Who are the man child and the woman in Revelation 12?

[jhwatts]

I am wanting to know who the man child and the woman in Revelation 12 are. If the man child is Christ then question comes up, is he a created being and has not always been. If he is the Anti-Christ then why was he taken to God's thrown.

Please don't respond with a symbolic answer such as he is symbolic of Israel.

Any help is appreciated.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

The child is the Messiah, the dragon is the devil and the woman is Israel/the Church. The woman can also symbolize Mary.

 

[Faybull]

it is my opinion that it is referring to the stars, and a specific date when these constellations are fashioned in the way presented.

 

[Spiderman]

The woman clothed with the sun and standing on the moon, left this image on Juan Diego's tilma. It converted 15 million pagan aztects.

Scientists are baffled by it. You can do some research. Millions make pilgrimages to her shrine every year. She is the symbol of mexico Our Lady of Guadalupe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[jhwatts]

The child is the Messiah, the dragon is the devil and the woman is Israel/the Church. The woman can also symbolize Mary.

If it is safe to assume this woman is not a angelic being or heavenly being but symbolic of Israel, how is it safe to not assume the dragon here is symbolic in some fashion? Wouldn't it be safe also to assume the dragon here is symbolic of something else? I honestly realize he is the Devil here but could I not also assume symbolism here also. I felt like the man child here was Christ but wasn't sure.

I'm really wrestling with when is it safe to assume symbolism in scripture. I can see it being OK here because Revelation is a vision and visions and dreams during that time frame was typically understood to be symbolic.

 

[Kolibri]

In the Bible often women refer to "organizations" married to outstanding personalities. Re 12:5 has the child caught away to God's throne. Thus the child is his, and as such, this woman would be God's symbolic wife, not Israel, but Jerusalem above. (Ga 4:26).

Notice that she is crowned with 12 stars. The number 12 is associated with completeness in an organizational setting. Hence, these 12 stars seem to indicate that she is an organizational arrangement in heaven, just as ancient Jerusalem was on earth. Jerusalem above is Jehovah’s universal organization of spirit creatures that acts as his wife, both in serving him and in producing offspring.

About eight centuries earlier, Jehovah had addressed this symbolic wife, saying: “All your sons will be persons taught by Jehovah.” (Isaiah 54:5, 13) Jesus quoted this prophecy and showed that these sons were his faithful followers, who later formed the congregation of anointed Christians. (John 6:44, 45) So members of this congregation, spoken of as God’s sons, are also children of God’s symbolic wife. (Romans 8:14)

As the mother is an organization, so to this child born would also be an organization. It is God's Kingdom with Jesus(the Lamb) and the 144,000(New Jerusalem) being the members(body parts) of this symbolic child.

This vision is about the birth of God's Kingdom at the beginning of the "Lord's Day" or at the beginning of the "last days" and "the conclusion of [this world's] system of things."

Jehovah's Witnesses recognize this as having happened in the year 1914 C.E.

Since Satan can no longer attack the woman and her child directly. He wages war with the remaining ones of her seed/offspring that are still here on this earth.

 

[we-live-now]

I am wanting to know who the man child and the woman in Revelation 12 are. If the man child is Christ then question comes up, is he a created being and has not always been. If he is the Anti-Christ then why was he taken to God's thrown.

Please don't respond with a symbolic answer such as he is symbolic of Israel.

Any help is appreciated.

Nice question! I have pondered, journaled, and drew these things a lot. Ready for an answer so crazy you will think I am smoking crack? (I can assure you I am not!)

Below is what I have concluded by allowing "anything to be possible" and forgetting all I know based on the natural realm and living in a body under natural laws.

I have studied the entire Bible a lot and have spent a lot of time in Genesis and Revelation. They are intimately related. Remember the words of Jesus when he said "I am the first and the last"? If we see God's word from a natural human perspective, we will believe Jesus was a single natural, human man. Not true. He is a gigantic, and very powerful spiritual man who contains ALL of creation inside himself. He is both the "beginning" (Genesis 1:1) and "the end" (Revelation) all in one spiritual man that is divided up under law into smaller parts in lower "realms" or "partitions".

Now, if you go to the first time in the written word where we see "The woman", it is in Genesis 3:2 when "she" is talking to the serpent. It is later revealed in chapter 3 that she was called "Eve". (Notice it doesn't say that was her name?) Please know this is not a single, physical, human woman like we think. Nor is it merely "symbolism" or a "metaphor". That is unbelief. "The Woman" is multiple things (and this what confuses us). Think of her as the (spiritual) mother of both creations, old and new who gave birth twice.

You can see this in Genesis when it tells us that: "She was/is the mother of ALL living (things)". She is "the woman" in Revelation 12. Her "seed" is the Son who is caught up to God's throne. "She" has "a crown of 12 stars" which is her "12 children" who are the "12 tribes" of (SPIRITUAL) Israel. Technically, there are 24 tribes, 12 "natural" and 12 "spiritual". The 12 "Earthly tribes" or "nations" or "gentiles" are Ishmaels "sons". Genesis 17:20

Both these together are ALL people both spiritual and "natural" who will ever exist but the natural always comes first, dies and then "gives birth" to the spiritual. 1 Cor 15:46 By Revelation, "The woman" has "the moon under her feet". This is man's natural soul (ruled by "the nations") that (when under law) appears to be separate from his body and spirit. This "moon" is the false natural soul that will be destroyed (and become "blood") at God appointed time for all people. This is when "the woman" as them and inside them gives birth to their new creation spiritual man who is "caught up with God". Eph 2:6, Col 3:1

You are very perceptive in how you narrowed it down and yet struggle with the conclusions. This requires a paradigm shift of who Jesus (the Son) really was and is.

God the son (who we know as Jesus Christ) actually appeared to us at least twice. Once in an outwardly visible way under and through the covering of law and darkness (sin) - our natural and spiritually dead body. This is the old covenant/testament. The second time he appeared and is appearing is as his TRUE self (under grace and truth) but only in a hidden, spiritual way inside us for now. At the end, he will be revealed in truth to all people.

Anyone who is still "natural" will die immediately but then also be "born" spiritually. This is when Luke 3:6 becomes true in this realm and reality of the natural body.

Both times he was "born", however he ruled and rules with an "iron rod". "iron" means law. The first time it was harsh law that meant death to our outer man. This was because naturally, we lack any ability to fulfill this spiritual law. See Pauls POWERFUL words in Romans 7 how the law first kills us but then in Romans 8 gives us true, eternal life!. The second time he appears (second birth) it is with true and perfect, life-giving law (when he reveals true righteousness and eternal life as a complete gift). It will be by "God's law" (the highest law) because no one will be able to refuse it.

These are the "two births" of the "man-child" who would "rule the nations" with a "rod of iron". "The woman" is also our outer, natural man who is "hidden away" in the wilderness from the dragon (the law that will kill her). "The wilderness" is the spiritual location of our current fleshly (both spiritual and natural) bodies and God calls them "trees" (spiritual) and "grass" (natural). One has the "seed in the fruit" and one doesn't. God is going to have one HECK OF A GRASS-FIRE at the end of the ages when all flesh gets burned up and refined/reborn into a true spiritual nature.

I am sure this will sound absolutely insane to someone who never heard this before. But, in order to see what God is really saying, we have to realize that his words are spiritual and not natural. They are not confined or defined by space or time or anything on natural earth that we are familiar with (and have been conditioned to believe!). They can happen at ANY time and in ANY order. He decides! Parts of Genesis could (and I believe DOES) happen before (parts of) Revelation. And they are both happening right now inside and all around us in realms we can not currently see. It is man's natural mind he is born into that doesn't believe these things. God has GREAT and awesome things waiting once we leave the confines and FALSE view of the natural body (under law). The current form of all things will be totally destroyed as they "lack (true) form", when the "true substance" of Jesus Christ appears. See Genesis 1:2 and Hebrews 10:1 and 2 Peter 3:7.

(I could have a few of the specific details wrong as I am not a details person.)

 

[jhwatts]

Nice question! I have pondered, journaled, and drew these things a lot. Ready for an answer so crazy you will think I am smoking crack? (I can assure you I am not!)

Below is what I have concluded by allowing "anything to be possible" and forgetting all I know based on the natural realm and living in a body under natural laws.

I have studied the entire Bible a lot and have spent a lot of time in Genesis and Revelation. They are intimately related. Remember the words of Jesus when he said "I am the first and the last"? If we see God's word from a natural human perspective, we will believe Jesus was a single natural, human man. Not true. He is a gigantic, and very powerful spiritual man who contains ALL of creation inside himself. He is both the "beginning" (Genesis 1:1) and "the end" (Revelation) all in one spiritual man that is divided up under law into smaller parts in lower "realms" or "partitions".

Now, if you go to the first time in the written word where we see "The woman", it is in Genesis 3:2 when "she" is talking to the serpent. It is later revealed in chapter 3 that she was called "Eve". (Notice it doesn't say that was her name?) Please know this is not a single, physical, human woman like we think. Nor is it merely "symbolism" or a "metaphor". That is unbelief. "The Woman" is multiple things (and this what confuses us). Think of her as the (spiritual) mother of both creations, old and new who gave birth twice.

You can see this in Genesis when it tells us that: "She was/is the mother of ALL living (things)". She is "the woman" in Revelation 12. Her "seed" is the Son who is caught up to God's throne. "She" has "a crown of 12 stars" which is her "12 children" who are the "12 tribes" of (SPIRITUAL) Israel. Technically, there are 24 tribes, 12 "natural" and 12 "spiritual". The 12 "Earthly tribes" or "nations" or "gentiles" are Ishmaels "sons". Genesis 17:20

Both these together are ALL people both spiritual and "natural" who will ever exist but the natural always comes first, dies and then "gives birth" to the spiritual. 1 Cor 15:46 By Revelation, "The woman" has "the moon under her feet". This is man's natural soul (ruled by "the nations") that (when under law) appears to be separate from his body and spirit. This "moon" is the false natural soul that will be destroyed (and become "blood") at God appointed time for all people. This is when "the woman" as them and inside them gives birth to their new creation spiritual man who is "caught up with God". Eph 2:6, Col 3:1

You are very perceptive in how you narrowed it down and yet struggle with the conclusions. This requires a paradigm shift of who Jesus (the Son) really was and is.

God the son (who we know as Jesus Christ) actually appeared to us at least twice. Once in an outwardly visible way under and through the covering of law and darkness (sin) - our natural and spiritually dead body. This is the old covenant/testament. The second time he appeared and is appearing is as his TRUE self (under grace and truth) but only in a hidden, spiritual way inside us for now. At the end, he will be revealed in truth to all people.

Anyone who is still "natural" will die immediately but then also be "born" spiritually. This is when Luke 3:6 becomes true in this realm and reality of the natural body.

Both times he was "born", however he ruled and rules with an "iron rod". "iron" means law. The first time it was harsh law that meant death to our outer man. This was because naturally, we lack any ability to fulfill this spiritual law. See Pauls POWERFUL words in Romans 7 how the law first kills us but then in Romans 8 gives us true, eternal life!. The second time he appears (second birth) it is with true and perfect, life-giving law (when he reveals true righteousness and eternal life as a complete gift). It will be by "God's law" (the highest law) because no one will be able to refuse it.

These are the "two births" of the "man-child" who would "rule the nations" with a "rod of iron". "The woman" is also our outer, natural man who is "hidden away" in the wilderness from the dragon (the law that will kill her). "The wilderness" is the spiritual location of our current fleshly (both spiritual and natural) bodies and God calls them "trees" (spiritual) and "grass" (natural). One has the "seed in the fruit" and one doesn't. God is going to have one HECK OF A GRASS-FIRE at the end of the ages when all flesh gets burned up and refined/reborn into a true spiritual nature.

I am sure this will sound absolutely insane to someone who never heard this before. But, in order to see what God is really saying, we have to realize that his words are spiritual and not natural. They are not confined or defined by space or time or anything on natural earth that we are familiar with (and have been conditioned to believe!). They can happen at ANY time and in ANY order. He decides! Parts of Genesis could (and I believe DOES) happen before (parts of) Revelation. And they are both happening right now inside and all around us in realms we can not currently see. It is man's natural mind he is born into that doesn't believe these things. God has GREAT and awesome things waiting once we leave the confines and FALSE view of the natural body (under law). The current form of all things will be totally destroyed as they "lack (true) form", when the "true substance" of Jesus Christ appears. See Genesis 1:2 and Hebrews 10:1 and 2 Peter 3:7.

(I could have a few of the specific details wrong as I am not a details person.)

Very nice. It will take me a little while to "smoke this over". This is odd because I have been studding early Genesis and felt maybe I should look towards Revelation to draw clues on how to better understand it. It seems I am moving in the right direction.

 

[we-live-now]

Very nice. It will take me a little while to "smoke this over". This is odd because I have been studding early Genesis and felt maybe I should look towards Revelation to draw clues on how to better understand it. It seems I am moving in the right direction.

Yes!!! I am so astonished you actually read all that and are still here! I am very honored to meet you. Very few people have an open enough heart to truly dig deep, beyond all outer "religion". You have a special gift, I can sense it strongly.

There is great persecution from the "religious" for simply trying to believe what his Word plainly and directly says. I am convinced we just need a bigger "paradigm" or what he calls a new "wineskin". If we try to put these ideas into the old (covenant) "wineskin" (of law) it will not fit and will explode it. This is why the religious mind rejects the (hidden) truth.

Once we see that Jesus himself is "the beginning" and "the end" and EVERYTHING INBETWEEN, we will see things like never before. He is also the "first" (Adam) and "the last" (Adam) who we know of as "Noah". He is the head of all things and the spiritual "template" if you will but he is also inside each person that also ever lived. Christ IS all and IN all. Col 3:11. Sadly, the formal Church doesn't (yet) believe it, but he is allowing more and more people to see it.

At some point, the formal "Church" (part of his still dying body) will fully die and this will grant them repentance to finally see the truth and experience his true life. Here is how he revealed this to me. Look at Mark 15:32 and Matt 27:42.

Mark 15:32 Greek Text Analysis
Matthew 27:42 "He saved others," they said, "but he can't save himself! He's the king of Israel! Let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him.

This is powerful my friend. The word "now" is in there. It's the Greek word "nun" which means "right now at this very present time" (as you are reading this)! Here's a link: Strong's Greek: 3568. νῦν (nun) -- now, the present

Ponder this very powerful word and what it means.

Man thinks God's perspective is from INSIDE space and time. It's not. The entire Bible is written from an ETERNAL persepctive outside of all space and time. Time is irrelevant with God. Things happen when he SPEAKS them. He sets the ages and the "start" and the "finish". There is no formula we can use to "figure it out". We have to TRUST HIM working inside us. Faith is what pleases him.

So, when he says "now" it means "whenever the person reads and believes it" by realizing it means right now. So, this is huge. And it takes great faith to see it.

Part of the body of Christ (God's spiritual son) is still on the spiritual cross "dying". It is you and I (and ALL PEOPLE!) living in this current realm of "death" being separated from God in our outer man. The TRUE crucifixion was SPIRITUAL when God's Son was "divided" into 4 parts. This is all of creation yet all of man too. We think man has 3 parts (body, soul and spirit) but there is a HIDDEN 4th part called his "master". See romans 6. The master of all of us is CHRIST but again, he appeared twice. First, under the lens and view of the law and he looks like Satan (as our adversary) because the law kills all natural things. The second time he appeared (and is appearing) as the savior and the fulfillment of the law and then he appears as his REAL and TRUE self - our savior. Thus, he truly is Lord of BOTH THE LIVING (those reborn spiritually) and "The Dead" (not yet reborn) Romans 14:9.

When a person sees these things, they will suddenly begin to see the purpose our "lives" and "deaths". We are merely "carrying around in the body HIS death" and participating with him. 2 Cor 4:10 All of our outer natural "selves" and body is a "fire sacrifice" to God. His fire is not destructive however, it is Holy, purifying and refining and causes new, spiritual birth of the "seed" within us. Just study the word "pur" (fire) it is where we get the words "purity" and "purify" from.

I am very excited at where he is taking you. Continue to dig and ask. He promises you WILL find if you seek. I have been fed so many powerful and exciting things I can't begin to try to share them all. But I still try. They are SO GOOD. Journal what you hear and draw pictures. Stick with the original words as much as possible (or a literal translation like the NASB). The free program at www.scripture4all.org is awesome.

Whatever it takes. Pay attention to ALL THOUGHTS you hear and be ready to run and write them down. Always be willing to reconsider ALL YOU KNOW. Sometimes our whole "structure" has to come down. He is speaking and he sounds just like our own thoughts.

"Heaven" is not "up". It is (hidden) "in".

Heaven is WITHIN YOU! Luke 17:21 In your own mind. And so is God and Christ!

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

If it is safe to assume this woman is not a angelic being or heavenly being but symbolic of Israel, how is it safe to not assume the dragon here is symbolic in some fashion? Wouldn't it be safe also to assume the dragon here is symbolic of something else? I honestly realize he is the Devil here but could I not also assume symbolism here also. I felt like the man child here was Christ but wasn't sure.

I'm really wrestling with when is it safe to assume symbolism in scripture. I can see it being OK here because Revelation is a vision and visions and dreams during that time frame was typically understood to be symbolic.

What do you think the dragon would be symbolic of?

 

[we-live-now]

What do you think the dragon would be symbolic of?

Nice question. Same one I have asked many times.

This is going to sound like BLASPHEME to some, but I believe the dragon is the FATHER. Or at least part of the Father. God, the Father is so pure and Holy that he appears as DEATH to us in our natural state. He MUST carry out the law (which will kill us naturally) "The Dragon" (IMHO) is what the father looks like to those under the Law (death). This, by default, is all of us in our natural, outer man.

We all MUST DIE in order to be reborn again. "The Dragon" is the one who does this. He is the only one who "carries out the law" that kills our natural, outer man and releases the true, inner man - the "seed of the woman" (God's "son")

Ponder this. What does "the serpent (dragon)" call the "Lord God" in Genesis 3"?

Is it "Lord God" (like Genesis 2 in the lower realms) or is it "GOD" like Genesis 1 in the higher realms?

He has a much "higher knowledge", doesn't he? (btw, so does "the woman" not "woman"). Also, study the original word of "the great sea monsters" of Genesis 1:21. I think we can see where "the serpent" came from. Father God himself.

Strong's Hebrew: 1419. גָּדוֹל (gadol) -- great We all must experience natural "death" first in order to live. That is the what the law does. Kills us.... so we can truly live.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I am wanting to know who the man child and the woman in Revelation 12 are. If the man child is Christ then question comes up, is he a created being and has not always been. If he is the Anti-Christ then why was he taken to God's thrown.
Please don't respond with a symbolic answer such as he is symbolic of Israel.
Any help is appreciated.

Yes, Jesus is created. According to gospel writer John the pre-human Jesus is ' the beginning of the creation by God '.
- Revelation 1:5; Revelation 3:14 B.

Jesus is the male child, and the woman is God's wife-like heavenly organization.
The two opposing organizations are God's heavenly one, and Satan's demonic one which challenges God's sovereignty.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Strong's Hebrew: 1419. גָּדוֹל (gadol) -- great We all must experience natural "death" first in order to live. That is the what the law does. Kills us.... so we can truly live.

If we all must experience natural death, then how do you explain the figurative living sheep of Matthew 25:31-33,37 ?
The living humble ' sheep'-like people are alive on Earth, and they can continue to live on Earth, right into the start of Day One of Jesus' coming 1,000-year governmental rulership over Earth begins. They have the same original opportunity offered to them that was offered to Adam before his downfall. Since under Christ's millennium-long day of governing over Earth even enemy death will be NO more - 1 Corinthians 15:26; Isaiah 25:8 so, then those ' sheep ' can gain 'everlasting life on Earth' without ever having to first die.