Who Was Baha’u’llah, and How Can We Evaluate His Claims?

[Trailblazer]

What I mean by it, is in regard to what is considered the success criteria.

So for instance what I wrote about how the Jews see or believe is the requirement for the messiah.

That would be their definition of what the messiah is and the success criteria, if a person comes along and claim to be the messiah and he doesn't live up to this definition or maybe conditions is a better word, there is a very good chance that the Jews do not believe set person is the messiah.

That's true, but why would the Jews be uniquely qualified to determine what the success criteria for the messiah are, what the conditions are under which he will come?

Frankly, I do not care what the Jews believe about the messiah because I believe they have misinterpreted their own scriptures in order to make the messiah all about them, since they believe the messiah is coming to vindicate them and restore the Torah, when in fact the messiah was not only coming for the Jews, he was coming for the whole world. Of course the Christians have done the same thing when they insist that the messiah is the same man Jesus and that there can be no 'other' messiah.

So when you (he) say that:

Baha’u’llah made a second and even more challenging claim. He declared he was the promised world messiah foretold in all the prophecies, in all the holy books, of all the religions of the world

What is the success criteria for this claim?

I do not think in terms of success criteria because I don't think the messiah was out to prove anything by being successful. The Jews believe that the messiah will do certain things withing his lifetime and that is how they will know he was the messiah, but NOWHERE in the Torah does it say when these messianic prophecies will be fulfilled.

Baha'is believe they will be fulfilled during the messianic age, which started with the coming of the Bab and Baha'u'llah, and will last no less than 1000 years from their coming. Some of the messianic prophecies have been fulfilled already, some are in the process of being fulfilled, and others have not been fulfilled yet

Does he have to match all of them, meaning all the religions claim about the messiah/savior? Because you just wrote that he didn't really matched the Jewish one, which I would agree with as animals are still eating each other and there is definitely not peace in the world.

So if he doesn't match the Jewish view is he then living up to the claim that he were the promised world messiah? or did the Jews get it wrong about who or how the messiah will appear?

How do or what is the success criteria of Baha'u'llahs claim that he is the promised world messiah, does that make it more clear what I mean?

The success criteria would be that the prophecies the refer to the coming of the messiah (what would happen when he came) have been fulfilled and that the messianic age prophecies have either been fulfilled or are in the process of being fulfilled. As i said before, there is no reason to think all of the prophecies would have been fulfilled during the lifetime of the messiah or even for a long time afterward. Nowhere in the scriptures does it say that it is the messiah that was going to fulfill these messianic age prophecies. Baha'u'llah set the process in motion by coming and completing his mission and writing what will be necessary to fulfill these prophecies, but it is the followers of the messiah and other people in the world who will bring them about (e.g., world peace).

As I said above, I believe that the Jews got it wrong because they misinterpreted their own scriptures in order to make the messiah all about them. They have also interpreted verses and chapters to be about Israel as a nation, when in fact those chapters and verses are about the messiah. For example, Jews believe that the servant songs are about the nation of Israel when in fact they are about the messiah, who is a suffering servant of God. Some of these verses are about Jesus who was a messiah, but most of them are about Baha'u'llah, who was the messiah of the latter days/end times.

The servant songs (also called the servant poems or the Songs of the Suffering Servant) are four songs in the Book of Isaiah in the Hebrew Bible, which include Isaiah 42:1–4; Isaiah 49:1–6; Isaiah 50:4–11; and Isaiah 52:13–53:12.

Servant songs - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Servant_songs

Jews believe that Isaiah 53 is about the nation of Israel. Read the chapter and tell me how it can be about the nation of Israel. Throughout the chapter it refers to "he" and "him" indicating it is about a man. Christians believe it is about Jesus, who was the messiah, but Baha'is believe it is about Baha'u'llah. There in the valley of ‘Akká, in sight of holy ‘Carmel’, the entire prophecy of the fifty-third chapter of Isaiah was brought to its fulfillment. Other chapters of Isaiah are also about the messiah, what would happen when he comes, and the coming of Baha'u'llah fits them to a tee.

Regarding Isaiah 53:3, Jesus was not rejected by most men. Jesus was esteemed by many men. Isaiah 53:8, Isaiah 53:9, and Isaiah 53:10 cannot apply to Jesus because Jesus was not taken from prison and from judgment, Jesus did not make His grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death. Jesus made his soul an offering for sin, but He did not see his seed and His days were not prolonged, so there is no way Isaiah 53:10 can be about Jesus.

Isaiah 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Bahá’u’lláh was rejected by his own countrymen, and was sent into exile. His life was filled with grief and sorrow. The Emperor Franz Joseph passed within but a short distance of the prison in which Bahá’u’lláh was captive. Louis Napoleon cast behind his back the letter which Bahá’u’lláh sent to him, saying: “If this man is of God, then I am two Gods!” The people of the world have followed in their footsteps.

Isaiah 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

I read the following words of Bahá’u’lláh concerning his persecution and imprisonment: “Though weariness lay Me low, and hunger consume Me, and the bare rock be My bed, and My fellows the beasts of the field, I will not complain, but will endure patiently … and will render thanks unto God under all conditions … We pray that, out of His bounty—exalted be He—He may release, through this imprisonment, the necks of men from chains and fetters…” The Promised Day is Come, Shoghi Effendi, pp. 42–3.

Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Bahá’u’lláh was twice stoned, once scourged, thrice poisoned, scarred with hundred-pound chains which cut through his flesh and rested upon the bones of his shoulders. He lived a prisoner and an exile for nearly half a century.

Isaiah 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

Bahá’u’lláh was taken from the black-pit prison in Tihrán for judgement before the authorities. His death was expected hourly, but he was banished to ‘Iráq and finally to Israel. In the prison-city of ‘Akká, on another occasion, “… the Governor, at the head of his troops, with drawn swords, surrounded (Bahá’u’lláh’s) house. The entire populace, as well as the military authorities, were in a state of great agitation. The shouts and clamour of the people could be heard on all sides. Bahá’u’lláh was peremptorily summoned to the Governorate, interrogated, kept in custody the first night … The Governor, soon after, sent word that he was at liberty to return to his home, and apologized for what had occurred.” God Passes By, Shoghi Effendi, pp. 190–191.

Isaiah 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

Bahá’u’lláh was buried in the precincts of the Mansion of Bahjí, owned by a wealthy Muslim. He was surrounded by enemies; members of his own family who betrayed his trust after his death and dwelt in homes adjacent to his burial-place.

Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

Bahá’u’lláh did see his ‘seed’. He wrote a special document called the Book of the Covenant, in which he appointed his eldest son to be the Centre of his Faith after his own passing. This very event was also foretold in the prophecies of the Psalms that proclaim:“Also I will make him my first-born higher than the kings of the earth … and my covenant shall stand fast with him.” (Psalms 89:27, 28) The ‘first-born’ son of Bahá’u’lláh, was named ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, which means ‘the servant of Bahá’(‘u’lláh). Bahá’u’lláh appointed him as his own successor in his Will and Testament. He called ‘Abdu’l-Baháthe Centre of his Covenant.

Bahá’u’lláh’s days were prolonged. He was born in 1817 and passed away in the Holy Land in 1892. In the last years of his life, Bahá’u’lláh was released from his prison cell. He came out of the prison-city of ‘Akká and walked on the sides of Mount Carmel. His followers came from afar to be with him, and to surround him with their love, fulfilling the words of the prayer of David spoken within a cave: “Bring my soul out of prison, that I may praise thy name: the righteous shall compass me about; for thou shalt deal bountifully with me.” (Psalms 142:7)

Thief in the Night, pp. 155-159

 

[Truthseeker]

Baha'u'llah performed miracles but He did not offer them as proof of His Prophethood.

Bahá’u’lláh forbade His followers to attribute miracles to Him because this would have amounted to the degradation of His exalted station. Nevertheless, there are many accounts left to posterity by His disciples, describing the circumstances in which He either healed incurables or raised the dead.

None of these supernatural acts were considered by His followers to be a proof of the truth of His Cause, since they are only convincing to a limited number of people and they are not decisive proofs even for those who see them.

* * * * * * * * * * * *

One time, the religious leaders in Persia asked Baha’u’llah to perform a miracle to prove the reality of His mission. Here’s what happened:

The ‘ulama recognize without hesitation and confess the knowledge and virtue of Bahá’u’lláh, and they are unanimously convinced that in all learning he has no peer or equal; and it is also evident that he has never studied or acquired this learning; but still the ‘ulama say, ‘We are not contented with this; we do not acknowledge the reality of his mission by virtue of his wisdom and righteousness. Therefore, we ask him to show us a miracle in order to satisfy and tranquilize our hearts.’

Bahá’u’lláh replied, “Although you have no right to ask this, for God should test His creatures, and they should not test God, still I allow and accept this request. But the Cause of God is not a theatrical display that is presented every hour, of which some new diversion may be asked for every day. If it were thus, the Cause of God would become mere child’s play.

The ulamas must, therefore, assemble, and, with one accord, choose one miracle, and write that, after the performance of this miracle they will no longer entertain doubts about Me, and that all will acknowledge and confess the truth of My Cause. Let them seal this paper, and bring it to Me. This must be the accepted criterion: if the miracle is performed, no doubt will remain for them; and if not, We shall be convicted of imposture.” The learned man, Hasan ‘Amu, rose and replied, “There is no more to be said”; he then kissed the knee of the Blessed One although he was not a believer, and went. He gathered the ‘ulama and gave them the sacred message. They consulted together and said, “This man is an enchanter; perhaps he will perform an enchantment, and then we shall have nothing more to say.” Acting on this belief, they did not dare to push the matter further. [The penetrating judgment of Bahá’u’lláh upon this occasion overcame the malignity of His enemies, who, it was certain, would never agree in choosing what miracle to ask for.] (Abdu’l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 29-30)

* * * * * * * * * * * * *

Bahá’u’lláh seldom responded positively to those who demanded miracles from Him. But He often revealed a measure of His glory and power to those who had recognized Him in order to strengthen their Faith:

It is not right for man to test God. Bahá’u’lláh seldom responded positively to those who demanded miracles from Him. But He often revealed a measure of His glory and power to those who had recognized Him in order to strengthen their Faith. (Adib Taherzadeh, The Revelation of Baha’u’llah v 4, p. 54-55)

From: Famous Miracles in the Baha’i Faith

I love Susan Gammage's site. She obviously has put so much work into it.

 

[Nimos]

That's true, but why would the Jews be uniquely qualified to determine what the success criteria for the messiah are, what the conditions are under which he will come?

Frankly, I do not care what the Jews believe about the messiah because I believe they have misinterpreted their own scriptures in order to make the messiah all about them, since they believe the messiah is coming to vindicate them and restore the Torah, when in fact the messiah was not only coming for the Jews, he was coming for the whole world. Of course the Christians have done the same thing when they insist that the messiah is the same man Jesus and that there can be no 'other' messiah.

Whether you agree with them or not, is not really important, because this is what they believe to be the case based on Torah.

So the Jews are wrong according to you, which might be case or it might not, I don't know. But there seem to be a wide agreement that this is in fact what the Torah is saying.

My point being is that when Baha'u'llah made the claim that he is the messiah for all the major religions, one of the success criteria or conditions, would be that the Jews realize that they are wrong about their interpretation of the Torah.

That would be needed for the claim he made to be considered true. Yet that doesn't seem to have happened, for whatever reason the Jews weren't convinced that Baha'u'llah were the messiah, despite whether they got the interpretation wrong or not. He ought to have been able to somehow convince them that they were wrong. Wouldn't you agree with that?

The success criteria would be that the prophecies the refer to the coming of the messiah (what would happen when he came) have been fulfilled and that the messianic age prophecies have either been fulfilled or are in the process of being fulfilled. As i said before, there is no reason to think all of the prophecies would have been fulfilled during the lifetime of the messiah or even for a long time afterward.

But if we can't trust the interpretation of the Torah, meaning if they got it wrong, how or why would we expect them to interpret any of the prophecies correctly then?

And how would we measure against that, if we can't trust that any of the interpretations are correct?

What we end up with is one side vs the other each claiming different things. None of which makes it any more clear that Baha'u'llah were the messiah he claimed to be. Because clearly he didn't solve this issue and one would expect the messiah to do this in my opinion. There ought to be no doubt about it, if we are expecting such person to bring peace and harmony.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

My point being is that when Baha'u'llah made the claim that he is the messiah for all the major religions, one of the success criteria or conditions, would be that the Jews realize that they are wrong about their interpretation of the Torah.

When has that happened overnight in History?

It has taken centuries for people to initiate the change on a wider scale, before any significant numbers were embracing the Message.

Yet in 170 years we do already have a global consciousness permeating humanity.

The promise given to the Jews is supported in the Baha'i Writings, the Holy Land will shine for all humanity to see the Glory of God.

This happens as per God's plan, as many people's plans still seem to be prejudices, war and material dominance.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Because clearly he didn't solve this issue and one would expect the messiah to do this in my opinion. There ought to be no doubt about it

Have you read what Baha'u'llah offered to the world? I would ask what doubt is there?

IMHO It is what humanity needs.

All the highest aspirations that people can currently expound, are already found recorded in the Message Baha'u'llah gave.

Baha'u'llah offered this for us to consider.

"There can be no doubt whatever that the peoples of the world, of whatever race or religion, derive their inspiration from one heavenly Source, and are the subjects of one God."

That is inclusive of our diversity, but may not necessarily be what people are ready to embrace.

Regards Tony

 

[Nimos]

When has that happened overnight in History?

It has taken centuries for people to initiate the change on a wider scale, before any significant numbers were embracing the Message.

Yet in 170 years we do already have a global consciousness permeating humanity.

The promise given to the Jews is supported in the Baha'i Writings, the Holy Land will shine for all humanity to see the Glory of God.

This happens as per God's plan, as many people's plans still seem to be prejudices, war and material dominance.

Regards Tony

Im not having a go at Baha'u'llah or anything, im purely trying to figure out what the success conditions are for these claims.

So another condition could be that there is no time limit?

Yet, if he made the claim that he was the messiah for the whole world, and that this could be expressed at any point in time, whether it was 5 years from he made the claim to 10000 years from now. I personally think that the claim is kind of weak, if we are to take it serious, because the conditions he have put forward are so vague that its almost pointless.

 

[1213]

Then why did Jesus ask us to pray for the kingdom to come?
Do you believe that the kingdom of God came after this prayer was revealed?
...

Jesus said about the kingdom:

"The Kingdom of God doesn't come with observation; neither will they say, 'Look, here!' or, 'Look, there!' for behold, the Kingdom of God is within you."
Luke 17:20-21

Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, then my servants would fight, that I wouldn't be delivered to the Jews. But now my kingdom is not from here."
John 18:36

Jesus answered him, "Most assuredly, I tell you, unless one is born anew, he can't see the Kingdom of God." Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb, and be born?" Jesus answered, "Most assuredly I tell you, unless one is born of water and spirit, he can't enter into the Kingdom of God! That which is born of the flesh is flesh. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Don't marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born anew.'
John 3:3-7

Because of those I think the Kingdom is formed of the people who are born anew, it comes when that happens to people. And I think it has been coming every day after Jesus preached his message. By words Jesus declared there can happen change in person so that he is born anew. And it means this:

But as many as received him, to them he gave the right to become God's children, to those who believe in his name: who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 1:12-13

It is the spirit who gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life.
John 6:63

"For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel. After those days," says the Lord; "I will put my laws into their mind, I will also write them on their heart. I will be to them a God, And they will be to me a people. They will not teach every man his fellow citizen, Every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' For all will know me, From the least of them to the greatest of them. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness. I will remember their sins and lawless deeds no more."
Hebrews 8:10-12 (Jeremiah 31:31-34)

...Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10

 

[Truthseeker]

According to the Torah, the Messiah will be:

• a male descendant of the Jewish King David
• human - he will have a human birth and human parents
• a perfect teacher of God’s law
• a great political leader - inspirational and a good judge
• able to rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem
• ruler over humanity - but he will rule with kindness
• the bringer of peace to the world
• able to unite humanity

One problem is that there are actually two figures referred to in my opinion as far as future Messiahs. One is Jesus, the other Baha'u'llah. The one able to unite humanity and bring peace to the world is Baha'u'llah. Of course this has not happened yet, but we Baha'is see all that as inevitable as the Baha'is follow the blueprint laid out by Baha'u'llah (referred to as the "lesser plan") and God Himself in some way not understood by me arrange the course of events so it would happen (the "greater plan"). All Messengers of God in a spiritual sense are "rulers of humanity". Jesus Christ in the Gospels is referred to as a king, but this is meant in a spiritual sense. A lot stuff you mention there is a result of a literal interpretation of scripture, and Baha'is see most prophecies as metaphorical.

Our interpretations of prophecies will not convince very many people. There can be so many interpretations of the same prophecy. The best we can do is to present a lot of interpretations together, the aggregate will convince some and cause others to investigate further. William Sears did that in Thief in the Night.

As @Trailblazer has indicated the best way to evaluate a Prophet in our opinion is by their fruits as Jesus said, not by them fulfilling prophecies. Jesus didn't say one word about prophecies when evaluating whether a Prophet is true or not. Of course you are not a Christian so this may mean nothing to you. Baha'u'llah also didn't mention prophecies in evaluating the validity of a Messenger. That doesn't mean there has been no interpretation of prophecies of Baha'u'llah and 'Abdu'l-Baha, but they are not the central criteria of evaluation a Messenger of God.

The Messianic Age
During this time, people will live in peace, all Jews will return to Israel and all people will turn to the Jewish god as the one true God.

Food and water will be plentiful, crops will grow with high yields and animals will not prey on each other.

People living in peace refers to sometime not known to us in this age. I don't think the scriptures actually indicate that all Jews will return to Israel, but Jews think this because as far as they are concerned for obvious reasons this is not the Messianic age. There is one God, there is no Jewish god in a sense. The last sentence is prophecies interpreted literally by them.

 

[Truthseeker]

To me, God is deceptive and misleader if Bahais are right. They do sort of the same thing Sunnis do with Prophet's (s) words appointing Ali (a), give alternative obtuse meanings rather then clear meaning by language.

I can't do that to God.

Day of judgment, seal of Prophets, the Mahdi in Hadiths and Quran, all of it, they have to twist.

We all have our different interpretations. See the above about how little importance we give prophecies anyway in establishing whether a Messenger is true or not.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Im not having a go at Baha'u'llah or anything, im purely trying to figure out what the success conditions are for these claims.

So another condition could be that there is no time limit?

Yet, if he made the claim that he was the messiah for the whole world, and that this could be expressed at any point in time, whether it was 5 years from he made the claim to 10000 years from now. I personally think that the claim is kind of weak, if we are to take it serious, because the conditions he have put forward are so vague that its almost pointless.

Sorry it is just my to the point mentality and writing style.

I see the time limits and expectations we place on prophecy becomes a veil between us and God. We are just asked to be ready to embrace the Messages sent by God and it is by the fruit of that Message, that we will again know God is speaking to us.

I have come to view all prophecy as timeless. What I have found is, that as new information comes ro hand, it always makes one rethink what they once thought they had a sound grasp on.

I have that thought about prophecy, as Baha'u'llah has offered that all the Messengers do fulfill all prophecy, though to outward appearance they have not.

I just realise that I have no concept how the material and spiritual worlds interact, so I realise I must be open to ever changing frames of references.

Baha'u'llah offered the Messengers have a twofold station.

"...One is the station of pure abstraction and essential unity........"

".......It is clear and evident to thee that all the Prophets are the Temples of the Cause of God, Who have appeared clothed in divers attire. If thou wilt observe with discriminating eyes, thou wilt behold Them all abiding in the same tabernacle, soaring in the same heaven, seated upon the same throne, uttering the same speech, and proclaiming the same Faith. Such is the unity of those Essences of Being, those Luminaries of infinite and immeasurable splendor! Wherefore, should one of these Manifestations of Holiness proclaim saying: “I am the return of all the Prophets,” He, verily, speaketh the truth. In like manner, in every subsequent Revelation, the return of the former Revelation is a fact, the truth of which is firmly established…."

".....The other station is the station of distinction, and pertaineth to the world of creation, and to the limitations thereof. In this respect, each Manifestation of God hath a distinct individuality, a definitely prescribed mission, a predestined revelation, and specially designated limitations. Each one of them is known by a different name, is characterized by a special attribute, fulfils a definite mission, and is entrusted with a particular Revelation..."

So in this age we have signs given. Knowledge shall increase exponentially, which really started in the 1800's, the Jews would be gifted the return to the Holy Land as promised etc.

There are many signs offered about the end of ages, all are pointing to this day, yet it does take time to see they are fulfilled. So why are we not looking if God has guided us, The signs are unfolding, so is there a Message?

It is obvious we are supposed to be awake and looking for the signs of fulfillment, as we have been warned there will be many false claims as well, but amongst those claims there will be what we are looking for and by the fruit we will know them. But if we are not looking, well what can we find?

There is just so much to offer, there is so much that has been given to us, but we must be looking, the search never stops.

Regards Tony

 

[dybmh]

I don't think the scriptures actually indicate that all Jews will return to Israel

Jeremiah 29:14 I will be found by you, declares the LORD, and I will restore you from captivity and gather you from all the nations and places to which I have banished you, declares the LORD. I will restore you to the place from which I sent you into exile."

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Jeremiah 29:14 I will be found by you, declares the LORD, and I will restore you from captivity and gather you from all the nations and places to which I have banished you, declares the LORD. I will restore you to the place from which I sent you into exile."

View attachment 63385

Thanks for that. I read that differently. I do not see that it says all will return, but I see it does say that Jews did spread to all Nations and they will return from all Nations.

I would also suggest many may not decide to live in Israel, but the door will never be closed for a visit to all the holy places. God bless.

Regards Tony

 

[dybmh]

Thanks for that. I read that differently. I do not see that it says all will return, but I see it does say that Jews did spread to all Nations and they will return from all Nations.

Regards Tony

It says God will gather the Jews from all nations and all places. All means all.

 

[Valjean]

Jeremiah 29:14 I will be found by you, declares the LORD, and I will restore you from captivity and gather you from all the nations and places to which I have banished you, declares the LORD. I will restore you to the place from which I sent you into exile."

Why are you quoting the Tanakh? It has not been established as true. You might just s reasonably quote the Quran, Vedas or Chronicles of Narnia.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

It says God will gather the Jews from all nations and all places. All means all.

Yes I agreed it says from all Nations all places.

I added this above, you were very quick.

I would also suggest many may not decide to live in Israel, but the door will never be closed for a visit to all the holy places. God bless.

Regards Tony

 

[dybmh]

Why are you quoting the Tanakh? It has not been established as true. You might just s reasonably quote the Quran, Vedas or Chronicles of Narnia.

The previous poster said that the return of all Jewish exhiles was not scriptural. Jeremiah 29:14 refutes this claim.

 

[dybmh]

God bless.

Thank you, you too

 

[Trailblazer]

I see the time limits and expectations we place on prophecy becomes a veil between us and God.

I have come to view all prophecy timeless.

A prophecy is timeless unless there is a time given in the prophecy. Anything else is just our personal expectation.

I know of no prophecies that specify when there will be world peace. People read into prophecies what they already believe, which is what they want to believe.

Isaiah 2 King James Version (KJV)

2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

The verse says that "nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more" but it does not say when that will happen. An age is a period of time. Nowhere in any scriptures does it say that peace will be established during the lifetime of the Messiah, and nowhere in scriptures does it say when during the last days peace would be established.

As you know Baha'is believe that the last days were ushered in by the coming of Baha'u'llah, so we are living in the last days now, also referred to as the Messianic Age. Baha'u'llah has ushered in an "age" of worldwide peace. During this age, world peace will be established and all the prophecies that have not yet been fulfilled will be fulfilled.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

A prophecy is timeless unless there is a time given in the prophecy. Anything else is just our personal expectation.

Yes I agree It has been shown that numbers can have a definite point of reference. Such as the 1260 prophecy.

I just further consider that it could also have other ways of looking at it that, to also predict the other events. Like 1260 = 9, 9 being a number that has significance in the Revelation predicted by 1260. It is alao made up or a 1, a 2, a 6, and a 0. Each number having manifold connection to greater understandings.

1260 also predicts the event of Muhammad, but we could say that it is in reverse. We had to get to the year AH1260 to know what Daniel and Revelation was offering.

Anyway, would it be great if a unified world was discussing such things, finding the deeper meanings rather than pursuing wars.

Regards Tony

 

[dybmh]

Nowhere in any scriptures does it say that peace will be established during the lifetime of the Messiah,

Zechariah 9:9-10

9 Be exceedingly happy, O daughter of Zion; Shout, O daughter of Jerusalem. Behold! Your king shall come to you. He is just and victorious; humble, and riding a donkey and a foal, the offspring of [one of] she-donkeys.

10 And I will cut off the chariots from Ephraim, and the horses from Jerusalem; and the bow of war shall be cut off. And he shall speak peace to the nations, and his rule shall be from the sea to the west and from the river to the ends of the earth. ​