Who is this Satan creature?

[Hevenly Heathen]

Through my life I have taken part in many debates and discussions about religion and good/evil, and due to my surroundings, most of these have been with Christians who point out that Satan is evil, and has no place with God.
I am not Christian, but I have yet to have anyone accurately explain Satan. I have read stories and been told many stories about Satan. He is the root of all evil. He is the source of suffering and wrong in the world. He is Evil while God is Good.
If, on the assumption of God in a religious context, God created all, then did not Satan and evil come from God?
I would appreciate any well thought responses as well as speculation as to your own thoughts of where evil originates.
I do not ask this in an attempt to debase, I am merely seeking understanding.

 

[Baydwin]

Satan is an angel of the Jewish G-d whos purpose is to test man's obediance to and faith in G-d. Well, that's the original version of the myth anyway.

 

[Demonic Kitten]

When I think of Satan I see an entity (whether real or imagined) who takes the blame for every evil thing that has happened or that will ever happened. When I think of God I see an entity (whether real or imagined) who takes credit for every good think that happened or that will ever happened. (Keep in mind that this what I percieve the Christian God and Satan to be.)

IMO you can't have good without evil. Balance is an important part of my belief system, in fact it might be the only thing I believe in (which I find quite ironic and a bit amusing). In all reality Good can not survive without Evil. Besides what deems things Good or Evil? Is it God or is it man? Man created Satan as a way to remove themselves from any evil that they have done. All they had to do was say "Satan made me do it" and they are excused. Personally, I take responibility for the things that I have done. I do not need entities to take the blame and/or credit for things I have done. I am my own person.

As to were evil come from...a quote from a game comes to mind...
Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind.
Yoshiharu Gotanda, Edward D. Morrison, Tales of Phantasia

 

[Man of Faith]

According to the Bible, and my belief, Satan was a Cherub which is a form of an Angel, and Satan was the highest angel God made, perfect in all ways, not evil, the most intelligent and beautiful angel. For some reason Satan decided to try to make himself over God, to make his place above God and was cast out of Heaven with a third of the angels that followed him. He landed with a thud and caused mankind to fall with temptation. He told man he could be like God.

Now him and his angels who are now called demons roam the earth fighting God at every step. They posses and influence mankind to create religions, kill each other and do all manner of evil things because they hate God and humans for being in the image of God. They blasphemy God in all putrid manner of speech and thought, cursing God with every thought. But some demons just want to hang out and hide in houses and buildings and such haunting them.

 

[Baydwin]

According to the Bible, and my belief, Satan was a Cherub which is a form of an Angel, and Satan was the highest angel God made, perfect in all ways, not evil, the most intelligent and beautiful angel.

That's strange, cherubim were the grunt workers, they're the ones that guard the gate of the garden. You'd think Satan would have been a Seraphim.

 

[Erebus]

That's strange, cherubim were the grunt workers, they're the ones that guard the gate of the garden. You's think Satan would have been a Seraphim.

I was under the impression that Satan was a Seraph as well. Having said that, Raziel is considered a Cherub and he's supposed to be pretty high ranking.

 

[Baydwin]

I was under the impression that Satan was a Seraph as well. Having said that, Raziel is considered a Cherub and he's supposed to be pretty high ranking.

Never heard of that one.

 

[Man of Faith]

That's strange, cherubim were the grunt workers, they're the ones that guard the gate of the garden. You's think Satan would have been a Seraphim.

That is interesting but it is backed up by scripture. Ezekiel 28:14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones.

 

[Baydwin]

That is interesting but it is backed up by scripture. Ezekiel 28:14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones.

Hmm, that was a lament concerning the King of Tyre, and by that effect the citystate of Tyre as a whole (Kings and their cities being so intimately associated in ancient times). Nothing to do with Satan.

 

[Man of Faith]

Hmm, that was a lament concerning the King of Tyre, and by that effect the citystate of Tyre as a whole (Kings and their cities being so intimately associated in ancient times). Nothing to do with Satan.

What we have is a hermeneutic principle sometimes referred to as the principle of double fulfillment or double reference. The King of Tyre was not in the Garden of Eden, or an angelic guardian so it is referring to Satan. We see that hermeneutic principle in other areas of the Bible as outlined below.



Simply put, a single passage 'applying primarily to a person or event near at hand' can also have another person in mind. Examples of this can be seen with passages used of Christ.

1. Hosea 11:1 "When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son." The immediate context of the passage refers to Israel. But Matthew 2:14 applies this passage to Christ, " . . . out of Egypt I called my son." The principle of double reference would state that Israel was a son, nationally, but the greater "Son" was Christ.
2. Deuteronomy 18:15 "The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own brothers. You must listen to him." The immediate context refers to Joshua. But Acts 3:22,23 applies this to Christ. Unless the Scriptures made this connection we would not even consider this verse as being applied in this fashion. The principle of double reference would state that Joshua was a prophet that must be listened too, but the greater prophet was Christ, and there was a greater urgency to listen to Him.

Isaiah 14 & Ezekiel 28

 

[Baydwin]

That seems to be a version of reading things into the text that aren't there, or seeing what you want to see, from my perspective anyway. Fair enough if that's what you want to believe and everything, but I can't think of a way of taking the discussion further from such a position.

 

[Riverwolf]

Through my life I have taken part in many debates and discussions about religion and good/evil, and due to my surroundings, most of these have been with Christians who point out that Satan is evil, and has no place with God.
I am not Christian, but I have yet to have anyone accurately explain Satan. I have read stories and been told many stories about Satan. He is the root of all evil. He is the source of suffering and wrong in the world. He is Evil while God is Good.
If, on the assumption of God in a religious context, God created all, then did not Satan and evil come from God?
I would appreciate any well thought responses as well as speculation as to your own thoughts of where evil originates.
I do not ask this in an attempt to debase, I am merely seeking understanding.

According to the book of Isaiah, God is, indeed, the originator of evil.

Evil is used to define good, just as good is used to define evil. Both, though opposites, complement each other, and despite Western thought, neither can exist without the other. To get rid of evil, good must be gotten rid of, as well.

The modern character of Satan provides a good antithesis of God, having all the qualities that the mind defines as evil. (Lies, murder, etc.) Without such a character, the good of God cannot be easily seen.

 

[Riverwolf]

According to the Bible, and my belief, Satan was a Cherub which is a form of an Angel, and Satan was the highest angel God made, perfect in all ways, not evil, the most intelligent and beautiful angel. For some reason Satan decided to try to make himself over God, to make his place above God and was cast out of Heaven with a third of the angels that followed him. He landed with a thud and caused mankind to fall with temptation. He told man he could be like God.

Um... where in the Bible is this story?

Now him and his angels who are now called demons roam the earth fighting God at every step. They posses and influence mankind to create religions, kill each other and do all manner of evil things because they hate God and humans for being in the image of God. They blasphemy God in all putrid manner of speech and thought, cursing God with every thought. But some demons just want to hang out and hide in houses and buildings and such haunting them.

This seems more the doctrine of Paradise Lost than the Bible.

 

[Hevenly Heathen]

All great posts, thank all of you for your opinions. The story I have heard: God had a problem with man, and asked two of his angels what to do. Lucifer said not to give them free will, as they would never be able to return to God. Jesus said to give them free will. God went with Jesus' plan. Lucifer became angry and started the war, and bing bang boom: cast out with his hordes and thus Satan is created.
This always raised questions in my mind about Jesus' relationship to Lucifer: were they brothers? If God created all, including Lucifer and Jesus (who is traditionally the only begotten son of God), why create dissent?
Riverwolf, I like your point of evil defining good and vice versa, but why was there a need to define them? This certainly solidifies the need for Satan, but do we need to know what is good and what is evil?

 

[zenzero]

Friend HH,

Who is this Satan creature?

He is none other than your very own *MIND*.
The mind only teaches humans to think and as soon as thinking starts *dualities* starts and that ensures that he remains in Office.

Love & rgds

 

[Jeremiah]

Who is this Satan creature?

Satan is a horny little goat guy that plays his pipes and pulls pranks on shepherds. He is, in reality, harmless and is only written and portrayed as some big bad scary monster because the holy propaganda machine needs a scapegoat.

 

[Tiapan]

Sounds like a good script for a novel, perhaps we could call it the "Lord of the Lord rings". But seriously cherabins, sepharins, saccarides, sephars, and sedatives. Are you sure they weren't Nazguls? Can we get like a flow diagram of these angel blokes. And I thought there were only 3 gods (Trinity) and thirty commandments (2xExodus 1xLeviticus) .... jeez it gets confusing.

Cheers

 

[Riverwolf]

All great posts, thank all of you for your opinions. The story I have heard: God had a problem with man, and asked two of his angels what to do. Lucifer said not to give them free will, as they would never be able to return to God. Jesus said to give them free will. God went with Jesus' plan. Lucifer became angry and started the war, and bing bang boom: cast out with his hordes and thus Satan is created.
This always raised questions in my mind about Jesus' relationship to Lucifer: were they brothers? If God created all, including Lucifer and Jesus (who is traditionally the only begotten son of God), why create dissent?

That's not the traditional story; I've never heard that version before. The traditional Christian version is recounted in the poetic classic and masterpiece, Paradise Lost.

God created the angels first, before man. When God created man, he told the angels to bow before them. Satan refused, and started the war with God, as he felt that he could match, if not best, God. He could not, and therefore, with his minions, was cast into a Void. As revenge, he then proceeded to screw up all of creation as best he could.

Riverwolf, I like your point of evil defining good and vice versa, but why was there a need to define them? This certainly solidifies the need for Satan, but do we need to know what is good and what is evil?

That is a very good question. From a psychological perspective, the two opposites are engraved in the human psyche. From an ethical perspective, we need to know what the two extremes are if we are to strive for good. However, from a religious perspective, I'm not sure I can answer that.

I think, according to the traditional story of Adam and Eve, the reason we do know what is good and what is evil is because the two ate from the fruit of such knowledge; in other words, we weren't supposed to know of the two opposites. (Going by the text alone.)

 

[Zardoz]

Satan is an angel of the Jewish G-d whos purpose is to test man's obediance to and faith in G-d. Well, that's the original version of the myth anyway.

Yep, that pretty much the story. No 'fall' just a really unpleasant task. A very necessary task, however, or else we wouldn't have free will. Need choices for free will to have any real value.

 

[PurpleM]

He is the evil one, right?