Who?

[InChrist]

Who are these passages referring to?



All who see me mock me; they hurl insults, shaking their heads: ‘He trusts in the LORD; let the LORD rescue him. Let him deliver him, since he delights in him.”
(Psalm 22:7-8)
“But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are
healed.” (Isaiah 53:5)
“Even my close friend, whom I trusted, he who shared my bread, has lifted up his heel against me. (Psalm 41:9)
“They have pierced my hands and my feet.” (Psalm 22:16)
“Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.”(Isaiah 53:12)
“They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.”(Zechariah 12:10)

 

[Ebionite]

(Psalm 22:7-8)

Someone with low self-esteem:

But I [am] a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
Psalms 22:6

The crucified man:

For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
Psalms 22:16

They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
Psalms 22:18

(Isaiah 53:5)

The rescued/exiled:

He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
Isaiah 53:8

The righteous servant who was rewarded:

He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Therefore will I divide him [a portion] with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
Isaiah 53:11-12

(Psalm 41:9)

Referenced from John, it's about the one who was betrayed.

I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am [he].
John 13:18-19

And he answered and said, He that dippeth [his] hand with me in the dish, the same shall betray me.
Matthew 26:23

(Zechariah 12:10)

The word.

 

[Firenze]

Who are these passages referring to?



All who see me mock me; they hurl insults, shaking their heads: ‘He trusts in the LORD; let the LORD rescue him. Let him deliver him, since he delights in him.”
(Psalm 22:7-8)
“But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are
healed.” (Isaiah 53:5)
“Even my close friend, whom I trusted, he who shared my bread, has lifted up his heel against me. (Psalm 41:9)
“They have pierced my hands and my feet.” (Psalm 22:16)
“Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.”(Isaiah 53:12)
“They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.”(Zechariah 12:10)

Thanx for bringing these up. They are evidence of the frauds committed by the NT authors to pretend Jesus was the Messiah.

As you've already admitted that the gospel authors took a minimum of 20 years to begin writing this 'Greatest Story Ever Told' - yet have given no explanation for why they would wait so long - I can answer that question.
The obvious answer is that they spent those years and decades combing through the Tanakh to co-opt prophesies clearly speaking of other characters and claim they are about Jesus. Isaiah 53 above is an obvious one. Jewish scholars all know that Israel is the 'suffering servant' in this story - but the fraudsters seized on the 'pierced for our transgressions' and spliced it into their crucifixion narrative. The erroneous virgin birth story already explained to you is another. Keep in mind, we have Zero history of the life of Jesus or the alleged crucifixion prior to the NT, so it was quite an easy thing to start with stories like the ones you cite above - which again, are not Messianic per the actual experts on the subject - and weave the Jesus story into them. How easy to claim his 'garments were rent' as part of a crucifixion when you already have an unrelated OT story that uses those same exact words? In short, every new found attribute showing Jesus as Messiah is the result of the fraudulent perversion of OT scripture that had nothing to do with the Messiah. In fact, THE ONLY agreement in attributes between the Jews and gospel authors is the requirement to be from the line of David - and the NT genealogies are a laughable mess. I've already shown you the actual attributes of the Messiah as written by the OT experts, which do not include a virgin birth, a crucifixion, a resurrection, a birth in Bethlehem, or residence in Nazareth - or any divine attributes. You reject them. Of course you do. You're trapped now, having given your life to a fraud, you're not expected to admit it now.

But let's consider the big picture of what your religion forces you to believe:

- That the Jews who wrote the OT were such befuddled morons regarding their own religion that they 'missed' the virgin birth, 'missed' the crucifixion, 'missed' the resurrection, 'missed' the Messiah being born in Bethlehem, 'missed' his being from Nazareth, and .....yikes.... 'missed' him being the DIVINE SON OF THEIR OWN GOD.

To believe this requires a much more credulous mind than I can muster.

 

[InChrist]

Thanx for bringing these up. They are evidence of the frauds committed by the NT authors to pretend Jesus was the Messiah.

As you've already admitted that the gospel authors took a minimum of 20 years to begin writing this 'Greatest Story Ever Told' - yet have given no explanation for why they would wait so long - I can answer that question.
The obvious answer is that they spent those years and decades combing through the Tanakh to co-opt prophesies clearly speaking of other characters and claim they are about Jesus. Isaiah 53 above is an obvious one. Jewish scholars all know that Israel is the 'suffering servant' in this story - but the fraudsters seized on the 'pierced for our transgressions' and spliced it into their crucifixion narrative. The erroneous virgin birth story already explained to you is another. Keep in mind, we have Zero history of the life of Jesus or the alleged crucifixion prior to the NT, so it was quite an easy thing to start with stories like the ones you cite above - which again, are not Messianic per the actual experts on the subject - and weave the Jesus story into them. How easy to claim his 'garments were rent' as part of a crucifixion when you already have an unrelated OT story that uses those same exact words? In short, every new found attribute showing Jesus as Messiah is the result of the fraudulent perversion of OT scripture that had nothing to do with the Messiah. In fact, THE ONLY agreement in attributes between the Jews and gospel authors is the requirement to be from the line of David - and the NT genealogies are a laughable mess. I've already shown you the actual attributes of the Messiah as written by the OT experts, which do not include a virgin birth, a crucifixion, a resurrection, a birth in Bethlehem, or residence in Nazareth - or any divine attributes. You reject them. Of course you do. You're trapped now, having given your life to a fraud, you're not expected to admit it now.

But let's consider the big picture of what your religion forces you to believe:

- That the Jews who wrote the OT were such befuddled morons regarding their own religion that they 'missed' the virgin birth, 'missed' the crucifixion, 'missed' the resurrection, 'missed' the Messiah being born in Bethlehem, 'missed' his being from Nazareth, and .....yikes.... 'missed' him being the DIVINE SON OF THEIR OWN GOD.

To believe this requires a much more credulous mind than I can muster.

Religion doesn’t force me to believe anything, simply because I do not follow a religion. Religion is a dangerous distraction and certainly can and has been used by controlling, narcissist leaders to manipulate others, in my view.
I have a living relationship with Jesus Christ based in love and freedom; real love cannot be forced.

In no way do I consider the Jews who wrote the OT “befuddled morons” (your words, not mine). After all, those who first came to realize Who Jesus was…were ALL Jews who had and knew the OT. Nevertheless, just as in any organized religious, political or other entity, corruption can occur. So, I’m of the view that many of the Jewish religious LEADERS of Jesus’ day didn’t “miss”, but were in purposeful denial concerning Who Jesus was and wanted Him destroyed to retain their position of power and control over the people.

 

[Ebionite]

Jewish scholars all know that Israel is the 'suffering servant'

Bollocks. Israel is associated with a servant, but never with the righteous servant of Isaiah 53.

 

[Ebionite]

and wanted Him destroyed to retain their position of power and control over the people.

According to Caiaphas it was because of a perceived existential threat.

And one of them, [named] Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
John 11:49-50

 

[InChrist]

You have

According to Caiaphas it was because of a perceived existential threat.

And one of them, [named] Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
John 11:49-50

You have a valid point and pertinent scripture reference. Yet, the previous verses do seem to indicate that the chief priests and Pharisees were concerned about “their place” or position, if too many people believed in Jesus.


“That then the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered a council and said, “What shall we do? For this Man works many signs. 48 If we let Him alone like this, everyone will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and nation.”
John 11:47-48

 

[Ebionite]

You have

You have a valid point and pertinent scripture reference. Yet, the previous verses do seem to indicate that the chief priests and Pharisees were concerned about “their place” or position, if too many people believed in Jesus.


“That then the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered a council and said, “What shall we do? For this Man works many signs. 48 If we let Him alone like this, everyone will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and nation.”
John 11:47-48

Yes, as religious leaders the issues of political power and survival of the nation would be inseparable.

 

[Firenze]

Bollocks. Israel is associated with a servant, but never with the righteous servant of Isaiah 53.

I have spoken with dozens of Jewish rabbis over the last 50 years that affirm that you are wrong. Bollocks indeed.

 

[Ebionite]

I have spoken with dozens of Jewish rabbis over the last 50 years that affirm that you are wrong. Bollocks indeed.

You misunderstood them. The Rabbis do not claim that Israel was the righteous servant.

 

[Firenze]

You misunderstood them. The Rabbis do not claim that Israel was the righteous servant.

No, I didn’t.
Yes, they do.

Who is God’s Suffering Servant? The Rabbinic Interpretation of Isaiah 53 - Outreach Judaism

Despite strong objections from conservative Christian apologists, the prevailing rabbinic interpretation of Isaiah 53 ascribes the “servant” to the nation of Israel [...]

outreachjudaism.org

 

[Ebionite]

No, I didn’t.
Yes, they do.

Learn to read. Righteous and suffering are not the same thing.

 

[Firenze]

Learn to read. Righteous and suffering are not the same thing.

I will when you do. The citation covers both.

 

[Ebionite]

I will when you do. The citation covers both.

No it doesn't. AFAIK the Rabbis never described Israel as righteous. From your link:

the prevailing rabbinic interpretation of Isaiah 53 ascribes the “servant” to the nation of Israel

 

[Firenze]

No it doesn't. AFAIK the Rabbis never described Israel as righteous. From your link:

I don’t know if they did or not. But they sure do consider all 4 suffering servant sections to be about the nation of Israel - and not about any individual. This citation shows the translation error that led the uninformed to think 53 was about the Messiahs Atonement, and the error that shows no individual - Messiah or other - was being referred to.

Isaiah 53 and the “Suffering Servant.”

Missionaries misleadingly assert that the entire chapter 53 of the book of Isaiah refers to Jesus as the “Suffering Servant” of God who dies for the sins of the world. Someone could easily be fooled to believe this argument if Isaiah is read out of context and without a proper translation.

jewsforjudaism.org

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Who are these passages referring to?



All who see me mock me; they hurl insults, shaking their heads: ‘He trusts in the LORD; let the LORD rescue him. Let him deliver him, since he delights in him.”
(Psalm 22:7-8)

David. If a a psalms begins by telling you it is a psalm of David, it means that either David wrote it, or that it was written for/about David.

“But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are
healed.” (Isaiah 53:5)

The people of Israel. The motif of the servant is used throughout Isaiah, and 3x Isaiah identifies the servant as Israel.

“Even my close friend, whom I trusted, he who shared my bread, has lifted up his heel against me. (Psalm 41:9)

David

“They have pierced my hands and my feet.” (Psalm 22:16)

David

“Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.”(Isaiah 53:12)

People of Israel.

“They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.”(Zechariah 12:10)

We don't know yet, as this person has not yet been born and the event has not yet taken place. It is not the messiah, in case you are wondering. Best discussion of Zechariah 12 is

 

[Firenze]

Religion doesn’t force me to believe anything, simply because I do not follow a religion. Religion is a dangerous distraction and certainly can and has been used by controlling, narcissist leaders to manipulate others, in my view.
I have a living relationship with Jesus Christ based in love and freedom; real love cannot be forced.

In no way do I consider the Jews who wrote the OT “befuddled morons” (your words, not mine). After all, those who first came to realize Who Jesus was…were ALL Jews who had and knew the OT. Nevertheless, just as in any organized religious, political or other entity, corruption can occur. So, I’m of the view that many of the Jewish religious LEADERS of Jesus’ day didn’t “miss”, but were in purposeful denial concerning Who Jesus was and wanted Him destroyed to retain their position of power and control over the people.

Then let's review:

According to the Torah, the Messiah will be:

• a male descendant of the Jewish King David
• human - he will have a human birth and human parents
• a perfect teacher of God’s law
• a great political leader - inspirational and a good judge
• able to rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem
• ruler over humanity - but he will rule with kindness
• the bringer of peace to the world
• able to unite humanity
• establish Gods kingdom on earth

Which of these is the Torah wrong about, if any?

 

[Ebionite]

I don’t know if they did or not. But they sure do consider all 4 suffering servant sections to be about the nation of Israel - and not about any individual.

The text from your link doesn't support that.

 

[Firenze]

The text from your link doesn't support that.

Of course it does.

 

[Ebionite]

Of course it does.

You have no facts to support that.