaries but isn't someone you can rely on to understand the Bible, but Christian missionaries are not experts on the Bible. They are characteristic for opposing the original Jewish understanding of it, which has layers. Dawkins is a great Biologist simply trying to defend Science against attacks, so he's reacting against those who view God as the physical creator. He is not a good source of information for general purposes. He's effective at what he does.

His most influential work is chapter 2 of The Selfish Gene, which I suggest that you will enjoy. That is where Dawkin's work shines. This is where he puts forwards a very good idea about how abiogenesis could work -- how those millions of atoms could come together to make a cell.
 

SeekingAllTruth

Well-Known Member
Perhaps I am reading things I ought not.
Which books do you suggest I read, and which should I not read?
God requires people worship him on his terms, not theirs. He requires pure worship - not tainted by idolatry, exclusively offered to him in the way he says, and the place of worship he says.

The god of christianity is a bit of a prissy finicky little twerp, isn't he?
 

SeekingAllTruth

Well-Known Member
Dawkins is describing the God of certain Christian missionaries but isn't someone you can rely on to understand the Bible, but Christian missionaries are not experts on the Bible. They are characteristic for opposing the original Jewish understanding of it, which has layers. Dawkins is a great Biologist simply trying to defend Science against attacks, so he's reacting against those who view God as the physical creator. He is not a good source of information for general purposes. He's effective at what he does.

His most influential work is chapter 2 of The Selfish Gene, which I suggest that you will enjoy. That is where Dawkin's work shines. This is where he puts forwards a very good idea about how abiogenesis could work -- how those millions of atoms could come together to make a cell.
No, actually Dawkins states quite clearly at the beginning of his statement that he's specifically referring to the god of the Old Testament. I've heard of the selfish gene, never read it though. Normally I'd be able to borrow it from the library but libraries are not operating walk-in around here yet. I'll keep it in mind. Thanks for the reference.
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
No, actually Dawkins states quite clearly at the beginning of his statement that he's specifically referring to the god of the Old Testament.
As a bible scholar he's incompetent, and he must know it. He's simply applying the rule that when debating someone who refuses to discuss things logically you must do as they do and stop appealing to logic with them.

I've heard of the selfish gene, never read it though. Normally I'd be able to borrow it from the library but libraries are not operating walk-in around here yet. I'll keep it in mind. Thanks for the reference.
You'll love it.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
The god of christianity is a bit of a prissy finicky little twerp, isn't he?
Maybe you said that in ignorance, and the God of Abraham and Jesus Christ don't think badly of you. Or maybe you said it with a contemptuous hatred. What does he think of you in that case.

Maybe you don't care what he thinks.
Does he care what you think? According to the Bible he does.
I think one that has love for someone that hates them, and goes so far as to show mercy to that one, is a giant in greatness.
So I know I am in good company with the God of Abraham and Jesus Christ.
When all the haters are gone, it would indeed be better - a universal family sharing love... Actually, it will be great. We won't miss them. :)
 

SeekingAllTruth

Well-Known Member
As a bible scholar he's incompetent, and he must know it. He's simply applying the rule that when debating someone who refuses to discuss things logically you must do as they do and stop appealing to logic with them.

You'll love it.

Actually Dan Barker wrote an entire book on why Dawkins' description of yahweh is 100% correct. It's called "God: the most unpleasant character in all fiction" In it Barker quotes all the verse that support each adjective Dawkins uses. Example: infanticidal

Now go and smite Amalek and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ***.’” 1 Samuel 15:3

Can you even begin to conceive of having to worship a god who orders humans to commit such a disgusting profanity as murdering thousands of innocent babies because his ego was a little bruised?????? Revolting!

25986260.jpg
 
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SeekingAllTruth

Well-Known Member
Maybe you said that in ignorance, and the God of Abraham and Jesus Christ don't think badly of you. Or maybe you said it with a contemptuous hatred. What does he think of you in that case.

Maybe you don't care what he thinks.
Does he care what you think? According to the Bible he does.
I think one that has love for someone that hates them, and goes so far as to show mercy to that one, is a giant in greatness.
So I know I am in good company with the God of Abraham and Jesus Christ.
When all the haters are gone, it would indeed be better... Actually, it will be great. We won't miss them. :)
Far as I'm concerned the god of the Bible is a pagan god no better than Zeus or Thor or Jupiter. A false god tainted with all the bad qualities humans possess, which is not surprising when you consider humans invented him.
 
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