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Who caused Satan or the devil rebel

Saint Frankenstein

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
Also, Yahweh even admits that the Serpent has told the truth in Genesis 3:22-24:

22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever”— 23 therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from which he was taken. 24 He drove out the man; and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.

So the Serpent was not a liar! Yahweh kicked us out before we were able to eat of the Tree of Life because then we would be much more of a threat to him and not subject to his curse.

We also see the plural language, denoting that Yahweh is not the only Archon (ruler), which reflects the original polytheism.
 
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Lvcifer Invictvs said:
Adam and Eve didn't die from eating the Fruit. It says that their eyes "were opened". The Serpent told the truth. It was Yahweh that cursed them, according to Genesis 3:14-19. Notice the language - it doesn't say "as a result of eating of the Tree...", it says "I will...". Yahweh made the choice to curse the humans, the Serpent and the earth as a punishment for eating the Fruit. Furthermore, there's no reason to assume that Adam and Eve were immortal in the first place since they hadn't eaten from the Tree of Life and, later, Yahweh barred them from the Tree of Life and kicked them out of the Garden. So from a straight-forward reading of the texts, Yahweh punished the cosmos because one of his creations (humanity) decided to seek knowledge and wisdom.

So this is Yahweh's fault. It's rather cowardly to blame humans, a lost and confused species on one little planet, for cosmic catastrophe. As if we're responsible for planetary collisions and stars dying. As if we're responsible for the fact that almost all life must feed off of other life in order to survive. We're responsible for the existence of disease, parasites and all the other brutal aspects of nature? If there is a creator, it made a flawed creation and creations reflect their creator.
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Are you ok? First,I never said Adam and Eve died from eating the fruit.Where in my comment do you see such a statement? I said it was satan that tricked Eve and caused them to inherit death through sin.This came about because God had already made this law and explained it to Adam and Eve.It was satan who persuaded them to disobey.Satan knew what he was doing.He was wise and cunning,he had been around way before Adam and Eve.When they chose to break this law, and disobey against God,they made a conscious decision to do so.So, God did not curse them,they cursed themselves when they disobeyed, and broke the law.If you go right now and break a law and go to prison,it is not the state that has cursed you.It was you yourself by your own actions.You knew there was a law that said you could not do that, but you disobeyed, and broke the law anyway.Your actions have consequences, and you will pay for it accordingly.

God did not create man to be a robot.He created man to have free will.To be able to make his own decisions.There is law though, and if you break the law, you will pay.Without law there is disorder and chaos.Look around,it's obvious.
 
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te_lanus said:
Nope. That was the "Snake". Only after the "creation"/Incorporation of a "evil" entity (which was poached from Zoroastrianism during the Exile in Babylon) did the Snake of Genesis got linked to Satan (and mostly due to the Non-Canonical book of Enoch).

That's why in 2 Samuel 24 David was tempted by God to count the people of Israel, yet in 1 Chronicles 21 Satan tempted David, Since Samuel was written before the Exile,and the Idea of Satan as an evil entity didn't exist in Jewish thought. And Chronicles was written after the Exile, thus Satan as an evil entity was imprinted onto Judaism

Some Further Reading:
Iranian Impact on Judaism
A history of the Devil | Dangerous Minds
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No.......
 
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Lvcifer Invictvs said:
Also, Yahweh even admits that the Serpent has told the truth in Genesis 3:22-24:

22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever”— 23 therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from which he was taken. 24 He drove out the man; and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.

So the Serpent was not a liar! Yahweh kicked us out before we were able to eat of the Tree of Life because then we would be much more of a threat to him and not subject to his curse.

We also see the plural language, denoting that Yahweh is not the only Archon (ruler), which reflects the original polytheism.
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Satan was a liar.That's what Devil means,Liar and slanderer.They did not become like God.They could not create a universe or raise the dead.Yes, they were aware of things like they were naked.They became aware and were ashamed.Why do you think they hid from God?
 
Saint Frankenstein

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
Bible Student said:
Are you ok? First,I never said Adam and Eve died from eating the fruit.Where in my comment do you see such a statement? I said it was satan that tricked Eve and caused them to inherit death through sin.This came about because God had already made this law and explained it to Adam and Eve.It was satan who persuaded them to disobey.Satan knew what he was doing.He was wise and cunning,he had been around way before Adam and Eve.When they chose to break this law, and disobey against God,they made a conscious decision to do so.So, God did not curse them,they cursed themselves when they disobeyed, and broke the law.If you go right now and break a law and go to prison,it is not the state that has cursed you.It was you yourself by your own actions.You knew there was a law that said you could not do that, but you disobeyed, and broke the law anyway.Your actions have consequences, and you will pay for it accordingly.
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All we know is what Genesis said. Most people seem to assume that the eating of the Fruit itself is what caused death to come into being. It wasn't. It is a curse from Yahweh. Yahweh did not tell Adam and Eve that it would be him bringing death down on upon them. So Yahweh lied by omission. He made the decision to punish. He didn't have to.

Not all laws are just and sometimes we have a moral imperative to disobey some laws. You're just blaming the victim.

God did not create man to be a robot.He created man to have free will.To be able to make his own decisions.
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There is not one shred of evidence of that in the first few chapters of Genesis. When we do decide to make own decisions, Yahweh curses us! We were created to obey and serve, not to make our own decisions in life.

There is law though, and if you break the law, you will pay.Without law there is disorder and chaos.Look around,it's obvious.
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Like I said, some laws should be broken. Yahweh does not want equals, he wants servants and slaves. That's why he punished his creation so terribly because the awakened humans were a threat to him.
 
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Lvcifer Invictvs said:
All we know is what Genesis said. Most people seem to assume that the eating of the Fruit itself is what caused death to come into being. It wasn't. It is a curse from Yahweh. Yahweh did not tell Adam and Eve that it would be him bringing death down on upon them. So Yahweh lied by omission. He made the decision to punish. He didn't have to.

Not all laws are just and sometimes we have a moral imperative to disobey some laws. You're just blaming the victim.



There is not one shred of evidence of that in the first few chapters of Genesis. When we do decide to make own decisions, Yahweh curses us! We were created to obey and serve, not to make our own decisions in life.



Like I said, some laws should be broken. Yahweh does not want equals, he wants servants and slaves. That's why he punished his creation so terribly because the awakened humans were a threat to him.
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You speak of things you have no concept of.
 
Saint Frankenstein

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
Bible Student said:
Satan was a liar.That's what Devil means,Liar and slanderer.They did not become like God.They could not create a universe or raise the dead.Yes, they were aware of things like they were naked.They became aware and were ashamed.Why do you think they hid from God?
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If the Serpent was a liar, why did Yahweh admit, in the verse I posted, that the humans have become like him ("us")? Now you're just ignoring what the text plainly says!

The knowledge that the humans had gained was spiritual knowledge to attain Ascension and guide your own destiny. The knowledge and wisdom that the Serpent offered is that which free our Spirits from the chains it is imprisoned in. It doesn't have anything to do with some nonsense about literally creating entire universes or creating zombies as you ignorantly assume.
 
D

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Lvcifer Invictvs said:
If the Serpent was a liar, why did Yahweh admit, in the verse I posted, that the humans have become like him ("us")? Now you're just ignoring what the text plainly says!

The knowledge that the humans had gained was spiritual knowledge to attain Ascension and guide your own destiny. The knowledge and wisdom that the Serpent offered is that which free our Spirits from the chains it is imprisoned in. It doesn't have anything to do with some nonsense about literally creating entire universes or creating zombies as you ignorantly assume.
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When I read Genesis, all I read is a 'snake', not Lucifer, or some other entity.
 
nazz

nazz

Doubting Thomas
Lvcifer Invictvs said:
All we know is what Genesis said. Most people seem to assume that the eating of the Fruit itself is what caused death to come into being. It wasn't. It is a curse from Yahweh.
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To be more precise death was not actually part of the curses the creator imposed on A&E. They were already mortal. The creator simply denied them access to the Tree of Life that would allow them to live forever. And the reason given is that he did not want them to be become even more divine.
 
Saint Frankenstein

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
nazz said:
To be more precise death was not actually part of the curses the creator imposed on A&E. They were already mortal. The creator simply denied them access to the Tree of Life that would allow them to live forever. And the reason given is that he did not want them to be become even more divine.
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Right. You could say that he cursed us to death by not allowing us to eat of the Tree of Life.
 
nazz

nazz

Doubting Thomas
Lvcifer Invictvs said:
Right. You could say that he cursed us to death by not allowing us to eat of the Tree of Life.
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Exactly. But standard Christian teaching is that they were originally immortal (along with all other living things) and lost their immortality through their disobedience. That idea is found nowhere in the text.
 
Saint Frankenstein

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
nazz said:
Exactly. But standard Christian teaching is that they were originally immortal (along with all other living things) and lost their immortality through their disobedience. That idea is found nowhere in the text.
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Yeah, I know. So much of what they believe is not found in the Bible in the first place.
 
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