Who was the Pharaoh of the Bible and Quran

[TG123456]

Salaam Alaikum.

In both the Bible and Quran, there is the story of a Pharaoh who kept the Israelite people in slavery in Egypt, and tried to kill all the male Israelite children. He was told by Moses to let the Israelites go, refused, was struck along with his country by plagues, and drowned while pursuing Moses and his people. According to the Bible, the Israelites numbered in the hundreds of thousands- which was impossible at that time, given the population of that region then.

According to the Quran, in addition to what the Bible says about him, the Pharaoh ruled from when Moses was a child until he drowned trying to pursue him and his people. This Pharaoh not only believed he was divine, but also believed that his advisors had no god but him. At the same time, they would ask him if wanted them to abandon him and his gods. The Pharaoh of the Quran had the crops and buildings that he and his men built destroyed by God.


I am unaware of any record either of the Israelites being slaves in Egypt, or of any Pharaoh who drowned in the sea. I am also unaware of any Pharaoh who believed he was the only god his subjects had, or whose buildings and works were destroyed by God. Given all we know about the religion of Ancient Egypt, the Pharaohs were rulers of polytheistic societies. While they foolishly believed themselves to be gods, they built temples to other deities and hired people to worship them.

Is it possible that the story of Pharaoh and Moses, found in both the Bible and Quran, is fictitious?

 

[Mycroft]

Wa ‘alaykum al-salaam.

For Joseph, it might have been Dudimose.

For Moses it might have been Thutmose III.

 

[TG123456]

Wa ‘alaykum al-salaam.

For Joseph, it might have been Dudimose.

For Moses it might have been Thutmose III.

Why these Pharaohs?

We know that Thutmose III built several temples to various gods, and in them, he would present himself as making offerings to these deities.

Not only was Thutmose a skilled warrior, he was also a very religious man, having been educated at the Theban Temple as a young boy. He had several temples built and several others enlarged, with a multitude of statues placed in each showing him offering gifts to the gods.

Thutmose III

He clearly did not believe he was the only god his people worshiped.

One of Tuthmose IIIs viziers was Rekhmere.

Rekhmere worshiped and served not only the Pharaoh, but also other gods. He describes himself as an attendant of Horus in his house and as the steward of Amun. Horus and Amun were Egyptian gods.

The hereditary and local prince, steward of stewards, master of mysteries who enters into the sanctuary, from whom god has fenced away nothing, nor is there aught of which he is ignorant in heaven or earth or in any recess of the netherworld, sun-priest of the House of Flame (the national Temple of Lower Egypt), priest in the Great House (the national temple of Upper Egypt); controller of all ceremonial robes, judge of the Six High Courts, director of every diwan of the king; he was uniquely useful to him who made him useful; conciliatory in giving judgement; foster-child of the King of Upper Egypt, follower of the King of Lower Egypt; attendant of Horus (3)... [Horus] in his house, under whose signet ring are [united (?)] and bound together the houses of gold and the houses of silver, the steward of [Amun..... Rekhmere].
http://archiv.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/p...hmere_1925.pdf

As the vizier, Rekhmere ordered his people to make a prayer that mentions not only the king, but also 5 other gods.

The prayer of offerings to be recited by the passersby

A boon which the king gives, and Amen-re', Atum, Shu and Tefenis, and Thoth the deputy of Re (45); invocation of offerings..., all good things without end, to go up to heaven; to penetrate the netherworld in the midst of the unresting stars; may they offer offerings of food, placed upon the leaves of the Weary of Heart, for the soul of the prince and the overseer of the city, Rekhmere justified....
http://archiv.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/p...hmere_1925.pdf

According to what the Quran teaches about the Pharaoh, he believed that his people had no god but he.


28:38

And Pharaoh said, "O eminent ones, I have not known you to have a god other than me. Then ignite for me, O Haman, [a fire] upon the clay and make for me a tower that I may look at the God of Moses. And indeed, I do think he is among the liars."

I find it impossible that such a king would appoint men as his advisors, men whose job descriptions included being attendants to the gods, and who instructed passersby to recite their names as well as that of Pharaoh in their prayers.

There is also no record of Tuthmose III drowning.

 

[Union]

Hi TG . Please look at the following link , it may answer some of your inquiries , if may not all :
The Identification Of Pharaoh During The Time Of Moses

 

[TG123456]

Salaam Alaikum, Union, and thank you for the article. I read it before, and it concludes that Ramses II was the Pharaoh described in the Quran. The authors derive this conclusion from the fact that he believed himself to be god, that his body was preserved well, and that he ruled for a long time.

Here are some of the problems with this theory, however.


Although Ramses did declare himself as the most powerful god, one of his roles as the ruler of Egypt was upholding Maat.

What is Maat? Maat was a religious system, which ensured that the Egyptians honoured the Pharaoh and the other gods.

Upholder of Maat:
Maat can be defined as the universal order, or the concept of truth, law, balance, morality and justice. The Phararoh was not just the king-preist he was the upholder of Maat. As long as the people honoured the pharaoh and the Gods; and the pharaoh honoured the gods, as well as obeying the law, all would be well and maat would be in balance. But as soon as these components failed, not only the people would suffer, but the whole empire, as maat formed the basis of all things. Ramesses II was beleived to have the spirit of the god Horus residing within him, and helping to guide him along the proper path of Maat. Ramesses also had the spirits of his predecessors, who dwelt within osiris, to help him, even though this was the case, the pharaoh could still make mistakes, and therefore the spirits would only support him, so long as he uphelp Maat.

Religion - Role and Contribution of Ramesses II

Although Ramses II did have the power to change the importance of the other gods as the authors of Islamic Answers suggest, he still had a duty to ensure his people worshiped them... and there is nothing to suggest that he shirked from this duty.

Ramses II built temples for them as well as himself, like the Temple of Beit El Wali.

Beit el-Wali represents another of Ramesses II's Nubian monuments dedicated principally to Amun, together with other gods, that was carved from the sandstone hillside and is probably unique as the smallest of its gender. The other monuments located here, consisting of the Kalabasha temple, a birth house and the kiosk of Qertassi, all dating to the Roman era of Egypt's history and the Temple of Gerf Hussein.Read more: The Temple of Beit el-Wali in Nubia

The Temple of Beit el-Wali in Nubia

One of Ramses II's viziers was a guy called Paser. In his tomb, there are "images of Paser adoring the gods, funerary scenes, and rock-cut statues of deities in the shrine". Listed are also praises of Ramses II and Seti I (his father).

Biographical Texts from Ramessid Egypt - Elizabeth Frood - Google Books

If Ramses II believed he was the only god his people had, why would one of his viziers be buried in a tomb that shows him worshiping other gods as well as him?

The Quran does not state that Ramses II believed his people had no deity above him. It quotes him as saying that he believed his people had no god but him.

Clearly, this was not true. Ramses II built temples to his other gods, and appointed his viziers to serve and worship them. When they died, it was mentioned in their tombs that they served these deities.

 

[TG123456]

Secondly, Ramses II died when he was in his nineties. In addition to being very old, he also was in poor health.

Ramesses the Great’s mummy shows that he stood over six feet in height with a strong, jutting jaw, thin nose and thick lips. He suffered from dental problems, severe arthritis and hardening of the arteries and, most likely, died from old age or heart failure. He was known to later Egyptians as the 'Great Ancestor’ and many pharaohs would do him the honor of taking his name as their own; none of them, however, would surpass the grand achievements and glory of Ramesses the Great.

How likely is it that a sickened 90 year old man would have been able to get into a chariot to pursue runaway slaves?


The last problem with the identification of Ramses II as the Pharaoh of the Quran can be actually found in the Islamic-Awareness article. As the authors point out, Ramses II had a lot of buildings constructed.

Ramesses II was involved in more building projects than any other Pharaoh throughout the history of ancient Egypt. Commenting on Ramesses II's incredible obsession with building, Kitchen notes that:

He desired to work not merely on the grand scale - witness the Ramesseum, Luxor, Abu Simbel, and the now vanished splendours of Pi-Ramesse - but on the widest possible front as the years passed.... But certainly in his building works for the gods the entire length of Egypt and Nubia, Ramesses II surpassed not only the Eighteenth Dynasty but every other period in Egyptian history. In that realm, he certainly fulfilled the dynasty's aim for satiety.[60]
​

Similarly, Clayton acknowledges Ramesses II as a pre-eminent builder among the Pharaohs of ancient Egypt and states that his greatest feat was the building of two temples at Abu Simbel, especially the Great Temple.

As a monument builder Ramesses II stands pre-eminent amongst the pharaohs of Egypt. Although Khufu had created the Great Pyramid, Ramesses' hand lay over the whole land. True, he thought nothing of adding his name to other kings' monuments and statues right back to the Middle Kingdom, so that nowadays the majority of cartouches seen on almost any monument proclaim his throne name - User-maat-re ('the justice of Re is strong'). Yet his genuine building achievements are on a Herculean scale. He added to the great temples at Karnak and Luxor, completed his father Seti's mortuary temple at Gourna (Thebes) and also his Abydos temple, and built his own temple nearby at Abydos. On the west bank at Thebes he constructed a giant mortuary temple, the Ramesseum. Inscriptions in the sandstone quarries at Gebel el-Silsila record at least 3000 workmen employed there cutting the stone for the Ramesseum alone. Other major mortuary temples rose in Nubia at Beit el-Wali, Gerf Hussein, Wadi es Sebua, Derr and even as far south as Napata.
Ramesses' greatest building feat must be counted not one of these, but the carving out of the mountainside of the two temples at Abu Simbel in Nubia. The grandeur of the larger, the Great Temple, is overwhelming, fronted as it is by four colossal 60-ft (18-m) high seated figures of the king that flanked the entrance in two pairs. It is strange to reflect that whilst the smaller temple, dedicated to Hathor and Ramesses' favourite queen Nefertari, has lain open for centuries, the Great Temple was only discovered in 1813 by the Swiss explorer Jean Louis Burckhardt and first entered by Giovanni Belzoni on 1 August 1817. A miracle of ancient engineering, its orientation was so exact that the rising sun at the equinox on 22 February and 22 October flooded directly through the great entrance to illuminate three of the four gods carved seated in the sanctuary over 200 ft (60 m) inside the mountain (the fourth of the seated gods, Ptah, does not become illuminated as, appropriately, he is a god associated with the underworld).[61]

The Identification Of Pharaoh During The Time Of Moses

​

Many of these buildings, like the Temple of Abu Simbel, are still around today. Yet the Quran's author claims that God leveled the buildings that Pharaoh and his men built, to the ground.

7:137 states:

And We made a people, considered weak (and of no account), inheritors of lands in both east and west, - lands whereon We sent down Our blessings. The fair promise of thy Lord was fulfilled for the Children of Israel , because they had patience and constancy, and We levelled to the ground the great works and fine buildings which Pharaoh and his people erected (with such pride) [mā kāna yaṣnaʿu firʿawna wa qawhumū wa mā kānū yaʿrishūn]. [Qur'an 7:137]

​

There is no evidence whatsoever of Ramses II's works being destroyed in any natural disaster, like an earthquake or strong winds, or volcano or anything of the sort.

The website's authors claim that 7:137 could be a reference to the city Ramses II built, which was one of the greatest in the region at that time, Pr Ramses. The city is no more... but this is not due to any of its buildings being destroyed by God.

Pr (or Pi) Ramses was located along part of the Nile River which dried out. Because of this, the kings of the 21st Dynasty relocated their capital, and transported the monuments there, and to other cities. There was no destruction of Ramses' buildings. You can see many of them still. The other ones were dismantled and moved by other pagan rulers.

In ancient times, there were many more branches of the Nile river located in the Delta, but only two remain. Pi Ramesse was located on an extinct branch that dried out beginning in the 20th Dynasty. Hence, kings of the 21sty Dynasty moved virtually all the monuments, item by item, to the new capital at Tanis (as well as to other cities).
It is probable that a number of temples were located within this ancient city. These religious centers included a great temple of Re, along with other temples to Amun, Ptah and Sutekh (Set, or Seth). The remains of the temple dedicated to Sutekh have been located in the southern part of the city. There were probably many other smaller temples and chapels. We believe that among these were temples dedicated to Wadjit and Astarte.

Read more: Egypt: Qantir, Ancient Pi-Ramesse
​

The details of the life and works of Ramses II clash with what the Quran states about the Pharaoh.

Ramses II had his men worship him, but he also had them worship other Egyptian gods. He wouldn't have believed he was the only god his people have.

Ramses II was an extremely old man when he died, who was suffering from arthritis and hardening of the arteries. That he would have jumped into a chariot to pursue runaway Israelite slaves is very hard to believe.

Ramses II was known for making monuments and buildings... many of them can still be seen today. There is no evidence of any of his buildings being destroyed by anyone or anything - other than those pagan rulers who took them apart to rebuild them in other cities.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I am unaware of any record either of the Israelites being slaves in Egypt, ...

What about Semitic slaves? … 'Apiru slaves?

 

[TG123456]

What about Semitic slaves? … 'Apiru slaves?

The 'Apiru were not the Hebrews. They were not an ethnic but social group of people, who were comprised of many different groups in that region. They were mostly nomads, and would sometimes rebel against the powers that be. As Anson F Rainey points out in his book, Pomengranates and Golden Bells, they were not the same people as the Hebrews.

Pomegranates and Golden Bells: Studies in Biblical, Jewish, and Near Eastern ... - Google Books


Ancient Egypt did have Semitic slaves, that is true. There is historical record of the Canaanites and Hyskos fighting the Egyptians and being taken as slaves. There is no record of Hebrews being slaves in Egypt, at least, not until their nation already existed.

From the site "Tour Egypt",
However, as stated earlier, there is no hard evidence that the Exodus ever took place. There is no written record regarding the Exodus, and some feel that this is no surprise, even though the Exodus would have likely occurred during a period when we have considerable documentation provided to us from the ancient Egyptians. Frankly, those who are not surprised that the Egyptians would not record the major catastrophes which accompany this biblical account, and the loss of an army to the Red Sea, are probably mistaken. Certainly it may be unlikely that the Egyptians would record such a defeat, but it is equally unlikely that they would not have recorded at least a twisted account of the event. In fact, given the gravity of the plagues which were inflicted upon the Egyptians according to the Bible, it is highly unlikely that there would not be some sort of account in at least some private tombs.

Read more: The Israelite Exodus from Egypt
​

 

[Bunyip]

Salaam Alaikum.

In both the Bible and Quran, there is the story of a Pharaoh who kept the Israelite people in slavery in Egypt, and tried to kill all the male Israelite children. He was told by Moses to let the Israelites go, refused, was struck along with his country by plagues, and drowned while pursuing Moses and his people. According to the Bible, the Israelites numbered in the hundreds of thousands- which was impossible at that time, given the population of that region then.

According to the Quran, in addition to what the Bible says about him, the Pharaoh ruled from when Moses was a child until he drowned trying to pursue him and his people. This Pharaoh not only believed he was divine, but also believed that his advisors had no god but him. At the same time, they would ask him if wanted them to abandon him and his gods. The Pharaoh of the Quran had the crops and buildings that he and his men built destroyed by God.


I am unaware of any record either of the Israelites being slaves in Egypt, or of any Pharaoh who drowned in the sea. I am also unaware of any Pharaoh who believed he was the only god his subjects had, or whose buildings and works were destroyed by God. Given all we know about the religion of Ancient Egypt, the Pharaohs were rulers of polytheistic societies. While they foolishly believed themselves to be gods, they built temples to other deities and hired people to worship them.

Is it possible that the story of Pharaoh and Moses, found in both the Bible and Quran, is fictitious?

Yes it is possible that the story is fictitious. There is no record of the Exodus or Moses in Eqyptian histories. There is also no archeological evidence for the story of Moses and Pharoh.

 

[TG123456]

Some more information on Pi-Ramses, the city that the authors of Islamic-Awareness cited as a possible example of God destroying what the Pharaoh built.

As we can see, the city began to decline after Tanis was established as the capital. The monuments were taken apart or plundered by other ancient Egyptians- who were also pagans and polytheists, like Ramses II was.

Claiming that God destroyed Pi Ramses is ludicrous, unless we assume He was directing the pagans to destroy Ramses' buildings and create other buildings of their own- which also would have been used at least partially for polytheistic worship purposes.

Also, the fact that Ramses II divided the city into several parts that are named after Egyptian but also Asiatic, gods, is more proof that he did not believe he was the only god his people knew.

Pi Rameses

Per Ramessu, also called Pi Ramesse, biblical Raamses, modern Qantīr, including the site of Tall al-Dabʿa, ancient Egyptian capital in the 15th (c. 1630–c. 1523 bce), 19th (1292–1190 bce), and 20th (1190–1075 bce) dynasties. Situated in the northeastern delta about 62 miles (100 km) northeast of Cairo, the city lay in ancient times on the Bubastite branch of the Nile River. In the early Middle Kingdom (1938–c. 1630 bce) the city witnessed the gradual influx of Palestinian peoples and became the Hyksos capital about 1530 bce. Sacked by the victorious pharaoh Ahmose I about 1521 bce, it remained obscure until the advent of the 19th dynasty, whose home was nearby. Sometime during this period the Hebrews settled in this area.
Seti I (1290–79 bce) built a palace on the site and started a faience-manufacturing industry. His successor, Ramses II, decided to move his capital there to utilize the military potential of the site. Early in his reign large temples, residences, storehouses, docks, and military facilities were built (whence the biblical name “treasure cities” stemmed, Exodus 1:11). The city was divided into four quarters, each dedicated to a deity; Amon and Wadjet were the Egyptian gods, Seth and Astarte the Asiatic, as Ramses strove to bind the religions of Syria and Egypt. In the centre of the city, the cult of the king himself was dominant. The city was not only the royal residence but also the administrative capital, as various government bureaucracies were moved there. A rich agricultural and riverine hinterland provided food and recreation for the populace. Oriented toward Egypt’s empire in Syria-Palestine, the city began to decline after the loss of the Asiatic territory in the mid-20th dynasty. Toward the end of that dynasty, the town of Tanis, 15 miles (24 km) to the north, superseded Per Ramessu. The final blow was the transfer of the royal residence to Tanis in the 21st dynasty (1075–c. 950 bce). It was the large-scale plunder and reuse of the stone of Per Ramessu that led to great confusion over the location of the Ramesside capital. Excavations started in the 1940s by Egyptian archaeologists and carried forward by an Austrian expedition since 1975 have firmly located Ramses II’s capital at Per Ramessu and also have elucidated the Hyksos period of the city.


Per Ramessu (ancient city, Egypt) -- Encyclopedia Britannica

 

[TG123456]

Yes it is possible that the story is fictitious. There is no record of the Exodus or Moses in Eqyptian histories. There is also no archeological evidence for the story of Moses and Pharoh.

Unfortunately, I think you are correct on this.

 

[Union]

W/Salam TG . While I do appreciate your deep investigation in the issue in hand , I would also like you to study Qur'an more deeply to ascertain a conclusion . Though I am time-constrained, I,at least would like to address a single issue which is among the most discussed and strong point in your proposal to prove Qur’an wrong .

You mentioned that Qur'an suggested that Pharaoh claimed him to be the only god for all his people in Egypt which contradicts the archaeological discoveries while you agreed that Pharaoh himself claimed to be one of the powerful deities. The verse you assumed to be in error is 28.38. Let us read verse again, but carefully this time :

[028:038] Pharaoh said: "O Chiefs!( ياايها المل&#1575 no god do I know for you but myself ( ماعلمت لكم من اله غير&#1610: therefore, O Haman! light me a (kiln to bake bricks) out of clay, and build me a lofty palace, that I may mount up to the god of Moses: but as far as I am concerned, I think (Moses) is a liar!"

In the above verse Pharaoh was directly addressing to his chiefs/ministers present in his assembly and not to all his subjects in Egypt or those who were not present there. As it is already proven that Ramses II claimed himself as god hence no wonder that his intimates who were present in his royal assembly at that time of incident, people like his chiefs and minister would worship of him as only god . There are no flaws in assuming so.

Moreover the following verse confirms that Pharaoh was not the only god but he himself established so many others gods for his people:

[007:127] Said the chiefs of Pharaoh's people: "Wilt thou leave Moses and his people, to spread mischief in the land, and to abandon thee and thy gods( ويذرك والهت&#1603?" He said: "Their male children will we slay; (only) their females will we save alive; and we have over them (power) irresistible.

The Arabic term ‘aalihataka’ is in plural meaning there were many gods apart from Pharaoh .

Keeping the theory of Matta religion, the following verse suggests that Pharaoh established a religious system (Din ) for his people :

[040:026] Said Pharaoh: "Leave me to slay Moses; and let him call on his Lord! What I fear is lest he should change your religion, or lest he should cause mischief to appear in the land!"

A careful study of the Qur’an concludes that the very first objection you raised against the Qur’an with respects to archeology and history is not true rather it validates the Qur'an to be accurate in this regard .

The other issues you raised have so many flaws and Qur’an is in no way in contradiction with those historical and archaeological facts , e.g., your silly claims that Ramses II couldn't ride in chariot in age of 90 , so many infracture built by Ramses II still existing thought you admitted some’s destruction etc. In time InshALLAH I will address these in details .

Take care .

 

[Mycroft]

Why these Pharaohs?

Salaam Alaikum, TG.

I was going by what historical record states as the living pharoas of the (rough) years Joseh and Moses were both in egypt.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The 'Apiru were not the Hebrews. They were not an ethnic but social group of people, who ...

I know full well what the 'Apiru/Habiru were, and I also know that there is a world of difference between claiming that the 'Apiru were not Hebrews and claiming that the Hebrews were not considered as 'Apiru. See, for example, Mendenhall's reference to the erev rav in Ancient Israel's Faith and History.

As for semitic slaves, you might wish to do better than touregypt.net.

 

[TG123456]

W/Salam TG . While I do appreciate your deep investigation in the issue in hand , I would also like you to study Qur'an more deeply to ascertain a conclusion . Though I am time-constrained, I,at least would like to address a single issue which is among the most discussed and strong point in your proposal to prove Qur’an wrong .

Peace be upon you also, Union. I appreciate your response and the time you are taking to formulate it. Let's examine it.

You mentioned that Qur'an suggested that Pharaoh claimed him to be the only god for all his people in Egypt which contradicts the archaeological discoveries while you agreed that Pharaoh himself claimed to be one of the powerful deities. The verse you assumed to be in error is 28.38. Let us read verse again, but carefully this time :

[028:038] Pharaoh said: "O Chiefs!( ياايها المل&#1575 no god do I know for you but myself ( ماعلمت لكم من اله غير&#1610: therefore, O Haman! light me a (kiln to bake bricks) out of clay, and build me a lofty palace, that I may mount up to the god of Moses: but as far as I am concerned, I think (Moses) is a liar!"

In the above verse Pharaoh was directly addressing to his chiefs/ministers present in his assembly and not to all his subjects in Egypt or those who were not present there. As it is already proven that Ramses II claimed himself as god hence no wonder that his intimates who were present in his royal assembly at that time of incident, people like his chiefs and minister would worship of him as only god . There are no flaws in assuming so.

The first time I read the verses, this is exactly what I also thought. The Pharaoh may have been one of many gods to his people. However, to his closest ones, he was the only god. Therefore, the Quran would have been correct.

However, let's look at what we know about the people who were close to the Pharaohs. Ramses II was named by Islamic-Awareness as the Exodus Pharaoh, so let's look at the people who were closest to him- which would have been the viziers. The viziers were Pharaoh's closest men, and after him, they held all the power in Egypt.

One of Ramses IIs viziers was Paser. He was appointed nu Ramses II and earlier his dad, as high priest of Amun, one of the Egyptian gods. In Paser's tomb, there are images of him worshiping the gods, and also rock cut deities in the shrine.

Paser held the office of the southern vizier under Seti I and Ramses II. In contrast to the considerable number of monuments belonging to, or associated with, Paser, that are datable to Ramses II, only his tomb attests to his being vizier under Seti I, suggesting he received that appointment near the end of his reign. His latest attestation as vizier is from year 21 of Ramses II, and his successor Khay is named on an ostracon of year 30. A statue belonging to the high priest of Amun named Paser may indicate that he was appointed to that position later in his career; his father also held that title.
Paser's tomb is located in a wadi between the hills of Khurna and Kokha in the Theban necropolis. Although it is unpublished, preliminary reports and early descriptions indicate that much of its decorative program is typical Ramessid style, incorporating images of Paser adoring the gods, funerary scenes, and rock cut statues of deities in the shrine...

Biographical Texts from Ramessid Egypt - Elizabeth Frood - Google Books

Biographical Texts from Rammesid Egypt, p 148, Elizabeth Frood

Another one of Ramses IIs viziers was Khay. His tomb contains images of him worshiping the Egyptian god Ra-Horakhty.

Luxor Times: The Famous Vizier's tomb is now found

Another vizier was Prehotep. He was assigned the task of "chief of seers of Re-Atum" as well as "chief of the crafts". Re and Atum were two of the Ancient Egyptian deities.

Biographical Texts from Ramessid Egypt - Elizabeth Frood - Google Books

Biographical Texts from Rammesid Egypt, p 158, Elizabeth Frood

The most powerful men in Egypt during the time of Ramses II- his viziers- were appointed to serve the gods that the Ancient Egyptians worshiped. They were even buried with images and statues of these deities in their tombs.

The Pharaoh (if the Pharaoh of the Quran is indeed Ramses II, as is believed by Islamic-Awareness) certainly did not believe that he was the only god his chiefs had. He appointed them to look after the other gods, and when they died, he had them buried with images of them worshiping these deities.

Moreover the following verse confirms that Pharaoh was not the only god but he himself established so many others gods for his people:

[007:127] Said the chiefs of Pharaoh's people: "Wilt thou leave Moses and his people, to spread mischief in the land, and to abandon thee and thy gods( ويذرك والهت&#1603?" He said: "Their male children will we slay; (only) their females will we save alive; and we have over them (power) irresistible.

The Arabic term ‘aalihataka’ is in plural meaning there were many gods apart from Pharaoh .

Thanks for sharing 7:127. As you did so, another question came into my head.

Notice that in 7:127, Pharaoh's chiefs are asking him if he will allow Moses and his people to abandon him and his gods. Yet in 28:38, the Pharaoh told them he is unaware of them having any gods but him.

Why would Pharaoh's chiefs be concerned that Moses does not worship the Pharaoh's gods, if they allegedly had no god but the Pharaoh? Why would Moses worshiping the other gods be an issue to the Pharaoh's chiefs, if Pharaoh was the only god they recognized?

Keeping the theory of Matta religion, the following verse suggests that Pharaoh established a religious system (Din ) for his people :

[040:026] Said Pharaoh: "Leave me to slay Moses; and let him call on his Lord! What I fear is lest he should change your religion, or lest he should cause mischief to appear in the land!"

Pharaoh said this to his chiefs, did he not? If they were worshiping only Pharaoh (which as history shows us, they weren't), then they would not be following Maat- which called for the worship of both the Pharaoh and his gods.

A careful study of the Qur’an concludes that the very first objection you raised against the Qur’an with respects to archeology and history is not true rather it validates the Qur'an to be accurate in this regard .

Unfortunately, an examination of verse 28:38 and then the history of the viziers who served under Ramses II undermines the theory that the Pharaoh's chiefs had no god but him. His highest advisors were appointed as servants to the gods, so they obviously had other gods along with the Pharaoh, even if he was their most important one. The Pharaoh himself gave them these jobs... and then buried them in tombs with depictions of them worshiping them.

Also, according to the Quran, who was Haman?

The other issues you raised have so many flaws and Qur’an is in no way in contradiction with those historical and archaeological facts , e.g., your silly claims that Ramses II couldn't ride in chariot in age of 90 , so many infracture built by Ramses II still existing thought you admitted some’s destruction etc. In time InshALLAH I will address these in details .

Take care .

I look forward to seeing your refutations. Don't forget that Ramses II not only was in his nineties, but he also had arthritis and arteries that were hardening.

The destruction I admitted to was done by other pagan Egyptians, who took apart Ramses IIs structures to build other pagan structures of their own. If this was done by God, it would follow that according to Islam He works through pagans, and replaces symbols of polytheism with other symbols of polytheism.

 

[TG123456]

Salaam Alaikum, TG.

I was going by what historical record states as the living pharoas of the (rough) years Joseh and Moses were both in egypt.

Wa alaikum salaam, Quatermass. Which historical sources were you using, and how did they come to that conclusion? Shukran, my friend.

 

[TG123456]

I know full well what the 'Apiru/Habiru were, and I also know that there is a world of difference between claiming that the 'Apiru were not Hebrews and claiming that the Hebrews were not considered as 'Apiru. See, for example, Mendenhall's reference to the erev rav in Ancient Israel's Faith and History.

As for semitic slaves, you might wish to do better than touregypt.net.

Sorry my friend, currently I don't have access to a library and won't for a few months, so your sources at the moment at least are superior to mine. Can you show me historical proof that the Israelites (not Semites- who were also of other nations) were slaves in Egypt, and that there was an escape that ended up with the drowning of a Pharaoh? I would love to see it.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

TG123456, I have no belief in a Biblical Exodus, and I have even less respect for claims that the Exodus narrative is devoid of authentic historical content. Circumstantial evidence includes the likely southern source of the YHWH cult (see Redford) and literary curiosities such the name Moses, the role played by Zipporah and her father, and the interesting pattern that addressed by Friedman. Much more can be found in Fausts's Israel's Ethnogenesis, while the evolution from the maximalist school of Albright to the minimalism of the Copenhagen School to something more balanced and nuanced is exceptionally well covered in Megan Bishop Moore's Biblical History and Israel’s Past: The Changing Study of the Bible and History.

Again, I have little patience for silly and shallow Exodus-bashing.

 

[Pastek]

Notice that in 7:127, Pharaoh's chiefs are asking him if he will allow Moses and his people to abandon him and his gods. Yet in 28:38, the Pharaoh told them he is unaware of them having any gods but him.

Why would Pharaoh's chiefs be concerned that Moses does not worship the Pharaoh's gods, if they allegedly had no god but the Pharaoh?

I think that Pharaoh was "publicly" considerated as their god but nothing indicate that Moses's people or other egyptians believed he was their only deity.

What Pharaoh said and what people believed are two different things.

Why would Moses worshiping the other gods be an issue to the Pharaoh's chiefs, if Pharaoh was the only god they recognized?

They were afraid that people follow Moses instead of Pharaoh.

 

[Pastek]

Ramses II was named by Islamic-Awareness as the Exodus Pharaoh, so let's look at the people who were closest to him- which would have been the viziers. The viziers were Pharaoh's closest men, and after him, they held all the power in Egypt.

Many say it was Merneptah, one of his son.