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Why did Buddha beg alms from the public? Did Buddha himself explain his rationality for doing this?

Wannabe Yogi

Well-Known Member
Buddha taught a Middle-way; the cult of begging alms cannot be called a middle way, in my opinion.


If you take Buddhism at face value. The monks are not only begging. They are teaching the most useful thing in the world, the highest knowledge. Putting a end to suffering. This knowledge is well worth a little bit of leftovers. There was a give and take between those who took the food, and those who gave.
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
Middle way is between the two extremes;or the best of it. One engages in the life fully and yet does not crave for the worldly to achieve the purpose of life.
Since you asked for Buddha's own words on the matter:
This is what Buddha taught as the Middle Way: From Buddha's first discourse after his enlightenment:
Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta: Setting the Wheel of Dhamma in Motion

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying at Varanasi in the Game Refuge at Isipatana. There he addressed the group of five monks:
"There are these two extremes that are not to be indulged in by one who has gone forth. Which two? That which is devoted to sensual pleasure with reference to sensual objects: base, vulgar, common, ignoble, unprofitable; and that which is devoted to self-affliction: painful, ignoble, unprofitable. Avoiding both of these extremes, the middle way realized by the Tathagata — producing vision, producing knowledge — leads to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding.
"And what is the middle way realized by the Tathagata that — producing vision, producing knowledge — leads to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding? Precisely this Noble Eightfold Path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. This is the middle way realized by the Tathagata that — producing vision, producing knowledge — leads to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding.​


The Middle Way of the Noble Eightfold Path is the one between the extremes of self-indulgence and self-affliction. These are Buddha's words.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Since you asked for Buddha's own words on the matter:
This is what Buddha taught as the Middle Way: From Buddha's first discourse after his enlightenment:
Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta: Setting the Wheel of Dhamma in Motion

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying at Varanasi in the Game Refuge at Isipatana. There he addressed the group of five monks:
"There are these two extremes that are not to be indulged in by one who has gone forth. Which two? That which is devoted to sensual pleasure with reference to sensual objects: base, vulgar, common, ignoble, unprofitable; and that which is devoted to self-affliction: painful, ignoble, unprofitable. Avoiding both of these extremes, the middle way realized by the Tathagata — producing vision, producing knowledge — leads to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding.
"And what is the middle way realized by the Tathagata that — producing vision, producing knowledge — leads to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding? Precisely this Noble Eightfold Path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. This is the middle way realized by the Tathagata that — producing vision, producing knowledge — leads to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding.​


The Middle Way of the Noble Eightfold Path is the one between the extremes of self-indulgence and self-affliction. These are Buddha's words.

Buddha does not mention in it "begging of alms"; instead he mentions "right livelihood"; in any culture begging of alms is not the source of right livelihood.
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
Buddha does not mention in it "begging of alms"; instead he mentions "right livelihood"; in any culture begging of alms is not the source of right livelihood.
Actually, monks and nuns are not supposed to beg, except in extreme cases like where their robes are stolen. It is a offense for a monk or a nun to even prompt a layperson to offer them food. In short, they are not allowed to solicit offerings, except in emergencies.

Here is a link regarding rules regarding food:
Introduction to the Patimokkha Rules
 

Wannabe Yogi

Well-Known Member
I think Buddha did not support the vedas; and he did not support the prevailing Hindu system in any way.

Sorry but what Hindu system are you talking about. There is not and never been one Hindu System. Some Hindu beliefs are much closer to the Lord Buddha's then other Hindu beliefs. Parts of the Hindu system Buddha did reject. Many Hindu's also reject many parts of the System well before the Buddha. Even the concept of the Creator God was rejected by some Hindu's.
 

ratikala

Istha gosthi
If you take Buddhism at face value. The monks are not only begging. They are teaching the most useful thing in the world, the highest knowledge. Putting a end to suffering. This knowledge is well worth a little bit of leftovers. There was a give and take between those who took the food, and those who gave.


I hate to add to this missunderstanding but in many culuraly buddhist countries it is seen as ones duty to share ,..... that is SHARE !.... not hand out ones leftovers . many households cook enough to OFFER to the monks . please bear in mind that many with in the lay comunity have family members in the monestaries , and taking food to the monks each morning is something done out of love , it is accepted that one will not nececarily be able to give to ones own kin , but that one must give evenly this ensures that everyone practices simplicity and non attatchment , the monk accepts what is given with out preferance for who is giving it , also one must concider that not every monk goes out on alms rounds , some monks are supported by others who bring back their food which is shared .

simmilarly on festival days it is customary for families to bring presents of money and robes , the monk may accept them but generaly shares them amongst his brethrin .

I think it is very dangerous for us to apply our words and concepts upon different cultural mindsets , what we might perceive as begging is a behavior based on very different vallues .
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Lay Buddhists will feed Hindu monks and probably Christian monks too, if there are no Buddhist monks available to them.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Actually, monks and nuns are not supposed to beg, except in extreme cases like where their robes are stolen. It is a offense for a monk or a nun to even prompt a layperson to offer them food. In short, they are not allowed to solicit offerings, except in emergencies.

Here is a link regarding rules regarding food:
Introduction to the Patimokkha Rules

Thank you very much for your input.

Did Buddha himself fix the rules for the monks in his own words? Was Buddha himself a monk?

Please
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Sorry but what Hindu system are you talking about. There is not and never been one Hindu System. Some Hindu beliefs are much closer to the Lord Buddha's then other Hindu beliefs. Parts of the Hindu system Buddha did reject. Many Hindu's also reject many parts of the System well before the Buddha. Even the concept of the Creator God was rejected by some Hindu's.

Did Buddha ever spoke in favour of vedas? Did Buddha ever spoke in favour of vedic tradition, of whatever Hindu denomination?

Please
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
Thank you very much for your input.

Did Buddha himself fix the rules for the monks in his own words? Was Buddha himself a monk?

Please
Yes, Buddha himself did fix the rules in his own words, and yes, Buddha was a monk.

The texts regarding the rules for monks and nuns is called the Vinaya Pitaka.

Here is a source where you can download pdf's of the actual different volumes of texts, both in the original Pali and English translations.

Here is an excerpt of an article by a Buddhist monk which explains the origin for the rules for Buddhist monks and nuns:

Introduction to the Patimokkha Rules

The Buddha did not set out a code of rules all at once. Instead, he formulated rules one by one, in response to particular incidents. The Canon reports these incidents in each case, and often a knowledge of these "origin stories" can help in understanding the reasons behind the rules. For instance, the origin story to the rule forbidding lustful conduct between monks and women shows that the Buddha did not view women as somehow inferior or unclean. Rather, the rule comes from an incident where a monk was fondling the wife of a Brahman who had come to visit his hut, and the Buddha wanted women to feel safe in the knowledge that when visiting monasteries they would not be in danger of being molested.

Some of the stories are classics of Buddhist literature, and show a dry, understated sense of humor together with a perceptive insight into human foibles. The element of humor here is very important, for without it there can be no intelligent set of rules to govern human behavior.

As time passed, and the number of rules grew, some of the Buddha's followers, headed by Ven. Upali, gathered the major rules into a set code — the Patimokkha — that eventually contained 227 rules. The minor rules, which came to number several hundred, they gathered into chapters loosely organized according to topic, called Khandhakas.

The Patimokkha as we now have it is embedded in a text called the Sutta Vibhanga. This presents each rule, preceded by its origin story, and followed by what permutations, if any, it went through before reaching its final form. The rule is then analyzed into its component elements, to show how the factors of effort, object, perception, intention and result do or do not mitigate the penalty assigned by the rule. The discussion then concludes with a list of extenuating circumstances for which there is no offense in breaking the rule.​

It is interesting to note that while there is a wide variety of traditions practiced within Buddhism, the rules for monks and nuns are all very similar across all of the various Buddhist traditions.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Yes, Buddha himself did fix the rules in his own words, and yes, Buddha was a monk.

The texts regarding the rules for monks and nuns is called the Vinaya Pitaka.

Here is a source where you can download pdf's of the actual different volumes of texts, both in the original Pali and English translations.

Here is an excerpt of an article by a Buddhist monk which explains the origin for the rules for Buddhist monks and nuns:

Introduction to the Patimokkha Rules

The Buddha did not set out a code of rules all at once. Instead, he formulated rules one by one, in response to particular incidents. The Canon reports these incidents in each case, and often a knowledge of these "origin stories" can help in understanding the reasons behind the rules. For instance, the origin story to the rule forbidding lustful conduct between monks and women shows that the Buddha did not view women as somehow inferior or unclean. Rather, the rule comes from an incident where a monk was fondling the wife of a Brahman who had come to visit his hut, and the Buddha wanted women to feel safe in the knowledge that when visiting monasteries they would not be in danger of being molested.

Some of the stories are classics of Buddhist literature, and show a dry, understated sense of humor together with a perceptive insight into human foibles. The element of humor here is very important, for without it there can be no intelligent set of rules to govern human behavior.

As time passed, and the number of rules grew, some of the Buddha's followers, headed by Ven. Upali, gathered the major rules into a set code — the Patimokkha — that eventually contained 227 rules. The minor rules, which came to number several hundred, they gathered into chapters loosely organized according to topic, called Khandhakas.

The Patimokkha as we now have it is embedded in a text called the Sutta Vibhanga. This presents each rule, preceded by its origin story, and followed by what permutations, if any, it went through before reaching its final form. The rule is then analyzed into its component elements, to show how the factors of effort, object, perception, intention and result do or do not mitigate the penalty assigned by the rule. The discussion then concludes with a list of extenuating circumstances for which there is no offense in breaking the rule.​

It is interesting to note that while there is a wide variety of traditions practiced within Buddhism, the rules for monks and nuns are all very similar across all of the various Buddhist traditions.

Thanks for the information.
Regards
 

Wannabe Yogi

Well-Known Member
Here is a link regarding rules regarding food:
Introduction to the Patimokkha Rules

Very strict rules but taken food as offerings seem to be a given. Quotes from your site.

Accepting more than three bowlfuls of food that the donors prepared for their own use as presents or as provisions for a journey is a pācittiya offense. (Pc 34)

Eating staple or non-staple food that is not left-over, after having earlier in the day finished a meal during which one turned down an offer to eat further staple food, is a pācittiya offense. (Pc 35)

Eating staple or non-staple food in the period from noon till the next dawn is a pācittiya offense. (Pc 37)


I have seen Buddhists monks taking food from people in Thailand. Begging bowls are well known in many places.
 
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Wannabe Yogi

Well-Known Member
Did Buddha ever spoke in favour of vedas? Did Buddha ever spoke in favour of vedic tradition, of whatever Hindu denomination?

Please

My argument is not that Buddha excepted the Vedas. My argument is that Buddhists and Hindu's do have a philosophic over lap.

But yes I seems that in some texts the Lord Buddha. Excepted parts of the Vedas just rejected its absolute authority.

The Vinaya Pitaka's section Anguttara Nikaya: Panchaka Nipata says that it was on this alteration of the true Veda that the Buddha refused to pay respect to the Vedas of his time.

Vedas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

dyanaprajna2011

Dharmapala
Yogi, I do want to make one correction, but not to what you said, but the Wiki article: the Anguttara Nikaya is part of the Sutta Pitaka, not the Vinaya. But you're pretty close on your analysis. The Buddha never really outright rejected the Vedas themselves, he rejected their absolute authority, and what he seen as some improper interpretations of them from the bhramins, and particularly the caste system and animal sacrifice.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
My argument is not that Buddha excepted the Vedas. My argument is that Buddhists and Hindu's do have a philosophic over lap.

But yes I seems that in some texts the Lord Buddha. Excepted parts of the Vedas just rejected its absolute authority.

The Vinaya Pitaka's section Anguttara Nikaya: Panchaka Nipata says that it was on this alteration of the true Veda that the Buddha refused to pay respect to the Vedas of his time.

Vedas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thanks for providing the information.

How would you see a sentence mentioned below in the Wikipedia?:

^ Y. Masih (2000) In : A Comparative Study of Religions, Motilal Banarsidass Publ : Delhi, ISBN 81-208-0815-0 Page 18. "There is no evidence to show that Jainism and Buddhism ever subscribed to vedic sacrifices, vedic deities or caste. They are parallel or native religions of India and have contributed to much to the growth of even classical Hinduism of the present times."

Historical Vedic religion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

9Westy9

Sceptic, Libertarian, Egalitarian
Premium Member
***Mod Post***
This is a quick reminder that the comparative religion forum is not for debates​
 
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