When Vivekananda perfomed Kumari Puja on a Muslim girl worshipping her as the Divine Mother...

[Aupmanyav]

Pure consciousness has no existence in science.

 

[Polymath257]

*** Mod Post***

Please be reminded that this is a DIR forum. Members not affiliated with Hinduism are limited to polite comments. Also, this is NOT a debate forum. It is a *discussion* forum.

 

[stvdv]

Right. There is no one else to be worshiped in 'advaita' (according to my view). Denial comes when there is an assertion, otherwise no denial is needed.

The above quote "Denial...needed" is confusing, because it's a mix of advaita+dvaita [esp. within the context before it]

More clear IMHO is "Denial is seen only by the ones still in duality. The real enlightened one sees neither denial nor assertion."

 

[Aupmanyav]

'Vyavaharika' again (Pragmatic Truth). These questions do not even arise in 'Paramarthika' (Absolute Truth). What is experienced by us as humans and what is the other. Osama and Saddam were none other than Brahman, because nothing else exists.

 

[stvdv]

'Vyavaharika' again (Pragmatic Truth). These questions do not even arise in 'Paramarthika' (Absolute Truth). What is experienced by us as humans and what is the other. Osama and Saddam were none other than Brahman, because nothing else exists.

Thanks. How you put it this time I completely agree. Very clear. I didn't know the words you used in Sanskrit. 'Paramarthika satya' (Absolute Truth) + 'Vyavaharika satya' again (Pragmatic Truth). Nice words to describe truth in 2 different ways.

 

[ajay0]

So you can see that advaita was misinterpreted in the past as well by demonic characters who identified the Self with the body.

In Shankaracharya's time, he has written in his works of some who foolishly identified the Self or Brahman with one's son in those times.

So this kind of foolish misinterpretations will keep on continuing. This is one way to gauge the wisdom or foolishness of the speaker who speaks on such matters and apply critical examination as Kabir taught us .

 

[Aupmanyav]

 

[DeviChaaya]

Replying to the original post and some of the replies.

Given the context and time that this was performed it is not unusual that the father felt blessed. He was highly likely to be illiterate and if this was done with only the father, Vivekananda and his followers and the little girl there it was safe; I doubt the father told his community. Now, what does his illiteracy have anything to do with this? If he could read it would be Quranic Arabic, bear in mind he doesn't know what he's reading. So his Islam is different to today's Islam. Softer, more infiltrated by the surrounding religion and culture of Hinduism.

Why would it be different today? Most of society is literate and even the poorest will have some form of access to the internet. With all this connectivity there is a greater way to keep tabs on your brothers and sisters. With an easier time of it keeping tabs on each other it is easier to hold people to more rigid standards. Thus this boatman, today, would either think long and hard about agreeing or not at all and reject a modern day Vivekananda outright.

Times have changed.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Perhaps for the boatman, Vivekananda was a "Saab' (Sahib, sort of master). Now, you don't refuse things to 'Sahibs'. 'Sahibs' compensate well. At that time, Kashmir was poor, mostly uneducated. A whole lot has changed since then.

 

[DeviChaaya]

Perhaps for the boatman, Vivekananda was a "Saab' (Sahib, sort of master). Now, you don't refuse things to 'Sahibs'. 'Sahibs' compensate well. At that time, Kashmir was poor, mostly uneducated. A whole lot has changed since then.

That's it, exactly. So much has changed.

 

[ajay0]

Replying to the original post and some of the replies.

Given the context and time that this was performed it is not unusual that the father felt blessed. He was highly likely to be illiterate and if this was done with only the father, Vivekananda and his followers and the little girl there it was safe; I doubt the father told his community. Now, what does his illiteracy have anything to do with this? If he could read it would be Quranic Arabic, bear in mind he doesn't know what he's reading. So his Islam is different to today's Islam. Softer, more infiltrated by the surrounding religion and culture of Hinduism.

Why would it be different today? Most of society is literate and even the poorest will have some form of access to the internet. With all this connectivity there is a greater way to keep tabs on your brothers and sisters. With an easier time of it keeping tabs on each other it is easier to hold people to more rigid standards. Thus this boatman, today, would either think long and hard about agreeing or not at all and reject a modern day Vivekananda outright.

Times have changed.

The focus is not on whether a Muslim person would have agreed to Vivekananda's proposal in today's context. The focus is on how Vivekananda had worshipped a muslim girl as a manifestation of the Divine Mother performing Kumari Puja back then.

The theme here is the practice of seeing all women and girls as the manifestation of the Divine Mother.

Whether he had done it on a Muslim, Parsi , Christian or Jewish girl is irrevalent.


Also there are liberal muslims then and now as well, who are reverent towards the practices of other religions.

India's 'missile man' and former president APJ Abdul Kalam was well-versed in the bhagavad gita as well as the quran, and used to cite it in his speeches, played the veena, and was a vegetarian. The Mughal emperor Akbar was tolerant towards the practices of other religions,patronised the jains and sikhs, was a vegetarian and abolished the Jizya tax levied on non-muslim subjects. His great grandson, prince Dara Shakoh, was a scholar of both sufism and vedanta, and emphasized their similarities, and translated the upanishads into persian.

Mumtaz Ali Khan is a living yogi,saint and disciple of Sri Maheshwarnath Babaji, who similarly emphasizes the similarities between sufism and vedanta.

There is a muslim woman who have been tying Rakhi to Narendra Modi for many years now. All this shows liberal sections of muslim society that were and are accepting of Hinduism and Hindu customs.

 

[stvdv]

The lesson I learn from this puja is that we see the Divine in all women. Not differentiate between Hindu and Muslim etc.. Even more powerful, Vivekananda showed by personal example being humble; do not judge other religion. God can't be found in rituals, but rituals can be helpful to find God, but only if performer of ritual stop being rigid in it. That is what I learned from Hinduism and why I love Indian culture so much.

"There is one religion, the religion of Love"

All religions who claim to be better than others got stuck in arrogance and vain rituals. All religions have somewhere hidden in their sacred texts the words "Divine Love is the key" and "do not judge". To forget this, and focus on rituals alone is IMHO "missing the essence".

 

[Vinayaka]

All religions who claim to be better than others got stuck in arrogance and vain rituals.

In my experience, some of the folks of some religions who are stuck in arrogance don't practice much ritual at all.

Although I certainly agree with the gist of 'the religion of love' I also don't think we can be naive about the actual intentions of certain people. It can lead to disharmony or worse. That 'friend at the door' may well have a hidden agenda. Vivekananda was not naive. He wouldn't have tried this with a certain demographic, less he prove himself a fool.

 

[stvdv]

In my experience, some of the folks of some religions who are stuck in arrogance don't practice much ritual at all.

My ritual is "offer every act I do to the Divine". I wrote it from this perspective.

 

[stvdv]

Vivekananda was not naive. He wouldn't have tried this with a certain demographic, less he prove himself a fool.

I read the article. Vivekananda "actually saw the Divine Mother in the 4 year old girl". Being in such a state "demographic", "fool" etc. do not exist. Only Divine exist
IMHE

 

[Vinayaka]

My ritual is "offer every act I do to the Divine". I wrote it from this perspective.

And I was merely suggesting Islam and Christianity don't have much ritual. Nothing deeper than that.

As a Hindu, from my perspective, I agree with you. Divinity permeates. Easier said than done though. "Wisdom is the timely application of knowledge."

 

[Vinayaka]

I read the article. Vivekananda "actually saw the Divine Mother in the 4 year old girl". Being in such a state "demographic", "fool" etc. do not exist. Only Divine exist
IMHE

True. But if he'd gone further into the more radical Islamic world, he may have risked beheading, proving himself a fool. Only a fool swims in an alligator infested pond. Again, Vivekananda was no fool. Just because one can see the divine everywhere, including the alligator pond, doesn't mean he should worship there.

 

[Shantanu]

The focus is not on whether a Muslim person would have agreed to Vivekananda's proposal in today's context. The focus is on how Vivekananda had worshipped a muslim girl as a manifestation of the Divine Mother performing Kumari Puja back then.

The theme here is the practice of seeing all women and girls as the manifestation of the Divine Mother.

Whether he had done it on a Muslim, Parsi , Christian or Jewish girl is irrevalent.


Also there are liberal muslims then and now as well, who are reverent towards the practices of other religions.

India's 'missile man' and former president APJ Abdul Kalam was well-versed in the bhagavad gita as well as the quran, and used to cite it in his speeches, played the veena, and was a vegetarian. The Mughal emperor Akbar was tolerant towards the practices of other religions,patronised the jains and sikhs, was a vegetarian and abolished the Jizya tax levied on non-muslim subjects. His great grandson, prince Dara Shakoh, was a scholar of both sufism and vedanta, and emphasized their similarities, and translated the upanishads into persian.

Mumtaz Ali Khan is a living yogi,saint and disciple of Sri Maheshwarnath Babaji, who similarly emphasizes the similarities between sufism and vedanta.

There is a muslim woman who have been tying Rakhi to Narendra Modi for many years now. All this shows liberal sections of muslim society that were and are accepting of Hinduism and Hindu customs.

The reality is that all women and girls are not manifestations of Divine Mother. Lot of women are childless.

 

[stvdv]

The reality is that all women and girls are not manifestations of Divine Mother. Lot of women are childless.

I think Vivekananda was not expecting the 4year old to be expecting anytime soon

 

[Shantanu]

I think Vivekananda was not expecting the 4year old to be expecting anytime soon

In my honest opinion the Divine in the feminine form is not a Mother figure that nurtures us as babies and children. Once we are born we are left to our own fates.