Ebionite
Well-Known Member
Bollocks.
Then I cut asunder mine other staff, [even] Bands, that I might break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.
Zechariah 11:14
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
WHO IS GOD'S TRUE ISRAEL IN THE NEW COVENANT?
- Thread starter 3rdAngel
- Start date
Then I cut asunder mine other staff, [even] Bands, that I might break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.
Zechariah 11:14
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
No, they don't. The Tanak repudiates Paul and his doctrine.
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
"Bollocks" (as you say). Please forgive me but I do not believe you.
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
Whether you believe me or not is unimportant. The facts are on my side.
Behold, his soul [which] is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.
Yea also, because he transgresseth by wine, [he is] a proud man, neither keepeth at home, who enlargeth his desire as hell, and [is] as death, and cannot be satisfied, but gathereth unto him all nations, and heapeth unto him all people:
Shall not all these take up a parable against him, and a taunting proverb against him, and say, Woe to him that increaseth [that which is] not his! how long? and to him that ladeth himself with thick clay!
Habakkuk 2:4-6
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Romans 1:17
communion wine:
For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.
1 Corinthians 11:26
As the truth of Christ is in me, no man shall stop me of this boasting in the regions of Achaia.
2 Corinthians 11:10
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
Well that is not true. You have posted and stated no facts accept protested your disagreement with the scriptures shared with you, which are Gods Words not mine demonstrating your unbelief in what Gods Word says. So your argument is with God not me.
So what scripture did you actually post here that supports anything you have said? Nothing. For me only Gods Word is true and we should believe and follow them. You post you and then post scripture that has nothing to do with any claims you make. Please forgive me but this is the reason why I do not believe you. You post you arguing against the scriptures which are Gods Word that we are to believe and follow. (Romans 3:4; Acts 5:29; John 10:26-27; John 3:36; 1 John 2:3-4; Matthew 7:21-23)
Take care.
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
The text of Habakukk 2:46 of is a fact. What you think "God's Word" is isn't relevant.
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
So that is a no then. You posted no scripture that supports anything you have said or claim here. For me, all scripture is the standard of what is true and what is not true. Lets be honest please, Habakkuk 2:4-6 says "4, Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith. 5, Yes also, because he transgresses by wine, he is a proud man, neither keeps at home, who enlarges his desire as hell, and is as death, and cannot be satisfied, but gathers to him all nations, and heaps to him all people: 6, Shall not all these take up a parable against him, and a taunting proverb against him, and say, Woe to him that increases that which is not his! how long? and to him that lades himself with thick clay!" How does this scripture or any of the other scripture support anything you have posted here? It doesn't. As posted earlier, you post you and then post random scripture that have nothing to do with any claims you make. Again, please forgive me but this is the reason why I do not believe you. You post you arguing against the scriptures which are Gods Word that we are to believe and follow. (Romans 3:4; Acts 5:29; John 10:26-27; John 3:36; 1 John 2:3-4; Matthew 7:21-23)
Take Care.
Last edited:
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
Clearly reading comprehension is not your strong suit.
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
Well that is not true. You are deflecting. I have addressed everything you have said while you on the other hand are unable to respond to the questions asked of you to prove your claims here and elsewhere. Does that not concern you? It should.
Last edited:
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
It's true because facts are things that can be verified by the public, as is the case for well known texts like the Bible.
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
You are a funny one. What facts did you provide despite me asking you many times now? None.
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
You're in denial. It goes back to the disconnection from reality that circular reasoning brings.
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
Nonsense. My denial is only against your words that disagree with Gods Word (scripture). I asked you for evidence for your claims many time now that Paul is a false teacher and you have provided nothing. Let me ask you again, what facts did you provide despite me asking you many times now that proves the writings of Paul in the new testament are not Gods Word? None. I posted earlier, does this not worry you? It should because it proves what you post is not true and that you are deflecting and the only circular reasoning being made here are your claims you are making about the writings of Paul in the new testament scriptures because you are making statements and claims you are unable to prove and never proven here.
Take Care.
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
Like I said before, your scripture is simply doctrine that you like. How would you refute the assertion that the Quran is scripture?
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
Your response here..
Actually no. We are to believe and follow all scripture not some of it like you are trying to teach. Scripture is Gods Word, that is inspired and God breathed by Gods Spirit and a free gift for all mankind (2 Timothy 3:16). So I guess that is a no again. You have no response to the post you are quoting from again that is asking you for proof to your earlier claims. Its ok this only proves what I have been saying to you all along so we will agree to disagree. It is very easy to refute Islam. This religion claims their prophet Mohammad has lineage to Abraham through Hagar and Ishmael. The problem is for Islam is that God never made His covenant promise through Ishmael but through Abraham, Sarah and Isaac. This is the true lineage of Gods covenant promise with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who wrestled with God for His sin and was an overcomer with God who named Jacob Israel who had 12 sons (12 tribes of Israel). This is the birth of Israel who was born in the flesh of the seed of Abraham. This lead to Gods promise of the Messiah in Jesus and Gods new covenant promise of forgiveness of sins through faith in Gods Christ and the birth of Gods true Israel no longer born of the flesh of the seed of Abraham but born of the Spirit through faith in Gods Word. Islam is a false teaching because God never made His covenant promise through Ishmael but through Abraham's true wife Sarah and Isaac. Islam does not come from the right lineage according to the Torah.
Lets look at the scripture detail in the torah…
GENESIS 17:1-20
- [1] WHEN ABRAM WAS 99 YEARS OLD, the Lord appeared to him again and said, “I AM GOD ALL-POWERFUL. If you obey me and always do right, [2] I will keep my solemn promise to you and give you more descendants than can be counted.” [3] ABRAM BOWED WITH HIS FACE TO THE GROUND, AND GOD SAID:
- [4-5] I PROMISE THAT YOU WILL BE THE FATHER OF MANY NATIONS. SO NOW I'M CHANGING YOUR NAME FROM ABRAM TO ABRAHAM. [6] I will give you a lot of descendants, and they will become great nations. SOME OF THEM WILL EVEN BE KINGS.
- [7] I WILL ALWAYS KEEP THE PROMISE I HAVE MADE TO YOU AND YOUR DESCENDANTS, BECAUSE I AM YOUR GOD AND THEIR GOD. [8] I will give you and them the land in which you are now a foreigner. I WILL GIVE THE WHOLE LAND OF CANAAN TO YOUR FAMILY FOREVER, AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD.
- [9] Abraham, you and all future members of your family must promise to obey me. [10-11] As the sign that you are keeping this promise, YOU MUST CIRCUMCISE EVERY MAN AND BOY IN YOUR FAMILY. [12-13] FROM NOW ON, YOUR FAMILY MUST CIRCUMCISE EVERY BABY BOY WHEN HE IS EIGHT DAYS OLD. You must even circumcise any man or boy you have as a slave, both those born in your homes and those you buy from foreigners. THIS WILL BE A SIGN THAT MY PROMISE TO YOU WILL LAST FOREVER. [14] Any man who isn't circumcised hasn't kept his part of the promise and cannot be one of my people.
- [15] ABRAHAM, FROM NOW ON YOUR WIFE'S NAME WILL BE SARAH INSTEAD OF SARAI. 16 I will bless her, and you will have a son by her. SHE WILL BECOME THE MOTHER OF NATIONS, AND SOME OF HER DESCENDANTS WILL EVEN BE KINGS.
- [17] ABRAHAM BOWED WITH HIS FACE TO THE GROUND AND THOUGHT, “I AM ALMOST 100 YEARS OLD. HOW CAN I BECOME A FATHER? AND SARAH IS 90. HOW CAN SHE HAVE A CHILD?” SO HE STARTED LAUGHING. 18 THEN HE ASKED GOD, “WHY NOT LET ISHMAEL INHERIT WHAT YOU HAVE PROMISED ME?”
- [19] BUT GOD ANSWERED: NO! YOU AND SARAH WILL HAVE A SON. HIS NAME WILL BE ISAAC,[C] AND I WILL MAKE AN EVERLASTING PROMISE TO HIM AND HIS DESCENDANTS.
- [20] HOWEVER, I HAVE HEARD WHAT YOU ASKED ME TO DO FOR ISHMAEL, AND SO I WILL ALSO BLESS HIM WITH MANY DESCENDANTS. HE WILL BE THE FATHER OF TWELVE PRINCES, AND I WILL MAKE HIS FAMILY A GREAT NATION.
- 21 BUT YOUR SON ISAAC WILL BE BORN ABOUT THIS TIME NEXT YEAR, AND THE PROMISE I AM MAKING TO YOU AND YOUR FAMILY WILL BE FOR HIM AND HIS DESCENDANTS FOREVER.
- God comes to Abram at 99 years old and reveals himself to Abraham – Genesis 17:1-3
- God makes a promise to Abram and changes Abram name to Abraham saying he will become a great nation and Kings will come from him – Genesis 17:4-5
- God’s promise to Him and His decendence including giving him Caanan – Genesis 17:7-8
- God gives Abraham the sign of circumcision as a sign forever – Genesis 17:9-14
- God changes Sarai name to Sarah saying she will become the mother of nations, and Kings will come from here. This text here is proving that Gods’ promise here is through Abraham, and his wife Sarah and their son Isaac not to Hagar and Ishmael. – Genesis 17:15-16
- Abraham says to God “I am old and near 100 and my wife Sarah is 90 how can she have a child and start laughing. Then he asked God, “why not let ishmael inherit what you have promised me?” – Genesis 17: 17-18
- God says NO! Did you catch this? God said NO! His promise will be through Abraham and his wife Sarah not Ishameal and Gods’ promise would be through ISAAC that who will be the name of Abraham and Sarahs child – Genesis 17: 19
- Then God says however I have heard what you have asked me of Ishmael I will make of him a great nation and PRINCES (not Kings) shall come from him BUT YOUR SON ISAAC WILL BE BORN ABOUT THIS TIME NEXT YEAR, AND THE PROMISE I AM MAKING TO YOU AND YOUR FAMILY WILL BE FOR HIM AND HIS DESCENDANTS FOREVER – Genesis 17:20
Take Care.
Last edited:
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
You don't get to define what scripture is.
The primary issue here is your circular reasoning which is built on Pauline doctrine. If you can show that earlier claims are relevant then I'll address that.
There wasn't just a single covenant promise.
In the same day YHWH made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites,
And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims,
And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girga****es, and the Jebusites.
Genesis 15:18-21
If scripture is defined by covenant then the basis of your position is untenable because of Paul's slander of Moses, who was instrumental is bringing the covenant of Mt Sinai to the twelve tribes.
And not as Moses, [which] put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
2 Corinthians 3:13
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
Actually that is not true at all. We all have to decide what is Gods Word to know God and His Word. Our salvation depends on it (John 3:36; Ephesians 2:8-9; compare Romans 10:17 and John 17:17). All I did is tell you what Gods Word defines as scripture in (2 Timothy 3:16). All you did is tell me you do not believe God and His Word.
We already demonstrated in previous posts that you are deflecting here and that it is your problem is circular reasoning. You make statements and claims that scripture from the new testament written by Paul is not scriptures but when asked to prove these claims you are unable to do so. This is evidence that you are the one that has problems with circular reasoning.
No one said there was only a single covenant promise. If no one said there was a single covenant promise. If I have never said to you that there is a single covenant promise or that I believe that there was a single covenant promise why pretend that I did and this is what I believe. If you are not sure about what I believe why not just ask rather than make assumptions and write posts no one is talking about?
Where does it say in the bible that scripture is defined by covenant? It doesn't. You are making that up. Think your argument through. Are you now saying that all the writings of the prophets, Jesus and the Apostles and most of the bible are not scripture? This alone should tell you what you believe is unbiblical and should be a warning to you. According to the torah the Hebrew or Aramaic meaning of scriptures (Danial 10:21) H3791. kethab; כְּתָב; means something written with devine authority. In the Greek, the word scirpture G1124; γραφή (e.g. John 7:38) means, holy writing and further defined in 2 Timothy 3:16 where it is wrtitten that all scripture is given by divine inspiration through Gods Spirit to be given to Gods people to believe and obey or to tell us what is to come. We therefore cannot know God if we do not know His Word. It seems you do not know God or His Word (scripture) who you choose to not believe.
Random scripture again that does not support anything you have said here.
Take care.
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
It's true because defining something is not the same thing as interpreting something that already exists.
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
Your post makes absolutely no sense now. It was you that made the claim earlier that scripture is defined by covenant. That is what you said not me. Where does it say in the bible that scripture is defined by covenant? It doesn't. You are making that up.
Now think your arguments through for a moment. How do we know something already exists if not through the written Word of God defined in the Hebrew, Greek and in the scriptures as the inspired recorded written Word of God? This is why it is written in the scriptures the just shall live by faith (Habakkuk 2:4 compare Romans 1:17).
Think your argument through further. You ignored my last post to you. Are you now saying that all the writings of the prophets of the old testament scriptures, Jesus and the Apostles and most of the bible are not scripture? This alone should tell you what you believe is unbiblical and should be a red flag and a warning to you that what you believe is not supported in the old testament or the new.
According to the torah the Hebrew or Aramaic meaning of scriptures (Danial 10:21) H3791. kethab; כְּתָב; means something written with divine authority. In the Greek, the word scripture G1124; γραφή (e.g. John 7:38) means, holy writing and further defined in 2 Timothy 3:16 where it is written that all scripture is given by divine inspiration through Gods Spirit to be given to Gods people to believe and obey or to tell us what is to come. According to these same scriptures, we cannot know God if we do not know or through faith believe His Word. If you do not believe that the scriptures are Gods Word then your unbelief testifies against you that you do not know God or His Word (scripture).
According to the scriptures, our salvation depends on our faith in Gods Word defined as scripture and Gods recorded written Word that we are to believe and obey (John 3:36; Ephesians 2:8-9; compare Romans 10:17 and John 17:17). It was you that made the claim that scripture is defined by covenant. All I did is tell you that is not true and you have no scripture to support this idea and provided further scripture (2 Timothy 3:16) and also included the Hebrew and Greek definitions of scripture which is in agreement with 2 Timothy 3:16. All you did is respond and tell me you do not believe God and His Word which is unbelief and sin according to Romans 14:23 and John 3:36.
Take Care.
Last edited:
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
If you can't cope with the fact that definitions and interpretations are different things then I can't help you.