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Who Really Cares?

MaddLlama

Obstructor of justice
doppelgänger said:
This also equates "caring" with "money" in a typically "conservative" base and crude manner. What isn't considered is the amount of time and skill volunteered by people to make a difference. Money doesn't do anything by itself. All of the liberals I personally know invest THEMSELVES in the things they believe in. I volunteer legal services for several causes.

Exactly. I would rather donate my time to a local shelter (women's, homeless, animal, etc) and acually physically do something to help instead of just sending a check. If the places that I voulenteer at need monetary help, I can do that too. But, I think it's better to actually show your face and help someone personally than to just write a bunch of checks and say "there, I helped". Yeah, money helps, but it's much more helpful and rewarding to go down to the homeless shelter and make and serve the food yourself. How many conservatives and liberals comparitavely do that?

Besides, many of these charitable organizations don't spread the donated money around like they should. They may say they are "non-profit" organizations, but I get a little annoyed when I see these people who run them with million dollar houses and expensive cars, and spending the money on things that are not necessary. Like PeTA.
 

Green Gaia

Veteran Member
doppelgänger said:
This also equates "caring" with "money" in a typically "conservative" base and crude manner. What isn't considered is the amount of time and skill volunteered by people to make a difference. Money doesn't do anything by itself. All of the liberals I personally know invest THEMSELVES in the things they believe in. I volunteer legal services for several causes.

True. I don't always have money to give, but I can always give myself and my time.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
Capt. Haddock said:
But if the book is correct, and "conservatives" really are such Mother Teresa types, then hooray for them. It's a pity their charitable impulses are not reflected in...
Or in kindness towards liberals.
 

KingNothing

Member
doppelgänger said:
This also equates "caring" with "money" in a typically "conservative" base and crude manner. What isn't considered is the amount of time and skill volunteered by people to make a difference. Money doesn't do anything by itself. All of the liberals I personally know invest THEMSELVES in the things they believe in. I volunteer legal services for several causes.

I was about to scold you Dopp cuz I thought the OP addressed this, but then I went back and reread
In 2003, the residents of the top five “Bush states” were 51 percent more likely to volunteer than those of the bottom five, and they volunteered an average of 12 percent more total hours each year.

There are so many statistical assumptions in that. I think I'm gonna be sick.:faint: Republicans may spend more volunteer time, I don't know. What I do know is that comparing the top 5 republican states versus the bottom five republican states, both of which contain millions of people of various parties, is not the way to go. It sounds like the stats had to be cooked. Why not just compare conservative volunteer time versus liberal volunteer time instead of doing all this "top 5 state" crap?
 

MaddLlama

Obstructor of justice
KingNothing said:
There are so many statistical assumptions in that. I think I'm gonna be sick.:faint: Republicans may spend more volunteer time, I don't know. What I do know is that comparing the top 5 republican states versus the bottom five republican states, both of which contain millions of people of various parties, is not the way to go. It sounds like the stats had to be cooked. Why not just compare conservative volunteer time versus liberal volunteer time instead of doing all this "top 5 state" crap?

Because statistics are easy to manipulate if you gather your data in the right way?
 

Yerda

Veteran Member
Radio Frequency X said:
Who Really Cares - Finally a study proving what I've been saying for years, Liberals don't.
I'm surprised by this. Of all the charitable or compassionate projects I've been involved in during my relatively short periods of activism I can't say I've encountered enough political conservatives to make a five-a-side football side. I'm interested however.
 

Mathematician

Reason, and reason again
I have a few problems with this:

1.) How would you figure out how much money someone has donated without asking them and taking their word for truth? I've sent money to the Red Cross and a few local groups for our fallen friends, and I not once did my stance on issues come up.

2.) I'd also be interested to see if churches were included in this. I've encountered many conservatives who donate thousands of dollars annually to their church. While I see nothing wrong with that, a lot of that many doesn't filter outside of the institution.

3.) How is it that the poorest of the poor are conservatives? It might just be me, but that just doesn't make sense.

5.) What constitutes a person being a conservative? Their own admission?

6.) There are more self-described conservatives in American than liberals. Judging by what I've briefly read, they didn't use percentages. Why not?

6.) Where are Moderates and Libertarians?

But hey, if conservatives are up for it, might as well raise taxes and help the needy even more. :p
 

gnomon

Well-Known Member
I'm more concerned that people may actually be looking at themselves in the mirror and holding pride in calling themselves liberal or conservative.

I see a future market in dunce caps.
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
Radio Frequency X said:
You mean, that they leave it up to the government to take other people's money for charity than spending their own? Maybe. Just a little. Personally, I think for all their rhetoric, they don't actually care. They want to feel like they care, without actually having to back up their feelings with actions.

It's nice to actually see my views mirrored! Thanks!

They like BIG GOVERNMENT...there...intruding in every aspect of your life...draining you with taxation, amongst other things.
 

Green Gaia

Veteran Member
dawny0826 said:
They like BIG GOVERNMENT...there...intruding in every aspect of your life...draining you with taxation, amongst other things.
And conservatives want to force their religion into every aspect of our lives, intruding into our private and personal matters... between the two, I'll take the higher taxes, thanks.
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
Maize said:
And conservatives want to force their religion into every aspect of our lives, intruding into our private and personal matters... between the two, I'll take the higher taxes, thanks.

I don't care to force my religion into your life.

I'm a woman with two children, desparately trying to make ends meet. I need a candidate who cares about ME and my financial struggles and encourages people in my situation to get out there and do something for the good of their community with the resources they have as opposed to draining me with taxes.

I work for a non profit organization and I see on a daily basis how much positive influence people can have in their community WITHOUT being taxed out of their rears and without being forced to support programs they don't stand for.

I understand where your'e coming from but there are people who do care about people in their community, race, religion and sexual preference, not a factor...and have to support conservative politicians because it's the conservative politician that goes up to bat for the middle class!
 

MaddLlama

Obstructor of justice
dawny0826 said:
It's nice to actually see my views mirrored! Thanks!

They like BIG GOVERNMENT...there...intruding in every aspect of your life...draining you with taxation, amongst other things.

I feel the same way about conservative run governments. Except, they give the rich people tax cuts, and everyone else has to pay normal taxes.
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
MaddLlama said:
I feel the same way about conservative run governments. Except, they give the rich people tax cuts, and everyone else has to pay normal taxes.

Prove it!:D

Prove to me that the rich are the only ones who qualify for tax cuts. Show me statistics.

What are "normal" taxes?
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
MaddLlama said:
What I mean is tax breaks for the corporations, the ones who should be paying the taxes they owe.
http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=11570

I had a hunch. :D

How is it fair to tax the crap out of the upper class for the benefit of everyone else? I don't think that's fair.

The Democrat in office hurts the middle class citizen. That's who takes it in the gut. I'm taxed out of my rear, so that others can be supported via programs that the government makes available to those who "qualify". The rich are still rich. That 2% of America, who is truly, filthy rich...stays rich, regardless...but my family suffers in the name of BIG GOVERNMENT.

Sorry, but I don't think that's fair. It's not fair to me. It's not fair to my family. Corporate America may be given unfair breaks but corporate America also employs everyone else...the Middle Class folk as well as the poor.

Corporate America ALSO contributes quite a bit to charitable causes which YES...does give them a break in taxes. And I think in this regard, rightfully so.

But the Democrat doesn't CARE at all about my family. I'm taxed unfairly for the benefit of THEIR programs which in my opinion, has an oppressive effect on many who utilize them.

If you lowered taxes ACROSS THE BOARD...which Republicans DO...you give everyone the opportunity to make the most out of their financial situation, in their income tax brackett. You give BOTH the Middle Class and the "RICH" the financial ability to GIVE to charitable organizations that in turn...give to those less fortunate. You give those with lower incomes the opportunity to maximize their dollar as they too are taxed less...in fact taxed less than the middle class as well as the "rich"...because they're in the LOWER income tax brackets.

In my opinion, it really boils down to the type of America that an individual wants to live in. I want an America that takes care of its own WITHOUT so much government interference. I want an America that gives me the leg room, financially to invest in causes that I find worthy, so that I can better my own community in a way that's TANGIBLE for me.
 

Green Gaia

Veteran Member
dawny0826 said:
I don't care to force my religion into your life.

Conservative politicans do.
dawny0826 said:
because it's the conservative politician that goes up to bat for the middle class!

Not for me they don't. Tell me why I should support someone who thinks I should be a second-class citizen?

I struggle to make ends meet too. But volunteer time and give money as well. I know there people much worse off than I am and if they can be helped by programs funded by my tax dollars then I am all for that. I'd much prefer to support the poor than Bush's war.
 

doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
dawny0826 said:
Prove it!:D

Prove to me that the rich are the only ones who qualify for tax cuts. Show me statistics.

What are "normal" taxes?

Conservative icon Ben Stein (a former speechwriter for Nixon) says you're full of it:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/26/b...05b918674&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss
“There’s class warfare, all right,” Mr. Buffett said, “but it’s my class, the rich class, that’s making war, and we’re winning.”
This conversation keeps coming back to mind because, in the last couple of weeks, I have been on one television panel after another, talking about how questionable it is that the country is enjoying what economists call full employment while we are still running a federal budget deficit of roughly $434 billion for fiscal 2006 (not counting off-budget items like Social Security) and economists forecast that it will grow to $567 billion in fiscal 2010.
When I mentioned on these panels that we should consider all options for closing this gap — including raising taxes, particularly for the wealthiest people — I was met with several arguments by people who call themselves conservatives and free marketers.
One argument was that the mere suggestion constituted class warfare. I think Mr. Buffett answered that one.
Another argument was that raising taxes actually lowers total revenue, and that only cutting taxes stimulates federal revenue. This is supposedly proved by the history of tax receipts since my friend George W. Bush became president.
In fact, the federal government collected roughly $1.004 trillion in income taxes from individuals in fiscal 2000, the last full year of President Bill Clinton’s merry rule. It fell to a low of $794 billion in 2003 after Mr. Bush’s tax cuts (but not, you understand, because of them, his supporters like to say). Only by the end of fiscal 2006 did income tax revenue surpass the $1 trillion level again.
By this time, we Republicans had added a mere $2.7 trillion to the national debt. So much for tax cuts adding to revenue. To be fair, corporate profits taxes have increased greatly, as corporate profits have increased stupendously. This may be because of the cut in corporate tax rates. Anything is possible.
The third argument that kind, well-meaning people made in response to the idea of rolling back the tax cuts was this: “Don’t raise taxes. Cut spending.”
The sad fact is that spending rises every year, no matter what people want or say they want. Every president and every member of Congress promises to cut “needless” spending. But spending has risen every year since 1940 except for a few years after World War II and a brief period after the Korean War.
The imperatives for spending are built into the system, and now, with entitlements expanding rapidly, increased spending is locked in. Medicare, Social Security, interest on the debt — all are growing like mad, and how they will ever be stopped or slowed is beyond imagining. Gross interest on Treasury debt is approaching $350 billion a year. And none of this counts major deferred maintenance for the military.
The fourth argument in response to my suggestion was that “deficits don’t matter.”
There is something to this. One would think that big deficits would be highly inflationary, according to Keynesian economics. But we have modest inflation (except in New York City, where a martini at a good bar is now $22). On the other hand, we have all that interest to pay, soon roughly $7 billion a week, a lot of it to overseas owners of our debt. This, to me, seems to matter.
Besides, if it doesn’t matter, why bother to even discuss balancing the budget? Why have taxes at all? Why not just print money the way Weimar Germany did? Why not abolish taxes and add trillions to the deficit each year? Why don’t we all just drop acid, turn on, tune in and drop out of responsibility in the fiscal area? If deficits don’t matter, why not spend as much as we want, on anything we want?
The final argument is the one I really love. People ask how I can be a conservative and still want higher taxes. It makes my head spin, and I guess it shows how old I am. But I thought that conservatives were supposed to like balanced budgets. I thought it was the conservative position to not leave heavy indebtedness to our grandchildren. I thought it was the conservative view that there should be some balance between income and outflow. When did this change?
Oh, now, now, now I recall. It changed when we figured that we could cut taxes and generate so much revenue that we would balance the budget. But isn’t that what doctors call magical thinking? Haven’t the facts proved that this theory, though charming and beguiling, was wrong?
THIS brings me back to Mr. Buffett. If, in fact, it’s all just a giveaway to the rich masquerading as a new way of stimulating the economy and balancing the budget, please, Mr. Bush, let’s rethink it. I don’t like paying $7 billion a week in interest on the debt. I don’t like the idea that Mr. Buffett pays a lot less in tax as a percentage of his income than my housekeeper does or than I do.
Can we really say that we’re showing fiscal prudence? Are we doing our best? If not, why not? I don’t want class warfare from any direction, through the tax system or any other way.
 

NuGnostic

Member
dawny0826 said:
I had a hunch. :D

How is it fair to tax the crap out of the upper class for the benefit of everyone else? I don't think that's fair.
You obviously know little of capitalism,they tax you without representation.
The Democrat in office hurts the middle class citizen. That's who takes it in the gut. I'm taxed out of my rear, so that others can be supported via programs that the government makes available to those who "qualify". The rich are still rich. That 2% of America, who is truly, filthy rich...stays rich, regardless...but my family suffers in the name of BIG GOVERNMENT.
You are taxed because the rich are not. Not that I support taxes of any kind.
Sorry, but I don't think that's fair. It's not fair to me. It's not fair to my family. Corporate America may be given unfair breaks but corporate America also employs everyone else...the Middle Class folk as well as the poor.
Of course they employ people,they make it so you must find a job with them,they own most of the means of production,so you can work for them or any other business,start your own and have to fight very hard due to the increased power accumulations of capital bring or you can starve(or go on welfare.) that's the way the system works.

Corporate America ALSO contributes quite a bit to charitable causes
Perhaps they have a guilty conscience?
But the Democrat doesn't CARE at all about my family. I'm taxed unfairly for the benefit of THEIR programs which in my opinion, has an oppressive effect on many who utilize them.
You've been listening to Rush Limbaugh too much,you are taxed so much because over the last few decades the rich have been getting a lighter and lighter burden and somone has to pick up the slack.
Are you aware that over the last 25+ years that median real wages have stagnated or declined for most of the population and living standards are only kept up by increasing working hours.
Not that I care much about taming capitalism but it was the post war keynesian years where corporations were reigned in and social programs were a plenty that saw living standards of the general populations greatly rise and the creation of the vast middle class you are so proud to belong to.

If you lowered taxes ACROSS THE BOARD...which Republicans DO...you give everyone the opportunity to make the most out of their financial situation, in their income tax brackett. You give BOTH the Middle Class and the "RICH" the financial ability to GIVE to charitable organizations that in turn...give to those less fortunate. You give those with lower incomes the opportunity to maximize their dollar as they too are taxed less...in fact taxed less than the middle class as well as the "rich"...because they're in the LOWER income tax brackets.
But of the otherside lowering of state regulations and taxation etc tend to cause much greater inequality and hardships for the general popualtion even if the incomes of the rich do skyrocket. You might not have to give so much to charity.

In my opinion, it really boils down to the type of America that an individual wants to live in. I want an America that takes care of its own WITHOUT so much government interference. I want an America that gives me the leg room, financially to invest in causes that I find worthy, so that I can better my own community in a way that's TANGIBLE for me.
And some how the republicons are gonna let this happen?
Here's some handy statistics of the Reagan years so you can see what the republicons are really about.(not that the democrats are much better.)
http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/1THE_REAGAN_YEARs.htm
 
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