Who created Hamas?

[icehorse]

I was jesting at why it's wrong to use patriarchy and LGBT rights in the third world to attack other countries while also arguing for a policy on immigration and refugees which denies people from fleeing those evils. That's complicity.

It's not necessarily complicity. As I said, I'm all for aid in place. For example, it's well known that educating women and girls is a powerful tool for change, I'm all for that.

 

[icehorse]

Why is poverty so common in Africa? Why is poverty so common in the Middle East?
Europe and to a lesser extent Asia stand above due to the classical empires and how they were able to transition into the Imperialist economy today (China being the primary outlier, with state-led industrialization).

It would be an error to think that most wealth is owned by Christians due to the merits of Christianity (unless brutal theft and exploitation of the third world should be considered a 'merit').

Being an anti-dogmatist, I'm no fan of Christianity either But I think the reason that non-Islamic states tend to fare better is because science has been able to reduce the influence of religious dogma. Over the last centuries Christianity has been forced to retreat as science has advanced. This is far less true in the Islamic world. There are hundreds of millions of Muslims who will only ever have access to one book, and that book is mediocre at best. Muslims leaders tend to resist having books translated into Arabic.

Once again, improving education in the Islamic world would be a huge step forward for hundreds of millions of truly oppressed people.

 

[Revoltingest]

another dodge.

 

[icehorse]

On the wired, tired, expired spectrum that gif of yous is way past expired.

So once again, do you take Islamists at their word?

 

[Revoltingest]

On the wired, tired, expired spectrum that gif of yous is way past expired.

So once again, do you take Islamists at their word?

Qu nide.

 

[Wirey]

Interesting that you've placed responsibility to resolve this issue on the stateless Palestinian people experiencing famine and a brutal offensive, rather than the actual military or terrorists doing the fighting.

Did Hamas seize power, or were they elected, and if so, by whom?

 

[libre]

Did Hamas seize power, or were they elected, and if so, by whom?

That question is a very obvious deflection. It is wrong to push the responsibility to resolve this situation away from the powerful and onto a stateless population.

That said, the average Palestinian is under 20 years old.
edit: The last election was in 2006.
Do the math.

 

[icehorse]

That question is a very obvious deflection. It is wrong to push the responsibility to resolve this situation away from the powerful and onto a stateless population.

That said, the average Palestinian is under 20 years old.
The last election was in 2004.
Do the math.

When we debate, we attempt to poke holes in each other's arguments, correct? Earlier you complained about my "pointed questions", and now you're saying another poster made an "obvious deflection". We're debating! I'm no fan of using fallacy arguments, and I often call those out. But asking pointed questions is not a fallacy.

==

Now, based on your math, it would appear that if you wanted to create a successful terrorist organization, all you have to do is take a bunch of kids hostage. At that point you can claim that the "average age" of your group is much lower than the practical reality.

 

[Lyndon]

There's an easy solution. The people of Gaza return the hostages being held, and turn over the criminals kidnappers who took them. Israel will leave. We should all advocate for that.

If you believe that you don't understand how Zionism works and what their goals are

 

[libre]

Earlier you complained about my "pointed questions", and now you're saying another poster made an "obvious deflection".

Because it was.

Now, based on your math, it would appear that if you wanted to create a successful terrorist organization, all you have to do is take a bunch of kids hostage. At that point you can claim that the "average age" of your group is much lower than the practical reality.

I don't know how you garnered that from my post.

 

[icehorse]

Because it was.

Not to to butt in, but @Wirey's question was not a deflection. The question is quite salient to the conversation. And again, that's what we're supposed to do when debating, attempt to punch holes in our opponent's positions.

I don't know how you garnered that from my post.

YOU introduced the "average age" idea into the debate. My response was designed to demonstrate the holes in your average age argument.

 

[libre]

YOU introduced the "average age" idea into the debate. My response was designed to demonstrate the holes in your average age argument.

You might want to reread my post.

Wirey gestured at the elections which raised Hamas to power.
I pointed out that the average Palestinian living today was not of voting age to participate in those elections. Why are they responsible? For simply being born in Gaza?

Your own conjecture from my post regarding terrorists kidnapping children to artificially change the average age in 'their group' has nothing to do with my argument.

 

[Twilight Hue]

.........

That said, the average Palestinian is under 20 years old.
edit: The last election was in 2006.
Do the math.

It was still Palestinians that elected Hamas regardless.

 

[icehorse]

You might want to reread my post.

Wirey gestured at the elections which raised Hamas to power.
I pointed out that the average Palestinian living today was not of voting age to participate in those elections. Why are they responsible? For simply being born in Gaza?

Your own conjecture from my post regarding terrorists kidnapping children to artificially change the average age in 'their group' has nothing to do with my argument.

If I'm understanding you, you're acknowledging that Hamas is bad, correct? Hamas is a product of Islamism. Israel did not create political Islam. Political Islam (Islamism), has been baked into Islam since Islam's creation, 1400 years ago.

So who IS responsible? Seems clear to me that Islam is responsible.

 

[Wirey]

You might want to reread my post.

Wirey gestured at the elections which raised Hamas to power.
I pointed out that the average Palestinian living today was not of voting age to participate in those elections. Why are they responsible? For simply being born in Gaza?

Your own conjecture from my post regarding terrorists kidnapping children to artificially change the average age in 'their group' has nothing to do with my argument.

So, your argument is that the people who voted Hamas to power have all disappeared, and if there was an election in Gaza last September, the Green Party would have won and October 7th wouldn't have occurred?

I'm all for living in a fantasy world, but face it, Hamas' actions are a reflection of the will of Gazans. The average Israeli living today took land from no one in the 40's, but it's okay to murder them in a terrorist attack for being 'colonizers'? If revanchist behaviour is acceptable, aren't the Gazan's the 'colonizers', considering that was Jewish land a long time before Islam existed? "From the river to the sea" is not an offer to go hiking.

 

[libre]

So, your argument is...

Entirely different than the paragraph of straw men you just produced.

 

[Wirey]

Entirely different than the paragraph of straw men you just produced.

Then, your argument is......

 

[libre]

Then, your argument is......

Your 'simple solution' quoted below is not realistic.

The people of Gaza return the hostages being held, and turn over the criminals kidnappers who took them. Israel will leave. We should all advocate for that.

Gazan civilian lives are being put in danger by the indiscriminate Israeli counteroffensive, put in danger by Hamas operatives who hide among them, and also put in danger by a man-made famine and siege that make survival a daily struggle.

They simply are the most powerless factor in the current conflict, and to suggest that they must be the ones to rise up to solve this is practically to give up on trying to find a path towards peace.

 

[Revoltingest]

That question is a very obvious deflection. It is wrong to push the responsibility to resolve this situation away from the powerful and onto a stateless population.

That said, the average Palestinian is under 20 years old.
edit: The last election was in 2006.
Do the math.

Palestinian support for Hamas is increasing though.

Palestinian poll shows a rise in Hamas support and close to 90% wanting US-backed Abbas to resign

The findings signal more difficulties for the Biden administration’s postwar vision for Gaza and raise questions about Israel’s goal of ending Hamas’ capabilities.

apnews.com

However, this seems a natural response to Israel
imposing genocide. With Israel originating this
conflict, & being the far greater evil in it, this is
rather an enemy of my enemy is my friend situation.

 

[Wirey]

Your 'simple solution' quoted below is not realistic.

So what solution is realistic?