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Who was the Pharaoh of the Bible and Quran

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
No offence taken my friend.

Matthew 28:19 does not state there are three gods, but presents God as existing as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Notice that it states in the name (not names) of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

The verses below do not contradict Matthew 28:19, they are all speaking of the same God.


Looking forward to it. :)

It's either there are three gods or only one God, make up your mind. The trinity is a flawed concept and you know it, that's why it has been rejected by many Christians.
 

TG123456

Active Member
It's either there are three gods or only one God, make up your mind. The trinity is a flawed concept and you know it, that's why it has been rejected by many Christians.
There is only one God, and every Christian believes that. When have I ever said there are three gods?

Those who believe He is a Trinity believe that He exists as three persons- as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. It does not mean that each of these is a separate god.

Do you believe that it is impossible for God to be one and yet exist as three? Because something is impossible for us, is it impossible for Him?


Instead of stating that God exists as three persons, I would rather say He reveals Himself to humanity in three forms- as the Father, as Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. I don't believe it is impossible for Him to exist as three persons, just as it is not impossible for Him to be Most Merciful and the Avenger (2 of His 99 attributes in Islam, if I am not mistaken) at the same time. Just because His attributes and nature may sound contradictory to human beings, it doesn't mean they are for Him.
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
There is only one God, and every Christian believes that. When have I ever said there are three gods?

Those who believe He is a Trinity believe that He exists as three persons- as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. It does not mean that each of these is a separate god.

Do you believe that it is impossible for God to be one and yet exist as three? Because something is impossible for us, is it impossible for Him?


Instead of stating that God exists as three persons, I would rather say He reveals Himself to humanity in three forms- as the Father, as Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. I don't believe it is impossible for Him to exist as three persons, just as it is not impossible for Him to be Most Merciful and the Avenger (2 of His 99 attributes in Islam, if I am not mistaken) at the same time. Just because His attributes and nature may sound contradictory to human beings, it doesn't mean they are for Him.

It clearly contradict with the first commandment. Allah never wanted for people to worship any but Him.

Did any of ALL the Prophets mentioned in the OT or NT up to Jesus mentioned the trinity? No. Therefore, it's an invention influenced by pagan practices. It all started from the Apostle’s Creed which while doesn't clearly mention any divinity but it was later been expanded to include the divinity of Jesus by the introduction of the Nicene Creed to establish unity between Christianity and Pagan beliefs.
 

TG123456

Active Member
It clearly contradict with the first commandment. Allah never wanted for people to worship any but Him.
The Trinity doctrine does not teach people to worship anyone but Allah. The Trinity doctrine teaches that Allah exists as three persons, therefore to to worship any of these persons is to worship Him.

Instead of persons, I prefer to call them forms in which Allah has revealed Himself.

Did any of ALL the Prophets mentioned in the OT or NT up to Jesus mentioned the trinity? No.
No, the Trinity was not mentioned by name. However, Jesus frequently made statements where He said things about Himself and the Father that no one else would state unless he was claiming divinity. In Matthew 28, He told people to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Therefore, it's an invention influenced by pagan practices. It all started from the Apostle’s Creed which while doesn't clearly mention any divinity but it was later been expanded to include the divinity of Jesus by the introduction of the Nicene Creed to establish unity between Christianity and Pagan beliefs.
The divinity of Jesus was accepted by many Christians long prior to the Apostles Creed, which was composed in the late 4th century.

I've made underlined and bold like half of the quotations in this collection, from Christians who lived from the 1st to the 4th century, before Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire. Keep reading and you will find more and you can underline and bold them yourself to help you remember LOL.

THE EARLY CHURCH WAS OUTSPOKEN ON THE DEITY OF CHRIST

Ignatius Bishop of Antioch died about 110 A.D. he was a disciple of the Apostle John, wrote about the lords 2nd coming, "Look for him that is above the times, him who has not times, him who is invisible". Only God is without time , eternal and invisible. In numerous other places in his letter to Polycarp he states "Jesus is God", "God incarnate"

"Be deaf, therefore, when any would speak to you apart from (at variance with) JESUS CHRIST [the Son of God], who was descended from the family of David, born of Mary, who truly was born [both of God and of the Virgin ... truly took a body; for the Word became flesh and dwelt among us without sin"… Bishop of Antioch died about 110 A.D. he was a disciple of the Apostle John, wrote about the lords 2nd coming, "Look for him that is above the times, him who has not times, him who is invisible". Only God is without time , eternal and invisible. In numerous other places in his letter to Polycarp he states "Jesus is God", "God incarnate."

"Be deaf, therefore, when any would speak to you apart from (at variance with) JESUS CHRIST [the Son of God], who was descended from the family of David, born of Mary, who truly was born [both of God and of the Virgin ... truly took a body; for the Word became flesh and dwelt among us without sin."

Ignatius of Antioch "In Christ Jesus our Lord, by whom and with whom be glory and power to the Father with the Holy Spirit for ever" (n. 7; PG 5.988).

"We have also as a Physician the Lord our God Jesus the Christ the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For ‘the Word was made flesh.' Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passible body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts." ( The ante-nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, Vol. 1, p. 52 .)

"For our God Jesus Christ, was, according to the appointment of God, conceived in the womb by Mary, of the seed of David, but by the Holy Ghost."( Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians 4:9)

"...God Himself appearing in the form of a man, for the renewal of eternal life."( Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians 4:13)

"Continue inseparable from Jesus Christ our God."( Epistle of Ignatius to the Trallians 2:4)

"For even our God, Jesus Christ, now that He is in the Father".( Epistle of Ignatius to the Romans 1:13)

Clement of Rome (Philipians 4:3)"For Christ is with those who are humble, not with those exalt themselves over his flock. The majestic scepter of God, our Lord Jesus Christ, did not come with the pomp of arrogance or pride (though He could have done so), but in humility, just as the Holy Spirit spoke concerning Him." (1 Clement 16:1-2)

"Brethren, we ought so to think of Jesus Christ as of God : as of the judge of the living and the dead".(2nd Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians 1:1)

Justin Martyr ( 140 A.D.) "the word of wisdom, who is himself God begotten of the Father of all things, and word, and wisdom, and power, and the glory of the begetter, will bear evidence to me".(Dialogue with Tropho Ch.61)

"God speaks in the creation of man with the very same design, in the following words: 'Let us make man after our image and likeness' . . . I shall quote again the words narrated by Moses himself, from which we can indisputably learn that [God] conversed with someone numerically distinct from himself and also a rational being. . . . But this Offspring who was truly brought forth from the Father, was with the Father before all the creatures, and the Father communed with him" (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 62).

"For Christ is King, and Priest, and God and Lord..."(Dialogue With Trypho, 34)

"...He preexisted as the Son of theCreator of things, being God, and that He was born a man by the Virgin." (Dialogue With Trypho, 48 )

"We will prove that we worship him reasonably; for we have learned that he is the Son of the true God Himself, that he holds a second place, and the Spirit of prophecy a third. For this they accuse us of madness, saying that we attribute to a crucified man a place second to the unchangeable and eternal God, the Creator of all things; but they are ignorant of the Mystery which lies therein" (First Apology 13:5-6).

Polycarp (70-160). Bishop of Smyrna.A disciple of John the Apostle. "O Lord God almighty...I bless you and glorify you through the eternal and heavenly high priest Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, through whom be glory to you, with Him and the Holy Spirit, both now and forever"

"Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal High Priest Himself, the God Jesus Christ, build you up in the faith..."( The Epistle of Polycarp to the Church at Philippi, 12

Iranaeus Iranaeus (120-202) "In order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King..."(Irenaeus Against Heresies, 1.10.1)

180 A.D. "But he Jesus is himself in his own right, beyond all men who ever lived, God, Lord, and king eternal, and the incarnate word, proclaimed by all the prophets, the apostles …The Scriptures would not have borne witness to these things concerning Him, if, like everyone else, He were mere man." (Against Heresies 3:19.1-2)

"For with Him were always present the Word and Wisdom, the Son and the Spirit, by whom and in whom, freely and spontaneously, He made all things, to whom also He speaks, saying, 'Let us make man after our image and likeness'".( Against Heresies, 4:10)

Iranaeus gave the Church two statements which have continued in its creeds: (1) Filius dei filius hominis factus, "The Son of God [has] become a son of man, (Earl Cairns Christianity Through the Centuries, Zondervan, 1981, pg.110) Jesus Christus vere homo, vere deus, "Jesus Christ, true man and true God." (Harold Brown Heresies, Zondervan, 1989, pg.84)

Irenaeus gave three forms of the statement of faith in three different contexts in This is showing the variety of ways that the faith could be expressed in his day:)


Third Form: IN ONE GOD ALMIGHTY, from whom are all things; and IN THE SON OF GOD, JESUS CHRIST, our Lord, by whom are all things, and in his dispensations, through which the Son of God became man; the firm -persuasion also IN THE SPIRIT OF GOD, who furnishes us with a knowledge of the truth, and has set forth the dispensations of the Father and the Son, in virtue of which he dwells in every generation of men, according to the will of the Father (IV. xxiii. 7).(God in three persons C.Beisner) this is long before the council of Niacea.

Diogneteus Diogneteus to Mathetes (written 130 A.D.) "as a king sends his Son, who is also king, so sent he him, as God (1) he sent him; as men he sent him; as savior he sent him,…" Chpt.7 says "God" (1) which refers to the person sent.

Theophilus (115-181) Bishop of Antioch(To Autolycus 2:22 ,160 A.D.) "For the divine writing itself teaches us that Adam said that he had heard the voice but what else is this voice but the word of God, who is also his Son."

Tatian the Syrian (170 AD ) "Our God has no introduction in time. He alone is without beginning, and is Himself the beginning of all things. God is a spirit, not attending upon matter, but the Maker of material spirits and of the appearances which are in matter. He is invisible and untouchable, being Himself the Father of both sensible and invisible things. This we know by the evidence of what He has created; and we perceive His invisible power by His works".(Tatian, Address to the Greeks , 4)

"We are not playing the fool, you Greeks, nor do we talk nonsense, when we report that God was born in the form of a man" (Address to the Greeks 21).

Melito of Sardis (177 AD )The activities of Christ after his baptism, and especially his miracles, gave indication and assurance to the world of the deity hidden in his flesh. Being God and likewise perfect man, he gave positive indications of his two natures: of his deity, by the miracles during the three years following after his baptism… he concealed the signs of his deity, although he was the true God existing before the ages" (Fragment in Anastasius of Sinai's, The Guide 13).

Athenagoras (160 AD.) Speaks of "one God, the uncreated, eternal, invisible, impassible, incomprehensible, uncontainable, comprehended only by mindand reason, clothed in light and beauty and spirit and powerindescribable, by whom the totality has come to be."(suppl. 10.1)

…"the Son being in the Father and the Father in the Son, in oneness and power of Spirit, the understanding, and reason of the Father is the Son of God." (Ante Nicene Fathers vol.2 p.133 a plea for Christians)

"For Christ is the God over all".(Refutation of All Heresies 10.34)

Athenagoras identifies the Word as the Son of God, says 'although the word is God’s offspring, he never came into being. Rather, having been with God and in God eternally he issued forth at a point in time."( A plea for the Christians 12.20) "God the Word came down from heaven...He came forth into the world and...showed Himself to be God".( Against the Heresy of a Certain Noetus, 17)

speaking of what the church believes, "they hold the Father to be God, and the Son God, and the Holy Spirit, and declare their union and their distinction in order."(A plea for the Christians.10.3)

"Who, then, would not be astonished to hear those called atheists who admit God the Father, God the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and who teach their unity in power and their distinction in rank?"( Intercession on Behalf of the Saints, 10)


Clement of Alexandria (190 AD) "The Word, then, the Christ, is the cause both of our ancient beginning, for he was in God, and of our well-being. And now this same Word has appeared as man. He alone. is both God and man, and the source of all our good things" (Exhortation to the Greeks 1:7:1).

Tertullian (converted around 193 AD)(215 AD) "The origins of both his substances display him as man and as God: from the one, born, and from the other, not born" (The Flesh of Christ 5:6-7).

"God alone is without sin. The only man without sin is Christ; for Christ is also God."(The Soul 41.3)

We find that it was the ones who did not understand the trinity that were looked upon as divisive. Tetullians theological writings consisted mostly in response to what the Oneness (modalists) believes. (God is singular in person) When he debated Praxeas of which he wrote. "thus the connection of the Father in the Son the Son in the paraclete, produces three coherent persons, who are yet distinct one from another. These three are one essence, not one person, as it is said, "I and my Father are one," in respect of unity of substance, not singularity of number."( Ante-Nicene fathers vol.3,p.621, against Praxeas.) He went on to say "Yet we have never given vent to the phrases ‘two Gods’, or ‘two Lords’: not that it is untrue the Father is God, the Son is God, the Spirit is God, each is God." (ibid 13)

Tetullian developed his arguments and refined his belief of which the third form of his rule of faith became this. "We believe there is but one God, and no other besides the maker of the world, who produced the universe out of nothing, by his word sent forth first of all, that this word, called his Son, was seen in the name of God in various ways by the patriarchs, was always heard in the prophets, at last sent down, from the spirit and power of God the Father, into the virgin Mary, was made flesh in her womb, and born of her, lived as Jesus Christ...".

Not only is he careful in his explanation but throughout all his writings he defines three persons and one substance who are the one God. ."That this one and only God has a Son, his word, who proceeded from himself, by whom all things were made, and without whom nothing was made. him we believe to have been sent by the Father into the virgin, and to have been born of her- being both man and God, the Son of man, and the Son of God, and to have been called the name of Jesus Christ;" (against Praxeas vol.3, p.598)

Novatian (235 AD. )"For Scripture as much announces Christ as also God, as it announces God Himself as man. It has as much described Jesus Christ to be man, as moreover it has also described Christ the Lord to be God. Because it does not set forth Him to be the Son of God only, but also the Son of man; nor does it only say, the Son of man, but it has also been accustomed to speak of Him as the Son of God. So that being of both, He is both, lest if He should be one only, He could not be the other. For as nature itself has prescribed that he must be believed to be a man who is of man, so the same nature prescribes also that He must be believed to be God who is of God . . . Let them, therefore, who read that Jesus Christ the Son of man is man, read also that this same Jesus is called also God and the Son of God" (Treatise on the Trinity 11).


Novatian"The rule of truth demands that, first of all, we believe in GOD THE FATHER and Almighty Lord, that is, the most perfect Maker of all things. . .' The same rule of truth teaches us to believe, after the Father, also in the SON OF GOD, CHRIST JESUS, our Lord God, but the Son of God.... Moreover, the order of reason and the authority of faith, in due consideration of the words and Scriptures of the Lord ', admonishes us, after this, to believe also in the HOLY GHOST, promised of old to the Church, but granted in the appointed and fitting time.

The church did not have non-Trinitarians. The Gnostics, Arians, Oneness and others were considered to be praching heresy and were excluded from the church universal. (This is not my words but the Churches) This did not stop them from going out and starting their own movements and church’s. These were the first cultic movements and many today have aligned themselves with their teachings , some have synthesized several of them together to make something altogether new.

Hippolytus 190 A.D.(Against the heresy of one Noetus "a Oneness promoter" ch.14, ) After quoting part of Jn.1:1 "If then the word was with God and was also God what follows ? Would one say that he speaks of two God’s ? I shall not speak of two Gods but of one; of two persons however and of a third economy, the grace of the Holy Ghost. For the Father is indeed one but there are two persons because there is also the son; and there is the third the Holy Spirit. The Father decrees, the word executes and the son is manifested, through whom the Father is believed on. The economy of the harmony is led back to the one God, for God is one. It is the father who commands and the son who obeys and the Holy Spirit who gives understanding; The Father is above all the son is through all and the holy Spirit who is in all. And we cannot think of one God, but by believing in truth in Father and Son and Holy Spirit".

"God, subsisting alone, and having nothing contemporaneous with Himself, determined to create the world....Beside Him there was nothing; but He, while existing alone, yet existed in plurality....And thus there appeared another beside Himself. But when I say another, I do not mean that there are two Gods....Thus, then, these too, though they wish it not, fall in with the truth, and admit that one God made all things....For Christ is the God above all.....He who is over all is God; for thus He speaks boldly, 'All things are delivered unto me of my Father.' He who is over all, God blessed, has been born; and having been made man, He is (yet) God for ever....And well has he named Christ the Almighty. "(Hippolytus " The Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 5, pp. 227, 153, 225)

In another of his writings "This is the order of the rule of our faith...God the Father, not made, not material, invisible; One God, the creator of all things; this is the first point of our faith. the second point is this; the word of God, Son of God, Christ Jesus our Lord who was manifested to the prophets according to the form of their prophesying and according to the method of the fathers dispensation, through whom all things were made."

Gregory the Wonder-worker (262 AD) "But some treat the Holy Trinity in an awful manner, when they confidently assert that there are not three persons, and introduce (the idea of) a person devoid of subsistence. Wherefore we clear ourselves of Sabellius, who says that the Father and the Son are the same [Person] . . . We forswear this, because we believe that three persons--namely, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit--are declared to possess the one Godhead: for the one divinity showing itself forth according to nature in the Trinity establishes the oneness of the nature" (A Sectional Confession of Faith 8).

"But if they say, 'How can there be three Persons, and how but one Divinity?' we shall make this reply: That there are indeed three persons, inasmuch as there is one person of God the Father, and one of the Lord the Son, and one of the Holy Spirit; and yet that there is but one divinity, inasmuch as . . . there is one substance in the Trinity" (A Sectional Confession of Faith, 14)

Dionysius (262 AD )"Neither, then, may we divide into three godheads the wonderful and divine unity . . . Rather, we must believe in God, the Father almighty; and in Christ Jesus, his Son; and in the Holy Spirit; and that the Word is united to the God of the Universe. `For,' he says, 'The Father and I are one,' and `I am in the Father, and the Father in me'" (Letter to Dionysius of Alexandria, 3)

Methodius (305 AD) "For the kingdom of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is one, even as their substance is one and their dominion one. Whence also, with one and the same adoration, we worship the one Deity in three Persons, subsisting without beginning, uncreated, without end, and to which there is no successor…. For nothing of the Trinity will suffer diminution, either in respect of eternity, or of communion, or of sovereignty" (Oration on the Psalms 5).

Arnobius (305 AD) "'Well, then,' some raging, angry, and excited man will say, 'Is that Christ your God?' 'God indeed,' we shall answer, 'and God of the hidden powers'" (Against the Pagans 1:42).

Athanasius (290 -370) "[The Trinity] is a Trinity not merely in name or in a figurative manner of speaking; rather, it is a Trinity in truth and in actual existence. Just as the Father is he that is, so also his Word is one that is and is God over all. And neither is the Holy Spirit nonexistent but actually exists and has true being." (Letters to Serapion 1:28).

"United without confusion, distinguished without separation. Indivisible and without degrees." (Sermon on Lk.10:22)

If One examines carefully the writings of the early church writers their language and theology reflects their understanding of the Trinity. They contended from Scripture not from Greek philosophy or paganism as is charged from anti-Trinitarian opponents. Trinitarianism certainly was not developed in the 4th century but was part of the theology of the early church. Those who oppose it today, are not part of the Church just as they were not part of the Church in the beginning.



Early church on deity


 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Wooah! it will take some time till i'm able to read the whole thing. I'll get back to you later after i read this post God willing. :)
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The Trinity doctrine does not teach people to worship anyone but Allah. The Trinity doctrine teaches that Allah exists as three persons, therefore to to worship any of these persons is to worship Him.

Instead of persons, I prefer to call them forms in which Allah has revealed Himself.

It's a flawed concept which has been invented to accommodate pagans beliefs. Allah didn't tell us to worship Jesus or the holy Spirit. He want us to worship him alone. You claim they are forms or parts of God but neither God nor Jesus claimed so.

No, the Trinity was not mentioned by name. However, Jesus frequently made statements where He said things about Himself and the Father that no one else would state unless he was claiming divinity. In Matthew 28, He told people to baptize
in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.


Yeah, but he didn't ask people to worship them, did he? you don't need to speculate, all what you have to do is to worship God alone and reject the invention of the church.


The divinity of Jesus was accepted by many Christians long prior to the Apostles Creed, which was composed in the late 4th century.
I've made underlined and bold like half of the quotations in this collection, from Christians who lived from the 1st to the 4th century, before Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire. Keep reading and you will find more and you can underline and bold them yourself to help you remember LOL.

THE EARLY CHURCH WAS OUTSPOKEN ON THE DEITY OF CHRIST

Ignatius Bishop of Antioch died about 110 A.D. he was a disciple of the Apostle John, wrote about the lords 2nd coming, "Look for him that is above the times, him who has not times, him who is invisible". Only God is without time , eternal and invisible. In numerous other places in his letter to Polycarp he states "Jesus is God", "God incarnate"

"Be deaf, therefore, when any would speak to you apart from (at variance with) JESUS CHRIST [the Son of God], who was descended from the family of David, born of Mary, who truly was born [both of God and of the Virgin ... truly took a body; for the Word became flesh and dwelt among us without sin"… Bishop of Antioch died about 110 A.D. he was a disciple of the Apostle John, wrote about the lords 2nd coming, "Look for him that is above the times, him who has not times, him who is invisible". Only God is without time , eternal and invisible. In numerous other places in his letter to Polycarp he states "Jesus is God", "God incarnate."

"Be deaf, therefore, when any would speak to you apart from (at variance with) JESUS CHRIST [the Son of God], who was descended from the family of David, born of Mary, who truly was born [both of God and of the Virgin ... truly took a body; for the Word became flesh and dwelt among us without sin."

Ignatius of Antioch "In Christ Jesus our Lord, by whom and with whom be glory and power to the Father with the Holy Spirit for ever" (n. 7; PG 5.988).

"We have also as a Physician the Lord our God Jesus the Christ the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For ‘the Word was made flesh.' Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passible body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts." ( The ante-nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, Vol. 1, p. 52 .)

"For our God Jesus Christ, was, according to the appointment of God, conceived in the womb by Mary, of the seed of David, but by the Holy Ghost."( Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians 4:9)

"...God Himself appearing in the form of a man, for the renewal of eternal life."( Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians 4:13)

"Continue inseparable from Jesus Christ our God."( Epistle of Ignatius to the Trallians 2:4)

"For even our God, Jesus Christ, now that He is in the Father".( Epistle of Ignatius to the Romans 1:13)

Clement of Rome (Philipians 4:3)"For Christ is with those who are humble, not with those exalt themselves over his flock. The majestic scepter of God, our Lord Jesus Christ, did not come with the pomp of arrogance or pride (though He could have done so), but in humility, just as the Holy Spirit spoke concerning Him." (1 Clement 16:1-2)

"Brethren, we ought so to think of Jesus Christ as of God : as of the judge of the living and the dead".(2nd Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians 1:1)

Justin Martyr ( 140 A.D.) "the word of wisdom, who is himself God begotten of the Father of all things, and word, and wisdom, and power, and the glory of the begetter, will bear evidence to me".(Dialogue with Tropho Ch.61)

"God speaks in the creation of man with the very same design, in the following words: 'Let us make man after our image and likeness' . . . I shall quote again the words narrated by Moses himself, from which we can indisputably learn that [God] conversed with someone numerically distinct from himself and also a rational being. . . . But this Offspring who was truly brought forth from the Father, was with the Father before all the creatures, and the Father communed with him" (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 62).

"For Christ is King, and Priest, and God and Lord..."(Dialogue With Trypho, 34)

"...He preexisted as the Son of theCreator of things, being God, and that He was born a man by the Virgin." (Dialogue With Trypho, 48 )

"We will prove that we worship him reasonably; for we have learned that he is the Son of the true God Himself, that he holds a second place, and the Spirit of prophecy a third. For this they accuse us of madness, saying that we attribute to a crucified man a place second to the unchangeable and eternal God, the Creator of all things; but they are ignorant of the Mystery which lies therein" (First Apology 13:5-6).

Polycarp (70-160). Bishop of Smyrna.A disciple of John the Apostle. "O Lord God almighty...I bless you and glorify you through the eternal and heavenly high priest Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, through whom be glory to you, with Him and the Holy Spirit, both now and forever"

"Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal High Priest Himself, the God Jesus Christ, build you up in the faith..."( The Epistle of Polycarp to the Church at Philippi, 12

Iranaeus Iranaeus (120-202) "In order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King..."(Irenaeus Against Heresies, 1.10.1)

180 A.D. "But he Jesus is himself in his own right, beyond all men who ever lived, God, Lord, and king eternal, and the incarnate word, proclaimed by all the prophets, the apostles …The Scriptures would not have borne witness to these things concerning Him, if, like everyone else, He were mere man." (Against Heresies 3:19.1-2)

"For with Him were always present the Word and Wisdom, the Son and the Spirit, by whom and in whom, freely and spontaneously, He made all things, to whom also He speaks, saying, 'Let us make man after our image and likeness'".( Against Heresies, 4:10)

Iranaeus gave the Church two statements which have continued in its creeds: (1) Filius dei filius hominis factus, "The Son of God [has] become a son of man, (Earl Cairns Christianity Through the Centuries, Zondervan, 1981, pg.110) Jesus Christus vere homo, vere deus, "Jesus Christ, true man and true God." (Harold Brown Heresies, Zondervan, 1989, pg.84)

Irenaeus gave three forms of the statement of faith in three different contexts in This is showing the variety of ways that the faith could be expressed in his day:)


Third Form: IN ONE GOD ALMIGHTY, from whom are all things; and IN THE SON OF GOD, JESUS CHRIST, our Lord, by whom are all things, and in his dispensations, through which the Son of God became man; the firm -persuasion also IN THE SPIRIT OF GOD, who furnishes us with a knowledge of the truth, and has set forth the dispensations of the Father and the Son, in virtue of which he dwells in every generation of men, according to the will of the Father (IV. xxiii. 7).(God in three persons C.Beisner) this is long before the council of Niacea.

Diogneteus Diogneteus to Mathetes (written 130 A.D.) "as a king sends his Son, who is also king, so sent he him, as God (1) he sent him; as men he sent him; as savior he sent him,…" Chpt.7 says "God" (1) which refers to the person sent.

Theophilus (115-181) Bishop of Antioch(To Autolycus 2:22 ,160 A.D.) "For the divine writing itself teaches us that Adam said that he had heard the voice but what else is this voice but the word of God, who is also his Son."

Tatian the Syrian (170 AD ) "Our God has no introduction in time. He alone is without beginning, and is Himself the beginning of all things. God is a spirit, not attending upon matter, but the Maker of material spirits and of the appearances which are in matter. He is invisible and untouchable, being Himself the Father of both sensible and invisible things. This we know by the evidence of what He has created; and we perceive His invisible power by His works".(Tatian, Address to the Greeks , 4)

"We are not playing the fool, you Greeks, nor do we talk nonsense, when we report that God was born in the form of a man" (Address to the Greeks 21).

Melito of Sardis (177 AD )The activities of Christ after his baptism, and especially his miracles, gave indication and assurance to the world of the deity hidden in his flesh. Being God and likewise perfect man, he gave positive indications of his two natures: of his deity, by the miracles during the three years following after his baptism… he concealed the signs of his deity, although he was the true God existing before the ages" (Fragment in Anastasius of Sinai's, The Guide 13).

Athenagoras (160 AD.) Speaks of "one God, the uncreated, eternal, invisible, impassible, incomprehensible, uncontainable, comprehended only by mindand reason, clothed in light and beauty and spirit and powerindescribable, by whom the totality has come to be."(suppl. 10.1)

…"the Son being in the Father and the Father in the Son, in oneness and power of Spirit, the understanding, and reason of the Father is the Son of God." (Ante Nicene Fathers vol.2 p.133 a plea for Christians)

"For Christ is the God over all".(Refutation of All Heresies 10.34)

Athenagoras identifies the Word as the Son of God, says 'although the word is God’s offspring, he never came into being. Rather, having been with God and in God eternally he issued forth at a point in time."( A plea for the Christians 12.20) "God the Word came down from heaven...He came forth into the world and...showed Himself to be God".( Against the Heresy of a Certain Noetus, 17)

speaking of what the church believes, "they hold the Father to be God, and the Son God, and the Holy Spirit, and declare their union and their distinction in order."(A plea for the Christians.10.3)

"Who, then, would not be astonished to hear those called atheists who admit God the Father, God the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and who teach their unity in power and their distinction in rank?"( Intercession on Behalf of the Saints, 10)


Clement of Alexandria (190 AD) "The Word, then, the Christ, is the cause both of our ancient beginning, for he was in God, and of our well-being. And now this same Word has appeared as man. He alone. is both God and man, and the source of all our good things" (Exhortation to the Greeks 1:7:1).

Tertullian (converted around 193 AD)(215 AD) "The origins of both his substances display him as man and as God: from the one, born, and from the other, not born" (The Flesh of Christ 5:6-7).

"God alone is without sin. The only man without sin is Christ; for Christ is also God."(The Soul 41.3)

We find that it was the ones who did not understand the trinity that were looked upon as divisive. Tetullians theological writings consisted mostly in response to what the Oneness (modalists) believes. (God is singular in person) When he debated Praxeas of which he wrote. "thus the connection of the Father in the Son the Son in the paraclete, produces three coherent persons, who are yet distinct one from another. These three are one essence, not one person, as it is said, "I and my Father are one," in respect of unity of substance, not singularity of number."( Ante-Nicene fathers vol.3,p.621, against Praxeas.) He went on to say "Yet we have never given vent to the phrases ‘two Gods’, or ‘two Lords’: not that it is untrue the Father is God, the Son is God, the Spirit is God, each is God." (ibid 13)

Tetullian developed his arguments and refined his belief of which the third form of his rule of faith became this. "We believe there is but one God, and no other besides the maker of the world, who produced the universe out of nothing, by his word sent forth first of all, that this word, called his Son, was seen in the name of God in various ways by the patriarchs, was always heard in the prophets, at last sent down, from the spirit and power of God the Father, into the virgin Mary, was made flesh in her womb, and born of her, lived as Jesus Christ...".

Not only is he careful in his explanation but throughout all his writings he defines three persons and one substance who are the one God. ."That this one and only God has a Son, his word, who proceeded from himself, by whom all things were made, and without whom nothing was made. him we believe to have been sent by the Father into the virgin, and to have been born of her- being both man and God, the Son of man, and the Son of God, and to have been called the name of Jesus Christ;" (against Praxeas vol.3, p.598)

Novatian (235 AD. )"For Scripture as much announces Christ as also God, as it announces God Himself as man. It has as much described Jesus Christ to be man, as moreover it has also described Christ the Lord to be God. Because it does not set forth Him to be the Son of God only, but also the Son of man; nor does it only say, the Son of man, but it has also been accustomed to speak of Him as the Son of God. So that being of both, He is both, lest if He should be one only, He could not be the other. For as nature itself has prescribed that he must be believed to be a man who is of man, so the same nature prescribes also that He must be believed to be God who is of God . . . Let them, therefore, who read that Jesus Christ the Son of man is man, read also that this same Jesus is called also God and the Son of God" (Treatise on the Trinity 11).


Novatian"The rule of truth demands that, first of all, we believe in GOD THE FATHER and Almighty Lord, that is, the most perfect Maker of all things. . .' The same rule of truth teaches us to believe, after the Father, also in the SON OF GOD, CHRIST JESUS, our Lord God, but the Son of God.... Moreover, the order of reason and the authority of faith, in due consideration of the words and Scriptures of the Lord ', admonishes us, after this, to believe also in the HOLY GHOST, promised of old to the Church, but granted in the appointed and fitting time.

The church did not have non-Trinitarians. The Gnostics, Arians, Oneness and others were considered to be praching heresy and were excluded from the church universal. (This is not my words but the Churches) This did not stop them from going out and starting their own movements and church’s. These were the first cultic movements and many today have aligned themselves with their teachings , some have synthesized several of them together to make something altogether new.

Hippolytus 190 A.D.(Against the heresy of one Noetus "a Oneness promoter" ch.14, ) After quoting part of Jn.1:1 "If then the word was with God and was also God what follows ? Would one say that he speaks of two God’s ? I shall not speak of two Gods but of one; of two persons however and of a third economy, the grace of the Holy Ghost. For the Father is indeed one but there are two persons because there is also the son; and there is the third the Holy Spirit. The Father decrees, the word executes and the son is manifested, through whom the Father is believed on. The economy of the harmony is led back to the one God, for God is one. It is the father who commands and the son who obeys and the Holy Spirit who gives understanding; The Father is above all the son is through all and the holy Spirit who is in all. And we cannot think of one God, but by believing in truth in Father and Son and Holy Spirit".

"God, subsisting alone, and having nothing contemporaneous with Himself, determined to create the world....Beside Him there was nothing; but He, while existing alone, yet existed in plurality....And thus there appeared another beside Himself. But when I say another, I do not mean that there are two Gods....Thus, then, these too, though they wish it not, fall in with the truth, and admit that one God made all things....For Christ is the God above all.....He who is over all is God; for thus He speaks boldly, 'All things are delivered unto me of my Father.' He who is over all, God blessed, has been born; and having been made man, He is (yet) God for ever....And well has he named Christ the Almighty. "(Hippolytus " The Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 5, pp. 227, 153, 225)

In another of his writings "This is the order of the rule of our faith...God the Father, not made, not material, invisible; One God, the creator of all things; this is the first point of our faith. the second point is this; the word of God, Son of God, Christ Jesus our Lord who was manifested to the prophets according to the form of their prophesying and according to the method of the fathers dispensation, through whom all things were made."

Gregory the Wonder-worker (262 AD) "But some treat the Holy Trinity in an awful manner, when they confidently assert that there are not three persons, and introduce (the idea of) a person devoid of subsistence. Wherefore we clear ourselves of Sabellius, who says that the Father and the Son are the same [Person] . . . We forswear this, because we believe that three persons--namely, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit--are declared to possess the one Godhead: for the one divinity showing itself forth according to nature in the Trinity establishes the oneness of the nature" (A Sectional Confession of Faith 8).

"But if they say, 'How can there be three Persons, and how but one Divinity?' we shall make this reply: That there are indeed three persons, inasmuch as there is one person of God the Father, and one of the Lord the Son, and one of the Holy Spirit; and yet that there is but one divinity, inasmuch as . . . there is one substance in the Trinity" (A Sectional Confession of Faith, 14)

Dionysius (262 AD )"Neither, then, may we divide into three godheads the wonderful and divine unity . . . Rather, we must believe in God, the Father almighty; and in Christ Jesus, his Son; and in the Holy Spirit; and that the Word is united to the God of the Universe. `For,' he says, 'The Father and I are one,' and `I am in the Father, and the Father in me'" (Letter to Dionysius of Alexandria, 3)

Methodius (305 AD) "For the kingdom of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is one, even as their substance is one and their dominion one. Whence also, with one and the same adoration, we worship the one Deity in three Persons, subsisting without beginning, uncreated, without end, and to which there is no successor…. For nothing of the Trinity will suffer diminution, either in respect of eternity, or of communion, or of sovereignty" (Oration on the Psalms 5).

Arnobius (305 AD) "'Well, then,' some raging, angry, and excited man will say, 'Is that Christ your God?' 'God indeed,' we shall answer, 'and God of the hidden powers'" (Against the Pagans 1:42).

Athanasius (290 -370) "[The Trinity] is a Trinity not merely in name or in a figurative manner of speaking; rather, it is a Trinity in truth and in actual existence. Just as the Father is he that is, so also his Word is one that is and is God over all. And neither is the Holy Spirit nonexistent but actually exists and has true being." (Letters to Serapion 1:28).

"United without confusion, distinguished without separation. Indivisible and without degrees." (Sermon on Lk.10:22)

If One examines carefully the writings of the early church writers their language and theology reflects their understanding of the Trinity. They contended from Scripture not from Greek philosophy or paganism as is charged from anti-Trinitarian opponents. Trinitarianism certainly was not developed in the 4th century but was part of the theology of the early church. Those who oppose it today, are not part of the Church just as they were not part of the Church in the beginning.



Early church on deity


Do you have another source? this one is blocked here in UAE. :confused:
 

TG123456

Active Member
It's a flawed concept which has been invented to accommodate pagans beliefs.
What evidence do you have that the Trinity doctrine was invented to accomodate pagan beliefs?

Do you know when it was invented and by whom?

Allah didn't tell us to worship Jesus or the holy Spirit. He want us to worship him alone. You claim they are forms or parts of God but neither God nor Jesus claimed so.
If Jesus was not part of God, there would have been no reason for Him to say that He and the Father are one, or that they enjoyed glory before the foundation of the world, or that those who have seen Him have seen the Father.

Think of it- did Muhammad ever say that those who have seen him have seen Allah? Or that he and Allah are one? Or that they enjoyed glory before anything else was ever created?

Why or why not?

Yeah, but he didn't ask people to worship them, did he?
No, but He made it clear that He and the Father and Holy Spirit are one God.


you don't need to speculate, all what you have to do is to worship God alone and reject the invention of the church.
How do I worship God alone?

Do you have another source? this one is blocked here in UAE. :confused:
LOL seriously?

OK, try this one:
The Deity of Christ in the Early Church
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
What evidence do you have that the Trinity doctrine was invented to accomodate pagan beliefs?

Do you know when it was invented and by whom?


If Jesus was not part of God, there would have been no reason for Him to say that He and the Father are one, or that they enjoyed glory before the foundation of the world, or that those who have seen Him have seen the Father.

Think of it- did Muhammad ever say that those who have seen him have seen Allah? Or that he and Allah are one? Or that they enjoyed glory before anything else was ever created?

Why or why not?


No, but He made it clear that He and the Father and Holy Spirit are one God.



How do I worship God alone?


LOL seriously?

OK, try this one:
The Deity of Christ in the Early Church

This one is fine. I'll read the link and get back to you insha'Allah. :)
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
What evidence do you have that the Trinity doctrine was invented to accomodate pagan beliefs?

Do you know when it was invented and by whom?

If Jesus was not part of God, there would have been no reason for Him to say that He and the Father are one, or that they enjoyed glory before the foundation of the world, or that those who have seen Him have seen the Father.

Think of it- did Muhammad ever say that those who have seen him have seen Allah? Or that he and Allah are one? Or that they enjoyed glory before anything else was ever created?

Why or why not?

No, but He made it clear that He and the Father and Holy Spirit are one God.

How do I worship God alone?

LOL seriously?

OK, try this one:
The Deity of Christ in the Early Church

From your source:

One of the truly unfortunate fruits of the scholastic arm of contemporary Christianity is the wide acceptance that Trinitarian thought was absent from the early church. Today, the majority of theologians believe that Trinitarian thought "evolved" and slowly developed over several centuries. Such scholars may make a distinction between the person "Jesus", and the later appellation of "Christ", which they say was interpreted into the events surrounding Christ’s ministry many decades after his death. The fact of the whole matter, however, is that virtually all of the very earliest church fathers accepted the truth that Christ was properly God, and that his personality, though in union and equal in power, was distinct from his Father's. The previous evidence based on the Christ-hymn forms is undeniable. They are proof that , before there was ever a Christological debate, council or controversy, Jesus Christ was understood to be worshipped as God. Before there was even a New Testament, Jesus was the focal point of worship and adoration in the apostolic church. In addition to that, we have a tremendous amount of writing in the first three centuries which demonstrates that virtually every single one of the fathers were, in essence, Trinitarian. Perhaps the only reason why we don’t have the very earliest Christians making that exact affirmation is purely on the ground of weakness of language. Finding working definitions that could express the co-eternality, co-equality, one essence of the Godhead, yet maintain the distinct individuality of the personalities was, and still is, a semantic land mine. Even the orthodox believers spent an inordinate amount of time wrestling with what they thought the other was saying. In many cases, they were saying essentially the same thing, but the nuances and subjectivity of language caused confusion. One of the greatest problems was in communicating Trinitarian truth between the Greek speaking East and the Latin Speaking West. For decades, the mistranslations and ambiguity of words made one half of the empire think the other were Tritheists, while the other thought the former Monarchiasts, (making Jesus less than God). Fortunately, over time, some consensus was reached regarding Trinitarian language.
The Deity of Christ in the Early Church

They admit there is no early affirmation for trinitarian belief. So they agreed with my conclusion.

That's why Allah said in the Quran:

That they said (in boast), "We killed Al-Masih 'Isa the son of Maryam, the Messenger of Allah"; but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not.

Quran (4:157)
 

Nietzsche

The Last Prussian
Premium Member
There is a rather simply solution to the problem here. We're taking the word of a people who disliked the Egyptians. We're assuming they're being accurate, when in reality what they're saying could be either made up or horribly distorted from what they actually were like.
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
There is a rather simply solution to the problem here. We're taking the word of a people who disliked the Egyptians. We're assuming they're being accurate, when in reality what they're saying could be either made up or horribly distorted from what they actually were like.

Interesting! Can you elaborate please?
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Basically, would you trust a bunch of Islamophobes to describe your beliefs? No, you wouldn't. Why then are we trusting the Jews to describe the Egyptian beliefs?

Do you mean the descriptions of Egyptian beliefs early in this thread is incorrect or bias at least?
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The ones based on descriptions found in the Bible are probably not the most accurate, no.

As a matter of fact, the OP was asking the following:

Is it possible that the story of Pharaoh and Moses, found in both the Bible and Quran, is fictitious?

He is a Christian so i'm still not sure on whether he believe the bible to be the word of God or not. At times he says the bible is the word of God, and at times he says the bible is wrong.
 

Nietzsche

The Last Prussian
Premium Member
As a matter of fact, the OP was asking the following:

Is it possible that the story of Pharaoh and Moses, found in both the Bible and Quran, is fictitious?

He is a Christian so i'm still not sure on whether he believe the bible to be the word of God or not. At times he says the bible is the word of God, and at times he says the bible is wrong.
Ah. This is what I get for skipping over a large portion of the thread. The formatting on it is terrible in the pre-move places. My apologies.
 

TG123456

Active Member
From your source:

One of the truly unfortunate fruits of the scholastic arm of contemporary Christianity is the wide acceptance that Trinitarian thought was absent from the early church. Today, the majority of theologians believe that Trinitarian thought "evolved" and slowly developed over several centuries. Such scholars may make a distinction between the person "Jesus", and the later appellation of "Christ", which they say was interpreted into the events surrounding Christ’s ministry many decades after his death. The fact of the whole matter, however, is that virtually all of the very earliest church fathers accepted the truth that Christ was properly God, and that his personality, though in union and equal in power, was distinct from his Father's. The previous evidence based on the Christ-hymn forms is undeniable. They are proof that , before there was ever a Christological debate, council or controversy, Jesus Christ was understood to be worshipped as God. Before there was even a New Testament, Jesus was the focal point of worship and adoration in the apostolic church. In addition to that, we have a tremendous amount of writing in the first three centuries which demonstrates that virtually every single one of the fathers were, in essence, Trinitarian. Perhaps the only reason why we don’t have the very earliest Christians making that exact affirmation is purely on the ground of weakness of language. Finding working definitions that could express the co-eternality, co-equality, one essence of the Godhead, yet maintain the distinct individuality of the personalities was, and still is, a semantic land mine. Even the orthodox believers spent an inordinate amount of time wrestling with what they thought the other was saying. In many cases, they were saying essentially the same thing, but the nuances and subjectivity of language caused confusion. One of the greatest problems was in communicating Trinitarian truth between the Greek speaking East and the Latin Speaking West. For decades, the mistranslations and ambiguity of words made one half of the empire think the other were Tritheists, while the other thought the former Monarchiasts, (making Jesus less than God). Fortunately, over time, some consensus was reached regarding Trinitarian language.
The Deity of Christ in the Early Church

They admit there is no early affirmation for trinitarian belief. So they agreed with my conclusion.
They did not use the word "Trinity". Yet they already referred to Jesus as God, the Father as God and the Holy Spirit as God.

That's why Allah said in the Quran:

That they said (in boast), "We killed Al-Masih 'Isa the son of Maryam, the Messenger of Allah"; but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not.

Quran (4:157)
This states that those who don't believe that Jesus was not crucified are full of doubts and follow conjectures, not that they are Trinitarians. The Jehovah's Witnesses also believe Jesus was killed (though on a stake instead of a cross) and they do not believe in the Trinity.

Speaking of people following conjecture and having no certain knowledge, why do Muslims differ on who was killed in Jesus' place?

(O you to whom the Dhikr (the Qur'an) has been sent down! Verily, you are a mad man!) When Allah sent `Isa with proofs and guidance, the Jews, may Allah's curses, anger, torment and punishment be upon them, envied him because of his prophethood and obvious miracles; curing the blind and leprous and bringing the dead back to life, by Allah's leave. He also used to make the shape of a bird from clay and blow in it, and it became a bird by Allah's leave and flew. `Isa performed other miracles that Allah honored him with, yet the Jews defied and bellied him and tried their best to harm him. Allah's Prophet `Isa could not live in any one city for long and he had to travel often with his mother, peace be upon them. Even so, the Jews were not satisfied, and they went to the king of Damascus at that time, a Greek polytheist who worshipped the stars. They told him that there was a man in Bayt Al-Maqdis misguiding and dividing the people in Jerusalem and stirring unrest among the king's subjects. The king became angry and wrote to his deputy in Jerusalem to arrest the rebel leader, stop him from causing unrest, crucify him and make him wear a crown of thorns. When the king's deputy in Jerusalem received these orders, he went with some Jews to the house that `Isa was residing in, and he was then with twelve, thirteen or seventeen of his companions. That day was a Friday, in the evening. They surrounded `Isa in the house, and when he felt that they would soon enter the house or that he would sooner or later have to leave it, he said to his companions, "Who volunteers to be made to look like me, for which he will be my companion in Paradise'' A young man volunteered, but `Isa thought that he was too young. He asked the question a second and third time, each time the young man volunteering, prompting `Isa to say, "Well then, you will be that man.'' Allah made the young man look exactly like `Isa, while a hole opened in the roof of the house, and `Isa was made to sleep and ascended to heaven while asleep. Allah said,

﴿إِذْ قَالَ اللَّهُ يعِيسَى إِنِّي مُتَوَفِّيكَ وَرَافِعُكَ إِلَىَّ﴾

(And (remember) when Allah said: "O `Isa! I will take you and raise you to Myself.'') When `Isa ascended, those who were in the house came out. When those surrounding the house saw the man who looked like `Isa, they thought that he was `Isa. So they took him at night, crucified him and placed a crown of thorns on his head. The Jews then boasted that they killed `Isa and some Christians accepted their false claim, due to their ignorance and lack of reason. As for those who were in the house with `Isa, they witnessed his ascension to heaven, while the rest thought that the Jews killed `Isa by crucifixion. They even said that Maryam sat under the corpse of the crucified man and cried, and they say that the dead man spoke to her. All this was a test from Allah for His servants out of His wisdom. Allah explained this matter in the Glorious Qur'an which He sent to His honorable Messenger, whom He supported with miracles and clear, unequivocal evidence. Allah is the Most Truthful, and He is the Lord of the worlds Who knows the secrets, what the hearts conceal, the hidden matters in heaven and earth, what has occurred, what will occur, and what would occur if it was decreed.

Quran Tafsir Ibn Kathir - The Evil Accusation the Jews Uttered Against Maryam and Their Claim that They Killed `Isa


And for their saying, boastfully, ‘We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the Messenger of God’, as they claim: in other words, for all of these [reasons] We have punished them. God, exalted be He, says, in repudiating their claim to have killed him: And yet they did not slay him nor did they crucify him, but he, the one slain and crucified, who was an associate of theirs [the Jews], was given the resemblance, of Jesus. In other words, God cast his [Jesus’s] likeness to him and so they thought it was him [Jesus]. And those who disagree concerning him, that is, concerning Jesus, are surely in doubt regarding, the slaying of, him, for some of them said, when they saw the slain man: the face is that of Jesus, but the body is not his, and so it is not he; and others said: no, it is he. They do not have any knowledge of, the slaying of, him, only the pursuit of conjecture (illā ittibā‘a l-zann, is a discontinuous exception) in other words: ‘instead, they follow conjecture regarding him, that which they imagined [they saw]’; and they did not slay him for certain (yaqīnan, a circumstantial qualifier emphasising the denial of the slaying).

http://altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMa...o=157&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2


(And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger) Allah destroyed their man Tatianos. (They slew him not nor crucified, but it appeared so unto them) Allah made Tatianos look like Jesus and so they killed him instead of him; (and lo! those who disagree concerning it) concerning his killing (are in doubt thereof) in doubt about his killing; (they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture) not even conjecture; (they slew him not for certain) i.e. certainly they did not kill him,


http://altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMa...o=157&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2


Who was crucified in the place of Jesus? A disciples who volunteered, or one of the Jews who wished Him dead, a guy called Tatianos?

It seems Muslims follow "conjecture" no less than Christians. At least most Christians agree it was Jesus who was on the cross.
 
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