Why do people believe or disbelieve what they do?

[Nimos]

Why do people believe or disbelieve what they do?
It is my opinion that there are two main reasons, and it could be one or both:

1) They were raised as a believer in a certain religion and they have seen no reason to change their religion.

2) If they are a believer, they see evidence for their religion being true and for God’s existence, but if they are an atheist, they do not see evidence for any religion being true and they do not see any evidence of God’s existence.

As a believer I can say that the reason I believe in my religion and in God is because of what ‘I consider’ to be the evidence. I was not raised in any religion or believing in God. In fact, I cannot even remember thinking about religion or God before I joined my religion during my first year of college.

Why do some people see the evidence for a religion and for God so clearly whereas other people see no evidence at all? I think that what we believe or disbelieve is determined by a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, education, life experiences, and present life circumstances. All of these are the reasons why we choose to believe one thing or another.

I think you are right that these things, at least play a role in it.

But we also know that in many cases that for instant education is not a guarantee for whether someone believe or not. Obviously we know that at least openly more scientists are atheists or at least sceptics than not.

To me I think a key factor in regards to believe in God or not, is the definition of God, which can vary a lot from person to person. Meaning that I don't think, the God or idea or concept of God that one person might believe in is the same as someone else's, lets say a scientist for instance, I think would give a different "presentation" of God than someone else would vice versa, even if they both identify as being of the same religion.

Which I think we can see even amongst "normal" people, if we are not talking scientists. Some for instance refer to themselves as Christians, but far from everyone would agree that Adam and Eve is true, whereas someone else might.

To me, at least being a believer is far more complicated in that regards compared to atheists. A person telling me that they are an atheist, im in no way in doubt what their position is in regards to that topic.

And personally I think it would be interesting to hear different believers "idea" or view of the God they believe in is. Because at least, in my experience they are very different, almost to the point where it seems that in many cases it is only the overall idea that seems to be the same.

 

[Trailblazer]

Because the people who claim to see evidence, such as yourself, do not engage in sound practices of reasoning with respect to those god beliefs.

That is nothing more than your personal opinion.... I have a different opinion.
I could just as easily say that the people who claim NOT to see evidence, such as yourself, do not engage in sound practices of reasoning with respect to what would constitute evidence for God.

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm not sure the "evidence" is the right term for why some people believe. Science cannot detect that which is not part of the natural world; we should not expect it to. Perhaps philosophy/logic/theology is the right way to describe how some people believe, in combination with being raised in a faith (though not necessarily the one they end up in). As a case in point, I would cite CS Lewis' "Mere Christianity." It is not about evidence in the scientific sense. It is about human experience and philosophy and theology.

Correct. Evidence for God or a religion is not about evidence in the scientific sense.
I believe that the Messengers of God are evidence for God but that can never be proven as a fact. Whether one believes they were Messengers of God can only be based upon faith and the evidence they provided to back up their claims.

 

[ppp]

That is nothing more than your personal opinion

Not at all. I am talking about the process of the demonstration that one can pragmatically distinguish between the truth of one's proposition and its falsity via a sound set of syllogisms with palpable premises. You are unable to do so.

 

[Trailblazer]

Well, all of your argument rests on your definition of religion. The problem is that for some definitions as an atheist I am not religious and for others I am.

My definition of religion is the Revelation vouchsafed unto humanity by God.

“And now concerning thy question regarding the nature of religion. Know thou that they who are truly wise have likened the world unto the human temple. As the body of man needeth a garment to clothe it, so the body of mankind must needs be adorned with the mantle of justice and wisdom. Its robe is the Revelation vouchsafed unto it by God. Whenever this robe hath fulfilled its purpose, the Almighty will assuredly renew it. For every age requireth a fresh measure of the light of God. Every Divine Revelation hath been sent down in a manner that befitted the circumstances of the age in which it hath appeared.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 81

So you were raised in a religion, where I am not religious and I were raised in one, where we both are. What now?

As I said in the OP, I was not raised in any religion or believing in God. In fact, I cannot even remember thinking about religion or God before I joined my religion during my first year of college. I do not think that being raised in a religion is the sole determinant of what we will end up believing as adults.

 

[Trailblazer]

I suspect there is a unconscious component to this. We consciously rely on our feelings. So we get a feeling whether something is right or wrong which comes from our unconscious which gets "programed" by who know what.

I agree that what we choose to believe or disbelieve is largely unconscious, and given that 95% of the human thought process is unconscious that applies not only to religious beliefs, it applies to all our decisions. However, there is also a conscious component to all our decisions.

So our beliefs feel right, no reason to question them. Not until something consciously hit you hard enough to question your personal sense of right and wrong.

Yes, I think that is what happens. Unless we have a conscious reason to question our beliefs or non-beliefs we will not do so. Sometimes a life crisis will call our belief or non-belief in God into question, and it could go either way.

 

[Trailblazer]

To me I think a key factor in regards to believe in God or not, is the definition of God, which can vary a lot from person to person. Meaning that I don't think, the God or idea or concept of God that one person might believe in is the same as someone else's

And personally I think it would be interesting to hear different believers "idea" or view of the God they believe in is. Because at least, in my experience they are very different, almost to the point where it seems that in many cases it is only the overall idea that seems to be the same.

I agree that believers have different conceptions of who or what God is and that depends upon their religion. In some cases people have no religion but have a personal idea of what God is according to their own thoughts and experiences. Some religions do not define God very well, but the Baha'i Faith has a fairly thorough definition of God found on Wikipedia.

God in the Baháʼí Faith
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Baháʼí view of God is essentially monotheistic. God is the imperishable, uncreated being who is the source of all existence.[1] He is described as "a personal God, unknowable, inaccessible, the source of all Revelation, eternal, omniscient, omnipresent and almighty".[2][3] Though transcendent and inaccessible directly, his image is reflected in his creation. The purpose of creation is for the created to have the capacity to know and love its creator.[4] God communicates his will and purpose to humanity through intermediaries, known as Manifestations of God, who are the prophets and messengers that have founded religions from prehistoric times up to the present day.[5]

The Baháʼí teachings state that there is only one God and that his essence is absolutely inaccessible from the physical realm of existence and that, therefore, his reality is completely unknowable. Thus, all of humanity's conceptions of God which have been derived throughout history are mere manifestations of the human mind and not at all reflective of the nature of God's essence. While God's essence is inaccessible, a subordinate form of knowledge is available by way of mediation by divine messengers, known as Manifestations of God.

Personal God

While the Baháʼí writings teach of a personal god who is a being with a personality (including the capacity to reason and to feel love), they clearly state that this does not imply a human or physical form.[2] Shoghi Effendi writes:

What is meant by personal God is a God Who is conscious of His creation, Who has a Mind, a Will, a Purpose, and not, as many scientists and materialists believe, an unconscious and determined force operating in the universe. Such conception of the Divine Being, as the Supreme and ever present Reality in the world, is not anthropomorphic, for it transcends all human limitations and forms, and does by no means attempt to define the essence of Divinity which is obviously beyond any human comprehension. To say that God is a personal Reality does not mean that He has a physical form, or does in any way resemble a human being. To entertain such belief would be sheer blasphemy.[15][16]

Read more:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_the_Bahai Faith

 

[DKH]

Why do some people see the evidence for a religion and for God so clearly whereas other people see no evidence at all? I think that what we believe or disbelieve is determined by a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, education, life experiences, and present life circumstances. All of these are the reasons why we choose to believe one thing or another.

The bible implies that many are called, but few are chosen (Matthew 22:14). Hence, there seems to be an obvious distinction between those who are called and those who are chosen. It is my opinion that this can be best illustrated by the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:1-9 & 18-23). Where, the called can be anyone. But, during the process of sowing, some seed can fall on the wayside, others onto stony places and some among thorns. Yet, some can also fall onto good ground.

Thus, through-out human history there are only two groups of peoples who are called and chosen. These are the ones who have fallen onto the good ground. They are referred to as: the 144,000 and those invited to the wedding banquet.

However, those called who have fallen unto the wayside, stony places and among the thorns still have hope. It is known as the resurrection…

 

[Twilight Hue]

Why do people believe or disbelieve what they do?
It is my opinion that there are two main reasons, and it could be one or both:

1) They were raised as a believer in a certain religion and they have seen no reason to change their religion.

2) If they are a believer, they see evidence for their religion being true and for God’s existence, but if they are an atheist, they do not see evidence for any religion being true and they do not see any evidence of God’s existence.

As a believer I can say that the reason I believe in my religion and in God is because of what ‘I consider’ to be the evidence. I was not raised in any religion or believing in God. In fact, I cannot even remember thinking about religion or God before I joined my religion during my first year of college.

Why do some people see the evidence for a religion and for God so clearly whereas other people see no evidence at all? I think that what we believe or disbelieve is determined by a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, education, life experiences, and present life circumstances. All of these are the reasons why we choose to believe one thing or another.

It's why I maintain that religion is strictly a personal venture. Not a public one.

Public religion never works.

 

[Trailblazer]

The bible implies that many are called, but few are chosen (Matthew 22:14). Hence, there seems to be an obvious distinction between those who are called and those who are chosen.

The Bible is not the only scripture that refers to the chosen people. I believe that those who are chosen are those who have chosen to serve God, those who are afraid of no one, those who summon the children of men to the path of God.

“There lay concealed within the Holy Veil, and prepared for the service of God, a company of His chosen ones who shall be manifested unto men, who shall aid His Cause, who shall be afraid of no one, though the entire human race rise up and war against them. These are the ones who, before the gaze of the dwellers on earth and the denizens of heaven, shall arise and, shouting aloud, acclaim the name of the Almighty, and summon the children of men to the path of God, the All-Glorious, the All-Praised. Walk thou in their way, and let no one dismay thee. Be of them whom the tumult of the world, however much it may agitate them in the path of their Creator, can never sadden, whose purpose the blame of the blamer will never defeat.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 280-281

 

[Sheldon]

I believe we all have free will so I think that belief and non-belief are choices, but that does not mean we can always make the choice to believe or disbelieve. I cannot choose to disbelieve because I see evidence for God and you cannot choose to disbelieve because of your experiences. Likewise, atheists cannot choose to believe since they see no evidence that God exists.

In other words, free will does not imply that we can choose to believe or disbelieve anything e want to, only that the potential is there.

You have a choice, but can't always identify it, but you did, and you knew this when it happened, but can't offer ay objective evidence to support this, only anecdotal claims.

How is your claim / belief objectively different to the thousands of other deities and religions?

 

[Sheldon]

I am certain there is a God

Based on what exactly?

I cannot prove it to anyone else. I can only explain my rationale for believing.

Can you demonstrate a shred of objective evidence?

I see evidence for the existence of God, and the Messengers of God who have revealed the various religions throughout human history is that evidence.

So all you have is a subjective opinion about someone else's hearsay claims, or facts that are open to interpretation?

I can see how logical arguments can be constructed from facts to reach the conclusion that God probably exists, but logical arguments can also be used to argue against God's existence.

Could you offer a rational argument for a deity, or against, as I am equally dubious about both claims. Oh and the law of non contradictions makes it illogical that both can be true.

I simply go where the evidence takes me and the evidence leads me to conclude that there is a God.

Except you have offered no objective evidence, only a claim about your subjective belief in the subjective claims of others, you call the "messengers of god".

 

[Trailblazer]

How is your claim / belief objectively different to the thousands of other deities and religions? I mean to those who don't share any of them, of course.

The Baha'i Faith claim / belief is objectively different from the thousands of other deities and religions in many ways. I would not even know where to start.

However, the Baha'i Faith is also similar to other religions in many ways since the spiritual teachings are the same as all the Prophets of old taught.

This is that which hath descended from the realm of glory, uttered by the tongue of power and might, and revealed unto the Prophets of old. We have taken the inner essence thereof and clothed it in the garment of brevity, as a token of grace unto the righteous, that they may stand faithful unto the Covenant of God, may fulfill in their lives His trust, and in the realm of spirit obtain the gem of Divine virtue.
The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 3

 

[Sheldon]

Policy said: ↑
Because the people who claim to see evidence, such as yourself, do not engage in sound practices of reasoning with respect to those god beliefs.

That is nothing more than your personal opinion....

Actually it is not, as your posts have been shown to relentlessly use known logical fallacies.

I could just as easily say that the people who claim NOT to see evidence, such as yourself, do not engage in sound practices of reasoning with respect to what would constitute evidence for God.

You could say it of course, but since atheism is neither a claim, argument nor belief it seems an odd accusation. Is your disbelief in mermaids irrational or unsound? Perhaps you could explain the objective difference between your disbelief in mermaids, and my disbelief in any deity? Maybe you could demonstrate some objective reason or argument why my lack of belief in any deity is unsound, and your lack of belief in mermaids isn't?

 

[Sheldon]

Messengers of God can only be based upon faith and the evidence they provided to back up their claims.

What evidence, and why would you need faith if you have compelling objective evidence? Since faith can produce beliefs in wildly different religions and deities, it is seems uselessly inaccurate.

 

[Sheldon]

My definition of religion is the Revelation vouchsafed unto humanity by God.

“And now concerning thy question regarding the nature of religion. Know thou that they who are truly wise have likened the world unto the human temple. As the body of man needeth a garment to clothe it, so the body of mankind must needs be adorned with the mantle of justice and wisdom. Its robe is the Revelation vouchsafed unto it by God. Whenever this robe hath fulfilled its purpose, the Almighty will assuredly renew it. For every age requireth a fresh measure of the light of God. Every Divine Revelation hath been sent down in a manner that befitted the circumstances of the age in which it hath appeared.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 81

As I said in the OP, I was not raised in any religion or believing in God. In fact, I cannot even remember thinking about religion or God before I joined my religion during my first year of college. I do not think that being raised in a religion is the sole determinant of what we will end up believing as adults.

That's still just a subjective claim, and all superstitious beliefs, and religions seem to have started this way. With anecdotal claims and hearsay. I suspect that contributes to Policy's point. How is subjective belief sound reasoning, since it produces unreliable belief in wildly different deities?

 

[Sheldon]

Sheldon said: ↑
How is your claim / belief objectively different to the thousands of other deities and religions? I mean to those who don't share any of them, of course.

The Baha'i Faith claim / belief is objectively different from the thousands of other deities and religions in many ways. I would not even know where to start.

Obviously by demonstrating one such objective difference. If there are many objective differences, then that should be very easily accomplished. I don't care why they are similar, since the result is the same, a belief people hold as a certainty, yet without being able to demonstrate any objective evidence to support it.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Why do people believe or disbelieve what they do?
It is my opinion that there are two main reasons, and it could be one or both:

1) They were raised as a believer in a certain religion and they have seen no reason to change their religion.

2) If they are a believer, they see evidence for their religion being true and for God’s existence, but if they are an atheist, they do not see evidence for any religion being true and they do not see any evidence of God’s existence.

As a believer I can say that the reason I believe in my religion and in God is because of what ‘I consider’ to be the evidence. I was not raised in any religion or believing in God. In fact, I cannot even remember thinking about religion or God before I joined my religion during my first year of college.

Why do some people see the evidence for a religion and for God so clearly whereas other people see no evidence at all? I think that what we believe or disbelieve is determined by a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, education, life experiences, and present life circumstances. All of these are the reasons why we choose to believe one thing or another.

Believing in anything is a choice we make. Yes there are influences but influence isn't the same as causation.

 

[Trailblazer]

Based on what exactly?

I believe in God based upon what Baha'u'llah revealed about God.
That is not circular since Baha'u'llah was not God. He was God's Representative on Earth.

Can you demonstrate a shred of objective evidence?

We have covered this before. There can never be any objective evidence of God. The only evidence for God we can ever have are the Messengers of God since that is all God offers.

So all you have is a subjective opinion about someone else's hearsay claims, or facts that are open to interpretation?

Yes, it is a subjective opinion. All opinions are subjective.
Yes, the facts surrounding the Baha'i Faith are open to interpretation.
To receive a Revelation from God is a claim but it is not a hearsay claim.

Could you offer a rational argument for a deity, or against, as I am equally dubious about both claims. Oh and the law of non contradictions makes it illogical that both can be true.

Of course both God and no God cannot be true, but neither one can be proven to be true, so what people believe is all about how they view the evidence or lack thereof.
Certainly one could argue for or against a deity since no deity can ever be proven to exist or not exist.

Except you have offered no objective evidence, only a claim about your subjective belief in the subjective claims of others, you call the "messengers of god".

Again, there can never be any objective evidence of God since God can never be seen or heard.
However, there is objective evidence of Baha'u'llah since he was seen and heard.

What does objective evidence mean?

Objective evidence refers to information based on facts that can be proved by means of search like analysis, measurement, and observation. One can examine and evaluate objective evidence.
https://askinglot.com/what-does-objective-evidence-mean

What is subjective and objective evidence?

Subjective evidence is evidence that we cannot evaluate. In fact, we have two choices; to accept what somebody says or reject it. ... Objective evidence is evidence that we can examine and evaluate for ourselves.
Objective evidence - definition and meaning - Market ...

We can examine and evaluate the evidence for Baha'u'llah for ourselves because there are facts surrounding the Revelation of Baha'u'llah so in that sense it is objective evidence.

 

[Trailblazer]

Actually it is not, as your posts have been shown to relentlessly use known logical fallacies.

That is just your personal opinion, nothing you have shown.
For every logical fallacy you accuse me of I can show how it is just your opinion that I have committed it.
Moreover, I have shown how certain atheists relentlessly use known logical fallacies

You could say it of course, but since atheism is neither a claim, argument nor belief it seems an odd accusation. Is your disbelief in mermaids irrational or unsound? Perhaps you could explain the objective difference between your disbelief in mermaids, and my disbelief in any deity? Maybe you could demonstrate some objective reason or argument why my lack of belief in any deity is unsound, and your lack of belief in mermaids isn't?

The obvious difference is that there is evidence for God whereas there is no evidence for mermaids.

My lack of belief in mermaids is based upon no evidence for mermaids.
I never claimed that your lack of belief in a deity is unsound; it is neither sound nor unsound.
As I said in the OP, lack of belief is based upon not seeing any evidence for a deity,

2) If they are a believer, they see evidence for their religion being true and for God’s existence, but if they are an atheist, they do not see evidence for any religion being true and they do not see any evidence of God’s existence.