Who repsonsible for the death of Jesus?

[cachibatches]

I have always wondered this, and am hoping some astute Christians can answer me.

Are Judas and Pilate responsible for the death of Jesus if indeed it was all part of god's immutable plan? Or is there some means in which we all still someone have free will, and they are still responsible for their part of it?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Muslim Atheism]

This is not quite relevant but I believe Jesus was not crucified, neither he is still living or will return. . He died naturally somewhere else. . probably he went to India etc. However, my contention is different than the Christians's belief, and than the conventional Muslims' belief. . .

God said, “O Jesus!

I will cause you to die of natural causes,
I will exalt you (honour) in My Sight
and will clear you of the slander of the disbelievers.
And I will cause those who truly follow you to dominate those who reject,
until the Day of Resurrection.
Eventually, all of you will return to Me.
Then I will judge among you about that wherein you used to differ.”​

Ali-Imran:55

. . .

And for claiming, “We killed the Messiah Jesus son of Mary, God’s Messenger.”

They never killed him
and never crucified him (mean he is somewhere else)
But it appeared so to them
and the matter remained dubious to them
Those who hold conflicting views on this issue are but confused
They have no real knowledge
and they are following mere conjecture
Most certainly, they never killed him
Nay, God exalted him (honour) in His Sight
God is Almighty, Wise.​

Everyone among the People of the Book
must believe before dying (specifically referring to people of that time, only. . therefore, they knew it is not Jesus, but ?)

in the truth just stated
Jesus will be a witness against them on the Day of Resurrection.
[refer below, 5:116-117. Neither was he crucified nor raised to the heavens.]​

(4:157-159)

. . .

On the Resurrection Day
God will say: O Jesus, son of Mary!

Did you say to mankind, “Worship me and my mother as gods besides God?‘​

He will respond,

”Be You Glorified!
I could never say what was not my right.

If I said such a thing
You would certainly know it
You know what is in my mind
and I do not know what is in Your mind
You are the Knower of what is beyond human perception.”
“Never did I say to them except what You commanded me to say
’Worship and obey God my Lord and your Lord.’​

I was a witness to them as long as I lived AMONG them (he could have travelled to India etc)
After You caused me to die (he have died, and he died of natural causes, old ages etc)
You were the Watcher over them and You are Witness over all things and events.​

(5.116-117)​

Therefore . . he was not crucified, and there is no issue he will return on Earth, nor he was raised to the heavens, as what the conventional muslim believe.

He died thousand years ago.

some of these facts probably true. . .

The Tomb of Jesus

"This tomb was bult in a Jewish style of a sepulchre, with a room underground, having a side door. The shrine is quite distinct from the Muslim shrines, which have the Buddhist style of conic domes..."


[youtube]8cy8M4VzU-Y[/youtube]
Jesus in Kashmir,India(BBC Documentry)-3 - YouTube

[youtube]e_Ecm4gMhiM[/youtube]
Jesus In Kashmir (India) - Documentary by Indian Govt. - YouTube

 

[Estro Felino]

Caiaphas, of course.
All right, Judas betrayed him...but he didn't kill him-.
It was that disgusting being called Caiaphas, a Pharisee, that killed him.
Because he was a devilish, mean and wicked person,

Of course Jesus was not meant to be crucified. He was here to teach us love.
Not to suffer and to be humiliated like a criminal.
Besides that, not even the worst of the murderers, deserve to die on a cross.
Not to mention Jesus...

 

[Muslim Atheism]

not even the worst of the murderers, deserve to die on a cross.

So what is the true meaning of the Cross?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Metaphorically speaking, all of us.

 

[Muslim Atheism]

That is interesting. . .can you please explain further?

 

[Estro Felino]

So what is the true meaning of the Cross?

That it is better to be a victim rather than a perpetrator
Turn the other cheek

 

[Muslim Atheism]

That's good. . can it achieve balance and justice ?

 

[Estro Felino]

That's good. . can it achieve balance ?

actually if there werent perpetrators, there would be no victims at all.

so if we want to avoid victimization, we must dissuade people from hating and hurting the neighbor.
No harm, no victims. No suffering

 

[Muslim Atheism]

But there will always be perpetrators , from the beginning of mankind. . and till the end of everything.

That is life and reality, yin and yang . . good and evil

So how can it achieve balance and justice ? How can it be realistic ?

 

[Estro Felino]

But there will always be perpetrators , from the beginning of mankind. . and till the end of everything.

That is life and reality, yin and yang . . good and evil

So how can it achieve balance and justice ? How can it be realistic ?

there will be justice in the afterlife.
The wicked will receive wickedness.
and the good will receive goodness
there is free will. Nobody forces people to be wicked

 

[Muslim Atheism]

People are dying, and needs to survive. . they cannot wait the afterlife. So what is the practical solution?

 

[John Martin]

So what is the true meaning of the Cross?

There is a difference between the cross and the crucifixion.
The cross is the symbol of the fullness of the Truth. It represents the one hundred percent love of God and the one hundred percent love of neighbour. The vertical beam represents the infinite and the eternal and the horizontal beam represents the finite. It is the harmony between the human and the divine. It is the symbol of the surrender of the human will to the divine will. It is the symbol of divine will operating through the human will. It is the symbol of unity, freedom and Love.The vertical is like the Sun or the star, the horizontal is like the moon. It is the Sun reflecting in the Moon or the moon receiving the Sun or the Star.
The crucifixion is the consequence of the refusal to grow into the fullness of Truth. It is the symbol of deciding to remain in the relative truth. It is the symbol of reducing the eternal truth into historical truths or conditioned truths. It is the symbol of choosing division instead of unity, choosing stagnation instead of growth, choosing slavery instead of freedom, choosing death instead of life. Only those who refuse to grow from the relative truth to the fullness of truth crucify the truth. We all do that either individually or collectively. In this sense we are all responsible for the crucifixion of Truth. Truth accepted the crucifixion for all of us,for our spiritual growth, for the unity of mankind, for the liberation of every single individual. If sin is refusal to grow then Jesus died for the sin of all human beings either individuals or collective entities.
But Truth cannot be killed. It is invincible.It will rise and always be victorious.

 

[Muslim Atheism]

Thank you John Martin. . .

 

[Estro Felino]

There is a difference between the cross and the crucifixion.
The cross is the symbol of the fullness of the Truth. It represents the one hundred percent love of God and the one hundred percent love of neighbour. The vertical beam represents the infinite and the eternal and the horizontal beam represents the finite. It is the harmony between the human and the divine. It is the symbol of the surrender of the human will to the divine will. It is the symbol of divine will operating through the human will. It is the symbol of unity, freedom and Love.The vertical is like the Sun or the star, the horizontal is like the moon. It is the Sun reflecting in the Moon or the moon receiving the Sun or the Star.
The crucifixion is the consequence of the refusal to grow into the fullness of Truth. It is the symbol of deciding to remain in the relative truth. It is the symbol of reducing the eternal truth into historical truths or conditioned truths. It is the symbol of choosing division instead of unity, choosing stagnation instead of growth, choosing slavery instead of freedom, choosing death instead of life. Only those who refuse to grow from the relative truth to the fullness of truth crucify the truth. We all do that either individually or collectively. In this sense we are all responsible for the crucifixion of Truth. Truth accepted the crucifixion for all of us,for our spiritual growth, for the unity of mankind, for the liberation of every single individual. If sin is refusal to grow then Jesus died for the sin of all human beings either individuals or collective entities.
But Truth cannot be killed. It is invincible.It will rise and always be victorious.

If they had crucified your son, I don't think that you would praise the cross (or the crucifixion, whatever) so much.
It is devilish to believe that suffering is necessary.
It's like you said that "hurting the others" is a necessary thing. because Jesus was hurt and much.

 

[bird]

Are Judas and Pilate responsible for the death of Jesus if indeed it was all part of god's immutable plan? Or is there some means in which we all still someone have free will, and they are still responsible for their part of it?

The answer to this question really has to do with what you mean by 'responsible'. The ones who carried out the act did so, some by directly crucifying and others by giving the order and others by demanding it, and can be found in Mark 4:27-28: "For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done." In other words, a coalition of Jews and Gentiles. However, since Romans 3:23 says, "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God", we understand that we have all sinned. This means that we have all participated in the crucifixion by making it necessary for Christ to die there, if we are to be saved. So all are responsible. However, it was really God who sent Jesus to the cross in the sense that it was God's plan to send him there in order to save us. That is why the first verse I mentioned says, "For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done".

 

[Estro Felino]

TSo all are responsible. However, it was really God who sent Jesus to the cross in the sense that it was God's plan to send him there in order to save us. That is why the first verse I mentioned says, "For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done".

well...there is free will. Caiaphas could have changed his mind, and decided to exile Jesus. what would have happened, then?

 

[cachibatches]

The answer to this question really has to do with what you mean by 'responsible'. The ones who carried out the act did so, some by directly crucifying and others by giving the order and others by demanding it, and can be found in Mark 4:27-28: "For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done." In other words, a coalition of Jews and Gentiles. However, since Romans 3:23 says, "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God", we understand that we have all sinned. This means that we have all participated in the crucifixion by making it necessary for Christ to die there, if we are to be saved. So all are responsible. However, it was really God who sent Jesus to the cross in the sense that it was God's plan to send him there in order to save us. That is why the first verse I mentioned says, "For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done".

So is everyone equally as responsible as Judas and Pilate and Caiaphas? do they have special guilt? Can they/will be saved by god's grace?

 

[Sabour]

No one is ever responsible for the death of others. People die because of death.

Amd Jesus peace be upon him didn't die yet. God raised him.

 

[Britedream]

I disagree, if you happen to kill someone, then you are responsible for your action, but if he or she expires on his or her own then that is obvious.