Who knows?

[Heyo]

If they exist they can be measured

If they are real, they can be measured.

 

[ChristineM]

If they are real, they can be measured.

Real stuff exists

 

[Trailblazer]

Thanks. Thought at least one thinks otherwise

I for one agree with @loverofhumanity.

 

[vulcanlogician]

Perhaps it's time to let go of the presumption that there is a right and a wrong way to perceive (understand) existence.

I'd like to think that I'm not so rigid a thinker.

But don't you agree that some things must be true or false?

Mind you, I'm not trying to lord the truth or falsity of a thing over anyone. I'm just trying to find out for myself. There are many ways to perceive reality. And not only that, many different valuable ways. I think we agree there.

But I do make the presumption that there is one reality that we are all referring to when we make claims. And I do tend to think some of these claims are accurate, while others are inaccurate.

Don't you?

 

[vulcanlogician]

Real stuff exists

I can get behind this one. But I don't think that just because something is real, it can be measured. There could be a plentitude of things that lie beyond the purview of empirical observation. And I don't just mean spooky or divine things. There could be purely natural phenomena that we simply cannot detect, no matter how advanced our instruments are.

 

[sun rise]

Real stuff exists

That gets pretty questionable when you get into weird physics. "solid" tables don't really exist because they are mostly space with atoms and electrons making up only a tiny percentage of the space. Go even further down the physics rabbit hole and you get physicists talking about whether anything exists. Quantum physics: Our study suggests objective reality doesn't exist

But in a paper recently published in Science Advances, we show that in the micro-world of atoms and particles that is governed by the strange rules of quantum mechanics, two different observers are entitled to their own facts. In other words, according to our best theory of the building blocks of nature itself, facts can actually be subjective.

 

[Trailblazer]

Without a clear definition of "god" (and "exists") the question can't be answered.

I do not have a definition of God but I have a conception of what God is that comes from my religion.

God in the Bahá'í Faith

 

[Vinayaka]

Guadapada appears to think otherwise in chapter 2 of the Mandukya Karika.

Sure, if anyone thinks you can see it logically, that's fine. I'm not into deep thinking personally. I'd rather go make a flower mala.

 

[ChristineM]

I can get behind this one. But I don't think that just because something is real, it can be measured. There could be a plentitude of things that lie beyond the purview of empirical observation. And I don't just mean spooky or divine things. There could be purely natural phenomena that we simply cannot detect, no matter how advanced our instruments are.

How advanced out instruments are yet.​

If it exist it must me measurable even if we are currently incapable of measuring it.

As an example I'll use dark matter, even though it cannot be seen or directly measured. It wasban assumption, a guess that accounted for missing mass. Now we still cannot measure it but we know it exist by it's interaction with other real phenomena

 

[Trailblazer]

Reality is what can be measured by scientific instruments, independently and repeatedly.

That is true, but it only applies to physical reality, not spiritual reality.
Just because spiritual reality cannot be seen or measured, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Reality:

1. the world or the state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of them.
2. the state or quality of having existence or substance.

reality means - Google Search

 

[ChristineM]

That gets pretty questionable when you get into weird physics. "solid" tables don't really exist because they are mostly space with atoms and electrons making up only a tiny percentage of the space. Go even further down the physics rabbit hole and you get physicists talking about whether anything exists. Quantum physics: Our study suggests objective reality doesn't exist

But in a paper recently published in Science Advances, we show that in the micro-world of atoms and particles that is governed by the strange rules of quantum mechanics, two different observers are entitled to their own facts. In other words, according to our best theory of the building blocks of nature itself, facts can actually be subjective.

Some scientist have ideas to explain their personal hobby horse.

Atoms, quanum particles exits, can be and are measured, and observed. Just because there is a lot of space between atoms does not mean whatever it is doesn't exist.

 

[Trailblazer]

If they are real, they can be measured.

Real : actually existing as a thing or occurring in fact; not imagined or supposed.

Spiritual : relating to or affecting the human spirit or soul as opposed to material or physical things.

The issue at hand here is that atheists believe that only material or physical things are real and that spiritual things are imaginary, but there is no reason to think that things affecting the human spirit or soul are not real, and if they have an effect they have to be real, even if we cannot see them and prove they exist.

Is love real? Can you see love and measure it?

Real: actually existing as a thing or occurring in fact; not imagined or supposed.
real means - Google Search

Imagined: (of something unreal or untrue) believed to exist or be so.
imagined means - Google Search

 

[vulcanlogician]

If it exist it must me measurable even if we are currently incapable of measuring it.

As an example I'll use dark matter, even though it cannot be seen or directly measured. It wasban assumption, a guess that accounted for missing mass. Now we still cannot measure it but we know it exist by it's interaction with other real phenomena

But we CAN measure dark matter. When we observe the movement of stars in galaxies we expect it to transpire in a certain way. But given our visible observations, we must infer that these galaxies are more massive than they appear. Because stars do NOT move in a way we would expect given the mass we see. That's empirical data which supports the conclusion that dark matter exists.

Our measurements (indirectly) detect dark matter. That's how we know it exists in the first place.

 

[ChristineM]

Real : actually existing as a thing or occurring in fact; not imagined or supposed.

Spiritual : relating to or affecting the human spirit or soul as opposed to material or physical things.

The issue at hand here is that atheists believe that only material or physical things are real and that spiritual things are imaginary, but there is no reason to think that things affecting the human spirit or soul are not real, and if they have an effect they have to be real, even if we cannot see them and prove they exist.

Is love real? Can you see love and measure it?

Real: actually existing as a thing or occurring in fact; not imagined or supposed.
real means - Google Search

Imagined: (of something unreal or untrue) believed to exist or be so.
imagined means - Google Search

Neuroscience tell us the electrochemical reaction that gives rise to thought is real, measurable. The thought itself is not

 

[ChristineM]

But we CAN measure dark matter. When we observe the movement of stars in galaxies we expect it to transpire in a certain way. But given our visible observations, we must infer that these galaxies are more massive than they appear. Because stars do NOT move in a way we would expect given the mass we see. That's empirical data which supports the conclusion that dark matter exists.

Our measurements (indirectly) detect dark matter. That's how we know it exists in the first place.

Dark matter cannot be directly measured, only its effect on other objects can be measured. This is only a fairly recent discovery, prior to that it was only assume to exist

 

[vulcanlogician]

Dark matter cannot be directly measured, only its effect on other objects can be measured. This is only a fairly recent discovery, prior to that it was only assume to exist

Indirect measurement still counts as empirical verification.

 

[Trailblazer]

So how about you?
Are you religious or not?
And can you provide the main reasons for your belief/unbelief in god(s)

I am not here to pick and pull apart your reasons, i am genuinely interested in why you believe what you believe.

The only reason I believe what I believe is because of the Baha'i Faith.
The Baha'i Faith makes sense to me and the core teaching of the religion, Progressive Revelation, make sense to me. The soul and the afterlife also makes sense to me. The God we believe in makes sense to me, although I have some issues with 'some' of the alleged attributes of God as revealed by Baha'u'llah. More specifically, I question the belief that God is all-loving, because it does not make sense to me. If God is all-loving He sure has a strange way of showing it. No, there is no evidence that proves that God is all-loving, that is based solely upon scriptures.

If there was one reason not to believe in God it would be the suffering in this world. I do not expect God to rescue people from suffering because it makes no sense for God to rescue people from what He created in the first place. God created a world that is a Storehouse of Suffering. How believers can try to pretend that God has no culpability in that suffering that He built into the world and which is inescapable, is beyond me. It is drop dead illogical so I have to write it off as a refusal to relinquish their faith, and they will come up with all kinds of rationalizations in order to hang onto their belief that God is all-loving.

However, God does not have to be loving in order to exist, so that is not a reason to abdicate belief in God. God only has to be omnipotent and omniscient in my view.

 

[Trailblazer]

Neuroscience tell us the electrochemical reaction that gives rise to thought is real, measurable. The thought itself is not

So thought does not exist?

 

[ChristineM]

So thought does not exist?

Its imaginary, not measurable. The result of real reaction but not in itself real

 

[Heyo]

Real stuff exists

Yes, but unreal stuff also exists. Spiderman exists in the MCU.
Iow, reality is a subset of existence.