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why are you a creationists?

Discussion in 'Evolution Vs. Creationism' started by robtex, Feb 26, 2006.

  1. Steve

    Steve Active Member

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    Hi all,
    Im a creationist because i believe the Bible and i believe the evidence better supports the biblical account of history eg Global flood, natural selection filtering existing information, improbablility of life even starting without a creator, irreducible complex systems etc..
    matter/energy came from somwhere - combine that with the incredible order we find it in today (eg human brain - our planets position, mass, moon, sun etc) it just seems so obvious that their is a Creator.

    Ive discussed other reasons i believe the Bible in other threads, eg Apostles dying for what they knew to be true makes more sense then them dying for what they knew to be a lie (the nature of their claims dosnt allow for them to be just doing it for a vague belief - eg eating/drinking/talking with the ressurected Christ etc. Also things ive personally seen eg deliverence, feeling Gods presence.
     
  2. Opethian

    Opethian Active Member

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    1. Give me one piece of evidence that supports a global flood?
    2. Yes natural selection filters existing information, but also new information, unless you don't "believe" in mutations...
    3. Given the amount of time, the substances that were available on the earth during the age of the arisal of life, and the conditions, it's very probable that it did start off without a creator.
    4. There are no irreducibly complex systems, only people that don't want to go through the effort of completely analysing it and finding a real solution for it.

    Leave that to astrophysicians.

    feeling gods presence is just emotions playing a trick on you. You may believe you are feeling some divine presence, but it's all just chemical cascades in your brain causing the effect.
     
  3. Steve

    Steve Active Member

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    http://icr.org/index.php?module=articles&action=view&ID=98
    http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v15/i1/flood.asp
    http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v25/i2/sisters.asp.


    I believe mutations happen, i just dont believe they can even come close to creating the amont of information we see in the DNA of all life forms on our planet. Esspecially with the diversity we see and systems that are irreducibly complex. Even just a butterfly with its metamorphosis is more then enough to make me skeptical of anyone claiming random mutations provided the information in its DNA. Then when i step back from that one example and consider the human Brain, our sight, touch, immune system etc - the intricate biological system behind photosynthesis. It seems so obvious and when people just say random chance created all this and natural selection killed whatever didnt work it just seems absurd.


    This is simply not true, id like to know where you got this idea from. Do you have any idea of the steps that would need to happen for life to form from non-life??
    Also id disagree on your timeframe too.


    Of course their arnt, because the evolutionist just invents little stories about what the purpose of individual parts were until the whole system existed and then says once it all existed it started working the way it now does.
    Take the bacterial flagelium for example, ive only heard pathetic rescue attempt fairytales about how the 25 plus proteins perhaps all had different functions until just by chance they all came together and the system happened to work together as a whole, so well infact that as time went on the other functions wernt needed and we are just left with the bacterial flagelium. Such story telling could explain away any evidence, it wouldnt matter what was presented. People always say evolution is science because it is falisifiable yet in reality this is not true because the evlutionist just invents stories to salvage the theory.


    No thats ok, i have enough common sense to know that nothing cant explode into everything, and again when i combine that with the incredible order that the matter/energy is in the answer is obvious. I dont need an astrophysician who has already decided that there is no Creator, seen some redshift, and therefor concluded that everything came from nothing and has been expanding ever since. Consider reading "Dismantling the Big Bang" if you really are interested- http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/089...lance&n=283155


    Of course you know more about what ive experienced then I do, how stupid of me to share some things ive seen and felt.
    Have you ever considered that perhaps you are wrong? That all those wacky Christians out there who say they have personaly seen people being delivered from evil spirits or have felt Gods presence or even been healed by him could maybe be actually reporting what really happened?
     
  4. Super Universe

    Super Universe Defender of God

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    Can you cite one example where matter has created itself from nothing?
     
  5. Opethian

    Opethian Active Member

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    Nothing more than creationists raping science, twisting facts, putting things out of context and just blatantly making mistakes.
    I suggest you visit http://www.talkorigins.org/ to find refutations of your "evidence".

    There is nothing absurd about it. What we see today is so marvellous and so complex that it seems designed, just because only if it worked so well, it could survive. If it had been specifically designed, every organism on this earth would be close to perfection, have no mistakes, which is definitely not the case with what we see here on the planet today. Every organism has flaws, and can usually only thrive in a few types of environments, that's because it is the environment that has had a selective effect on the organism's evolution, so the organism seems "designed" for its environment, when in fact it is the opposite.
    I suggest you pick up a good biology book and read up on the subject. The way creationists describe evolution is commonly full of misconceptions and lack of knowledge on the subject.


    I have a good idea of the steps that would need to happen. Remember, life is just organised non-life. Ever heard of Miller's experiment? Sure, it doesn't explain everything, but if such a simple experiment can already create so many of the molecules necessary for life, how can the idea of something like this happening over huge periods of time seem implausible?

    You're behaving like a typical creationist with all that oversimplifying. We don't just invent stories to salvage the theory, we use facts and knowledge to get our results. But since you like oversimplifications:
    Creationists say: "I don't understand it, and I don't feel like studying to get more knowledge on it, so I'll just say it's false!"



    Enjoy your ignorance.

    I have considered that yes, but everything I see points to me being right. The human mind is a powerful thing, and it's the best tool to fool yourself with.
     
  6. Opethian

    Opethian Active Member

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    No, but can you give me one example where matter has created itself from a god?
    You see, this is not really what I'm talking about. The big bang theory is far from being as good a theory as evolution. I don't care if you don't really accept the big bang. What does bother me are people that don't accept the evolution theory, that think the earth is 6000 years old and some god poofed us all on the planet.
     
  7. Steve

    Steve Active Member

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    It wouldnt matter what evidence i put forth, you would just ignore it because of the source and what it supports. Do you suppose i havnt been to talkorigins.org Ive been there many times or how bout http://www.evowiki.org/index.php/Main_Page do you like that one too?


    As a Biblical Creationist i believe this creation is cursed, resulting in death, disease etc this is why their are mistakes etc

    An organism suits its enviroment because natural selection favored its genetic traits more then others etc, so natural selection filtered out what best suits the enviroment. It does not create the organism or its features that help it survive, for that you have to rely on your random mutations and this is a joke. To suppose that mutations produced something that seemed desiged for its eviroment aswell as many intermediates and slight offshoots along the way that were all killed off by natural selection is just a fairy tale. At the end of the day you are just relying on random mutations to create the organism so natural selection can favor it out of whatever else random mutations created.


    :banghead3 I cant believe you brought up the Miller experiment!!!! This just demonstrates your ignorance on abiogenesis and how little this experiment really accomplished. Anyone who seriously upholds the Miller experiment as some sort of proof is just showing how bankrupt the theory is.


    lol, im oversimplifying?! coming from someone who holds the miller experiment dear. Coming from someone who would have no problem believing 25 plus proteins needed for the bacterial flagelium must have all had different functions in the past and could then just form into its own working system all via random processes.
    You are behaving like a typical evolutionist and oversimplifying thats all evolutionists seem to do when faced with a problem wether it be irreducible complexity or the origin of life.
    Evolutionists say: "I don't understand it but I know theres no God, so I'll just make up a story and say that its true!"



    No you enjoy yours, ill continue to enjoy common sense. Nothing didnt explode into everything and then form into life and then evolve to the point where it could comprehend itself.


    What was it that you see that points you to being right? What has convinced you that all matter/energy can just explode out of nowhere? What convinces you that after this happened that life really could have started by itself? What makes you so sure that matter was able to "evolve" to the point of comprehending itself?
    What makes you so sure that all the people who have ever reported somthing supernatural are wrong or lying, why do you believe the apostles made up such a lie yet were stil willing to die horrible deaths for it?
     
  8. scitsofreaky

    scitsofreaky Active Member

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    And you don't? Source does matter, and I think we should scrutinize every source we come across.
    http://www.chem.tufts.edu/science/FrankSteiger/elders-flood-report.htm has a good list, IMO, of questions/problems yet to be answered by creationists about the flood.
    The evidence is what makes me so sure. I want to make it clear, though, that I don't think that matter evoloved to a point, that is, progresses to a certain goal. Evolution has shown no tendancy for progression, with its mode(bacteria) remaining the same throughout time (Gould, Full House, 1996).
    What makes you so sure it didn't evolove?
    It isn't a matter of belief that mutations happen, we know they do, we watch can watch them happen.
    It isn't very logical for the amount of information in our DNA to come by mutation if the world is just 6000 years old, which I assume is what you believe. The problem is a lack of evidence for the earth being that young (the closest any argument I've seen is 10000 years, which is close, but that was a minimum and it wasn't a good argument). And given the time accepted geological age of the earth, it seems perfectly logical that mutations could produce the amount of information in DNA.
    Also, when we look at human DNA, we find that the vast majority (something like 90-95% if I remember correctly) is actually retroviral. What this means is that most of our DNA didn't come about from mutations, but was inserted, throughout the history of our ancestors. And even more interesting (to me at least) is how they show up heirarchially in our branch of the tree of life (I can email a pdf of a study to anyone interested).
     
  9. Super Universe

    Super Universe Defender of God

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    I absolutely positively accept the idea of the big bang. I also accept the theory of evolution. Scientists are finding the clues to how God created the universe.

    The universe is so much more than we know, thousands of times bigger than what we believe it to be and more complex. It's a wonderful thing.

    I remember asking the same questions you are asking now. The one that always blew my mind is this one: If God did create the universe then where did God come from? And what created that which created Him? Everything has a beginning but what was before that?

    Simply that you are here leads me to believe that you are going in the right direction. Don't change a thing. Keep asking, keep debating. The answers have a way of finding you but only if you look hard enough, if you really, really want to know them.
     
  10. Opethian

    Opethian Active Member

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    Kept giving an error but after trying to post 5 times I noticed that my posts were posted anyhow... :149:
     
  11. Opethian

    Opethian Active Member

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    Kept giving an error but after trying to post 5 times I noticed that my posts were posted anyhow... :149:
     
  12. Opethian

    Opethian Active Member

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    Kept giving an error but after trying to post 5 times I noticed that my posts were posted anyhow... :149:
     
  13. Opethian

    Opethian Active Member

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    I won't ignore it because of what the source supports, but because the source has been known to deceive and provide faulty information.



    Why is it a joke? Why is it a fairy tale? You make statements, but you don't explain what leads you to think them. I see nothing wrong on random mutations creating random traits on which the environment selects. Why do you think life on earth is so diverse? By the way, point mutations are not the only means to get new DNA information.


    It doesn't demonstrate ignorance of any kind on abiogenesis. It was one of the first experiments that actually accomplished something, and seen the simplicity of the experiment (as I already said), it is a remarkable feat. What you are giving above is again statements without support. Why would I be ignorant? Why do you think this experiment accomplished very little?


    Well maybe it seems to you that I am oversimplifying because you have no clue of the way this could actually happen. It is when you have a deeper knowledge of genetics, biochemistry, evolution etc... that you can see how all the pieces fit and that something that seems impossible can actually happen, no matter how complicated it is. There's nothing simple about that.



    Give me one example where our explanation is more simple than "goddidit" ? You are just talking out of your *** now.



    Utter piffle.



    Another nice example of your oversimplification and lack of knowledge on the actual theories that ly behind your ridiculous little version of them that you think to understand.



    1. I have never stated that I am absolutely sure of the way the universe started out. I am not going to try to defend the big bang theory, although I think it's the best theory we have, but that's not what my point was in the first place.

    2. What I was talking about is evolution and abiogenesis. What convinced me to accept the fact that life really could have started by itself and evolve is a massive pile of evidence in my biochemistry, biology and geology books. You see, you can find evidence in any part of the large spectrum of science, and it all fits. What I also see is creation science desperately trying to attack the real science, and failing miserably. The 'evidence' they have is nothing but deceiving, out of context, and just plain faulty bullsh*t.


    Because in every such case I've witnessed, there was a perfectly logical explanation for it. There always is, it's only up to you to decide if you're going to try to find it, or just give up and say that it was something supernatural to compensate for your lack of the capability to explain it.
    I guess what you meant in that last sentence is that I would risk to go to hell after I die? Well, don’t worry, the chances of that happening are FAR smaller than the chances of us all ‘EVILving’ through random mutations and natural selection from one common ancestor that originated out of dead matter.
     
  14. roli

    roli Born Again,Spirit Filled

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    This may not fit into some of the rational thought processes out there,but from a born again christains belief and experience believing the creation account did not proceed my belief ,faith and trust in God for forgivenes of sins.

    On the contrary, I first saw that I was a sinner,lost in sin, separated from God and in need of redemption and forgiveness and that by believing Jesus died in my place I could have the assurance that I was justified,forgiven and heaven my home.

    Just from the sounds of that ,it would seem like a fictional little fary tale,but it was from that personal experience and intimate relationship with Jesus Christ that God indwelt me as a believer and all those who trust Him,giving me a supernatural impartation and manifestation of His presence which confirms the truth of His word, the life of Jesus, Heaven and hell ,etc but more importantly in conjunction to this post ,the creation account.

    That presence is His Holy Spirit,I know ,it never comes into the conversation, as far as I have seen in evolution vs creation debates, but I would be ignoring the essence,power and the source of this absolute,confirmation and assurance that what God says, is true.Including the creation accounts.

    If it was just my opinion and strong suggestions, with verifiable arguements, I would adapt into this forum or any forum for that matter without hesitation and be accepted and respected by the same,because I would be operating on my own abilities,intellect,logic,reasoning.what this forum is fueled from.

    Not that they are'nt essential part of who we are,but in and of themselves they are a limited resource,reliant on the abilities of finite man, unlike the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit that knows all things and is come from the father and that same Spirit comes into every true born agian believer.

    Therefore why do I believe in creation,
    1) the varification and assurance the Holy Spirit has placed in me confirms the truth of God's word.Creation,Heaven ,Hell,Judgement,punishment,etc
    2) The fact that it takes more faith to believe in evolution than creation and that believing things just evolved from nothing,big bang,etc is an insult to our intelligence.
    As nothing we see presently with our eyes in this modern and technological age has ever just evolved macro style from nothing,from a pencil,to the shuttle.
    There is intelligent design,logic,planning,purpose and intend behind every invention of man,to believe these inventions somehow evolved on there own ,is to me absurb to say the least.
    It's ironic that the rationale mind of our day continues to refute the creation by intelligent design but won't use that same logic to refute the invention of a bobby pin had intlligent design.
    Is that the epitome of a bias position,makes you wonder what they may be afraid of if they dare admit,confess and recognise an intlligent design in the universe.

    That He may actually require something we are'nt willing to surrender or subject ourselves to just yet, such as his standards, His boundaries,His morality and we therefore continue in our indulgent lifestyle,being immoral,perverted,greedy,selfish,idolatrous and maintaining a lustful gratification of our pleasures.

    It seems benefical to spend one's life refuting such a creator,who would condemn such actions and require consequences for such behavior.

    Not that there are'nt historical, scientific and archaeological proofs,of creation account and that evolution has more holes in it then our solar system,but if I as a Christain were just left to believe or disbelieve in God, creation etc, for the mere fact of believeing based on fuzzy littles feelings with no supernatural confirmation ,I would be left to my own rational thought .

    How futile that sounds,especially now that I have the Holy Spirit
     
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