Who HAD Free Will ?

[dan p]

Hi to all , and it seems that everyone believes in Free Will !!

Going to the bathroom , or to work , and all the things we do every day is considered Free Will by all ?

But I see only three , that had Free Will !!

#1 , Lucifer , when SIN was found in him and the angels that followed him from heaven !!

#2 , Then Eve and Adam in the Garden when they also sinned !!

And that is all , that had free will !!

Then rest of us , are born with a sin nature as the apple does not fall far from the tree !!

dan p

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Hi to all , and it seems that everyone believes in Free Will !!

Going to the bathroom , or to work , and all the things we do every day is considered Free Will by all ?

But I see only three , that had Free Will !!

#1 , Lucifer , when SIN was found in him and the angels that followed him from heaven !!

#2 , Then Eve and Adam in the Garden when they also sinned !!

And that is all , that had free will !!

Then rest of us , are born with a sin nature as the apple does not fall far from the tree !!

dan p

So... you disagree with the main premises of one response to the problem of evil: that if God intervened to prevent suffering, then he would be undermining our free will. If we don't have free will in the first place, then this reasoning doesn't work.

In that case, how do you respond to the problem of evil? Why does God allow suffering in the world?

 

[9Westy9]

Hi to all , and it seems that everyone believes in Free Will !!

Mostly because there are a few different definitions to go by

 

[Skwim]

Hi to all , and it seems that everyone believes in Free Will !!

Your right. it just seems that way.

Going to the bathroom , or to work , and all the things we do every day is considered Free Will by all ?

Nope.

But I see only three , that had Free Will !!

#1 , Lucifer , when SIN was found in him and the angels that followed him from heaven !!

#2 , Then Eve and Adam in the Garden when they also sinned !!

And that is all , that had free will !!

That's three more than I have listed.

Then rest of us , are born with a sin nature as the apple does not fall far from the tree !!

How does this relate to having free will or not?

 

[dan p]

Your right. it just seems that way.

Nope.

That's three more than I have listed.

How does this relate to having free will or not?

Hi , and I am specially , thinking of how it relates to salvation !!

First to the Jews and how they could be saved ??

And how it relates to salvation to Gentiles !!

There is always that agruement , of " whosoever will " ??

Then , of course , Election !!

And does God violate our Will ??

Try , Eph 2:8 ?

Where is our Free Will , in that verses ??

dan p

 

[Green Kepi]

Where do you base your opinion that Satan was once perfect and evil was "found" in him? I once was taught this; however, I no longer believe this falsification....

 

[dan p]

Where do you base your opinion that Satan was once perfect and evil was "found" in him? I once was taught this; however, I no longer believe this falsification....

Hi , and Ezek 28:15 says , Thou was Perfect in thy ways from the day that thou was Created , till Iniquity was found in thee .

Have you ever read this verse ?

dan p

 

[Gjallarhorn]

Hi , and Ezek 28:15 says , Thou was Perfect in thy ways from the day that thou was Created , till Iniquity was found in thee .

Have you ever read this verse ?

dan p

Metaphor referring to the king of Tyre.

 

[Green Kepi]

Hi , and Ezek 28:15 says , Thou was Perfect in thy ways from the day that thou was Created , till Iniquity was found in thee .

Have you ever read this verse ?

dan p

Oh, yeah...as Gjallarhorn just stated...this is a prophecy against the King of Tyre. He was either Ithobal or Ethbaal III. In Chapter 26 & 27 Ezekiel's prophecy of the destruction of Tyre is recorded. The remainder of Chapter 28 is a prophecy directed against Sidon and the future restoration of Israel.

If this is talking about Satan, why is he called "a man" in verses 2 & 9? Verse 12 even says it is talking about the King of Tyrus of Tyre.

 

[dan p]

Oh, yeah...as Gjallarhorn just stated...this is a prophecy against the King of Tyre. He was either Ithobal or Ethbaal III. In Chapter 26 & 27 Ezekiel's prophecy of the destruction of Tyre is recorded. The remainder of Chapter 28 is a prophecy directed against Sidon and the future restoration of Israel.

If this is talking about Satan, why is he called "a man" in verses 2 & 9? Verse 12 even says it is talking about the King of Tyrus of Tyre.

Hi , and tthe whole context is talking about man and a created angel in verse 28:9 and in verse 15-19 , and in Isa 14:16 , Lucifer is also called a man , dan p

 

[Gjallarhorn]

Hi , and tthe whole context is talking about man and a created angel in verse 28:9 and in verse 15-19 , and in Isa 14:16 , Lucifer is also called a man , dan p

No, a man is also called Lucifer, due to a mistranslation and misinterpretation of the Vulgate Bible.

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

No, a man is also called Lucifer, due to a mistranslation and misinterpretation of the Vulgate Bible.

Mistranslation, not so much. Misinterpretation? Absolutely.

Lucifer became Satan when Jerome translated the Hebrew helel into the latin equivalent (the morning star, Lucifer "bearer of light). In the Jewish scriptures, satan is more or less an agent of YHWH, but the/an adversary of humanity. Most of the modern conception of Lucifer's fall from heaven comes from Milton's Paradise Lost.

The title hasatan in Hebrew means "adversary," but
1) The name/word Jerome translated as Lucifer wasn't satan and
2) Helel has nothing to do with satan.

Moreoever, the "adversary" of the OT was simply one of several figures used to describe the suffering of YHWH's people. The more their suffering was due to their errors or the work of lesser servants of YHWH, the less it was YHWH himself. But there was no "rebellion" in the Old Testament. The idea of a single entity responsible for evil emerged later, likely because of interaction with other cultures whose cosmology was dualistic. Even in the NT, the notion of satan isn't fully evolved and neither is the notion of a war in heaven and the devil as a fallen angel. Again, most of the modern conception of Lucifer is due to later works, particularly Milton's Paradise Lost but also earlier works, from so-called gnostic texts to Dante.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

Mistranslation, not so much. Misinterpretation? Absolutely.

Mistranslation in that it wasn't translated. They left Lucifer untranslated as they felt it was a name.

 

[Green Kepi]

Hi , and tthe whole context is talking about man and a created angel in verse 28:9 and in verse 15-19 , and in Isa 14:16 , Lucifer is also called a man , dan p

Verse 15...means the day that King was born/made king. Verse 14 - is the Hebrew word "bara" which means prepared, formed, created. The same word is used for the creation of "people" (Psa 102:18) & the Ammonites(Ezek 21:30).

Isaiah 14:12 - "Lucifer or Morning Star" refers to the King of Babylon and in Revelations 22:16 the only other person that is referred to in that way is Jesus.

So...if it means Lucifer or Morning/Day Star is Satan in Isaiah...then does this in Revelations mean that the Devil is Jesus? No way. Jesus is the true "Lucifer"...remember morning star, shining one, Light bearer...

Wouldn't most Christians have a "fit" if I called Jesus "Lucifer" in front of them!?

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

They left Lucifer untranslated as they felt it was a name.

I'm not sure I follow. How does translating the Hebrew helel into the latin lucifer not involve translation?

 

[Gjallarhorn]

I'm not sure I follow. How does translating the Hebrew helel into the latin lucifer not involve translation?

That's only the first step. It's the lack of translation from lucifer to anything else that caused an issue.

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

That's only the first step. It's the lack of translation from lucifer to anything else that caused an issue.

Ah. Well that I think is true enough. I guess I was confused because you said "mistranslation of the vulgate." I thought you meant that the vulgate involved a mistranslation, or that the rendering into English did. But I suppose in some cases (this being one perhaps) not translating a term could be considered a mistranslation.

 

[Sleeppy]

Metaphor referring to the king of Tyre.

On the surface.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

On the surface.

Opening a big can of worms there.

 

[455SinceFriday]

A will that is free would be free of all and any influnces that would affect it. Free will is a giant booming business sold to you to help you think your in control and run the show.