Yes, but they still have their priests helping folks to a deeper spiritual experience. That's the point.
But, shouldn't there at least be a correlation between how much the priests work and the effects? I think there should even be a causal relationship.
I'd be interested to see some backing evidence here.
Sure, let's get down to what I mean in that case; the driving force in Europe for women's suffrage, an end to discrimination of women and corporal punishment/torture were political parties, trade unions and professional organizations.
Here's on the corporal punishment movement in Sweden (we were the first country in Western Europe, it spread all over the continent after that),
here's on women's suffrage outside the United States, and it was mostly worker's parties in Europe who drove the motion (I assume you allready know about the fact that European worker's parties have a strong, secular tradition) and
here's on the the early beginnings of the feminist movement, and the fact that it can be traced to the Enlightments secular arguments.
Happy to!
Most people conceive of God as something "outside"of us, acting upon us causationally. But those who have had the benefit of spiritual formation come to know that God is within us. When we open ourselves, it doesn't let God in, it lets God out.
I'm sorry, but doesn't that mean that he was with us all along? What's the point of the transformation then? Or do you mean that before we realized how to let God out, we didn't really act spiritually and was letting our petty desires out?
I posit that, whatever clothing you put on it, self-sacrifice is a spiritual endeavor, because our natural reaction is self-preservation. Altruism involves tearing down limiting barriers.
But if the person who helps out doesn't realize it's a spiritual act, is there no effect in the grand scheme of things then?
The "benefit to your studies," though, is a misdirection of my point. Building a model car is of no benefit to one's "studies." My point was that these activities are self-actualizing. If God just "did it all for us" there would be no self-actualization.
Yes, I realized that, but there is a benefit coming through this transformation, right? I mean, church isn't just for fun and self-actualization, clergy and worshippers are actually making a difference in their lives, right?
No you don't. Sometimes the most fulfilling experiences are serendipitous -- not expected. Goals are sometimes necessary. Sometimes the process is necessary.
Yes, but the process is also a whole line of goals. Here, let's say you love to cook food. When you follow a recipe you reach goal after goal even before you eat. You have to reach the part where you turn on the oven, raise the hand in order to chop the onion and other, infinitesimal stuff. It's the same when you go for a walk. You have to put on your shoes, put your right foot in front of your left, put the left in front of your right and a seemingly infinite amount of small goals. A process is just that intermediate time when you haven't reached the
final goal yet.
Yes, but ultimately, God had to become Incarnate in Jesus.
Can't he just do that again, but this time use satellite TV, news papers and the Internet instead of a few hundred thousand people and asking a fraction of them to form churches? Or just go for telepathy?