Who?

[Firenze]

You have no facts to support that.

The facts have been presented for you to either refute or acknowledge.

The first claim is that it is an error to translate Is 53:3 as "He was wounded FOR our transgression" in order to falsely claim vicarious atonement - with the accurate translation being "He (Israel) was wounded BECAUSE OF our (the nations) transgression.

The 2nd claim is that it is an error to translate 53:8 as "For the transgression of my people HE WAS stricken", as the accurate translation is "...THEY WERE stricken..."

Finally, a very good question is asked regarding why Peter would rebuke Jesus for saying he was going to Jerusalem to be killed and resurrected after 3 days - "If, indeed he is the promised messiah, then Peter, no doubt familiar with Isaiah 53, should have had no problem. Yet, since neither he, nor any other apostle of Jesus knew of any strange concept of Messiah suffering, dying, and being resurrected, they did not see Isaiah 53 as being a definitive passage containing information defining the “suffering servant” and vicarious atonement role of Messiah.

Which of these claims do you feel able to refute? Or is your claim of 'no facts' being presented simply your retreat?

 

[Ebionite]

The facts have been presented for you to either refute or acknowledge.

What facts, specifically?

 

[Firenze]

What facts, specifically?

So, retreat it is.

 

[Ebionite]

So, retreat it is.

I'm not the one who just brought new claims to the table after being asked for facts that support a previous claim (post #19).

 

[Ebionite]

Isaiah 53 above is an obvious one. Jewish scholars all know that Israel is the 'suffering servant' in this story

It must be wonderful for you to be omniscient like that. The idea that Israel was a harlot isn't unknown to Jewish scholars:

Though thou, Israel, play the harlot, [yet] let not Judah offend; and come not ye unto Gilgal, neither go ye up to Bethaven, nor swear, YHWH liveth.
Hosea 4:15

I was talking about the righteous servant (suffering is described in both Isaiah 53 and Psalm 35).

He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Isaiah 53:11

The righteous servant is also mentioned in Psalm 35:

Let them shout for joy, and be glad, that favour my righteous cause: yea, let them say continually, Let YHWH be magnified, which hath pleasure in the prosperity of his servant.
Psalms 35:27

The idea that the righteous servant is rewarded is also found in Isaiah 53:

Therefore will I divide him [a portion] with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
Isaiah 53:12

 

[InChrist]

Then let's review:

According to the Torah, the Messiah will be:

• a male descendant of the Jewish King David
• human - he will have a human birth and human parents
• a perfect teacher of God’s law
• a great political leader - inspirational and a good judge
• able to rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem
• ruler over humanity - but he will rule with kindness
• the bringer of peace to the world
• able to unite humanity
• establish Gods kingdom on earth

Which of these is the Torah wrong about, if any?

None actually, except that because the Messiah will be human does not rule out that He cannot also be fully God- God’s Son. Nor does your list or the scriptures necessitate that everything must occur or be accomplished all at once according to human expectation, rather than God’s plan and timeframe.
(I.e. rebuilt temple in Jerusalem, establishing world peace… which I believe will happen soon ( Temple during Tribulation period), peace and world rule after Jesus Christ returns in glory.

If you are looking for merely a human messiah to fulfill your list above, then I am afraid you will be deceived by the false antichrist who will come upon the world scene and claim to be the messiah.

 

[Firenze]

I'm not the one who just brought new claims to the table after being asked for facts that support a previous claim (post #19).

That claim was already supported in the link. The 2nd link added a concurring view on 53, along with more texture and evidence that the NT authors clearly didn't see 53 as having anything to do with the Messiah - until they did. So, between the 2 links, there is one principal claim - that Is 53 is about the nation of Israel, and not the Messiah. It merely speaks to the shock that will be experienced by the nations that persecuted Israel when the Messiah DOES show up and brings them all to Judaism. So again, can you refute the claim or not?

 

[Firenze]

None actually, except that because the Messiah will be human does not rule out that He cannot also be fully God- God’s Son. Nor does your list or the scriptures necessitate that everything must occur or be accomplished all at once according to human expectation, rather than God’s plan and timeframe.
(I.e. rebuilt temple in Jerusalem, establishing world peace… which I believe will happen soon ( Temple during Tribulation period), peace and world rule after Jesus Christ returns in glory.

If you are looking for merely a human messiah to fulfill your list above, then I am afraid you will be deceived by the false antichrist who will come upon the world scene and claim to be the messiah.

Well, you can't have it both ways. Since you agree with the attributes posted earlier - that the Messiah will be 'fully human, with a human mother AND father - then Jesus having a human mother and NOT a human father excludes Jesus as Messiah. And a 'merely human Messiah' is precisely what Jewish eschatology describes. It's why they rejected Jesus as soon as divine attributes were ascribed to him. And they also do NOT describe a Messiah that shows up.... doesn't accomplish 7 of the 9 things charged to him..... and therefore has to come back and try again.

I think your concern for anyone being deceived is misplaced. I'm pretty sure if someone claims to be the Messiah - and doesn't do what the Messiah is prophesied to do - who exactly would be fooled?

Yeah, between the actual experts on the Messiah - and the latter day pretenders that have already been exposed for the fraud of the virgin birth claim, the fraud of the suffering servant claim, the fraud of the Bethlehem claim, and the fraud of the Nazarene claim - Imma stick with honest ones.

 

[Ebionite]

That claim was already supported in the link.

There's no reason to believe that.

The 2nd link added a concurring view on 53, along with more texture and evidence that the NT authors clearly didn't see 53 as having anything to do with the Messiah - until they did. So, between the 2 links, there is one principal claim - that Is 53 is about the nation of Israel, and not the Messiah. It merely speaks to the shock that will be experienced by the nations that persecuted Israel when the Messiah DOES show up and brings them all to Judaism. So again, can you refute the claim or not?

Yet another fact-free response.

 

[Firenze]

There's no reason to believe that.


Yet another fact-free response.

You mean claims you can’t refute. Got it.

 

[Ebionite]

You mean claims you can’t refute. Got it.

The burden of proof is yours, not mine. Claims that have no supporting facts are worthless.

 

[Firenze]

The burden of proof is yours, not mine. Claims that have no supporting facts are worthless.

You’ve seen the facts presented. The claim that Is 53 dies not refer to the Messiah is factual claim. If the claim was not factual - you would have refuted it. But since you obviously are unable to - and likely embarrassed by that fact - you now want to pretend factual claims are not what they are. I accept your retreat from the field of honest discourse.

 

[Ebionite]

You’ve seen the facts presented.

Nothing relevant. You conflated "righteous servant" with "servant".