What's the point of clergy?

[rusra02]

And we don't dismiss them. But presidents, monarchs and generals also start bloody wars (to wit: the careful orchestration of the unnecessary war in Iraq by King George the Unwise). Yet, we say we need a president, and many people voted for the idiot... twice.

There is a higher percentage of pedophilia among volunteers who work with children. Shall we outlaw the YMCA? There are more money grubbers in industry. Shall we outlaw industry? There are also a lot of false teachings going on in our public schools. Let's outlaw them, too. Humanity is rife with moral misconduct. Let's just kill all of us and be done with it.

You're looking to scapegoat the clergy for being human. How dumb is that?!

Pointing to the sins of others does not excuse the clergy for their sins. "Being human" is no excuse for the gross misconduct and evil the clergy as a class have perpetrated in the name of God. Jesus denunciation of the clergy of his day stands as a warning example to their modern-day counterparts. (Matthew 23) I believe the Bible teaches that God's righteous judgments against this entire wicked system, political, religious, and commercial, is drawing near. (2 Peter 3:7, 1 Thessalonians 1:6-9)

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[sojourner]

Ever heard the story of "The Four Asian Tigers"? There was once upon a time four countries who were desperately poor, illiterate, unskilled and severely hurt by the largest war in history. They did have some contact with christianity, going back not much more than a century, but christianity never really got a foothold in any of those four countries during these trying times. However, they all pulled out of poverty and became four of the most developed countries in the World, with higher literacy and longer life expectancy thanm the United States. They're called Singapore, Hong Kong, Taiwan and South Korea.

And those countries are highly Buddhist. Ever seen those guys walking around in their saffron robes? Priests.

Western Europe had alot of trained engineers, a love for money and effeciency, and the funding to start the Industrial Revolution. That's the reason I have clean water, most of my family members are alive well into their 80s and we have the resources to enforce a democracy. We just happened to be christian in the 19th century, and it didn't play any role of what happened. Christianity's influence fell throughout the 20th century and our living standards outgrew the United States throughout this period.

In Western Xy, the machine was largely political, not religious. But it was a religious group that began movements such as the Great Awakening and the Second Great Awakening that spawned prohibition and anti-slavery.

With the risk of sounding more obnoxious, isn't that basically what you allready believe when you're a christian?

No. Most baby believers conceptualize an outside-in paradigm. It's really an inside-out paradigm.

How did we lose them to begin with, yet we don't lose the breathing reflex? Wouldn't it be better if we didn't lose that one, seeing as people won't reteach it perfectly and the influence that teaching position has can be abused?

Egocentrism. We have to learn self-sacrifice.

But, then that means millions of people aren't living life to their fullest simply because God didn't take this job on himself. Didn't he want everyone to live life to it's fullest?

Didn't you build stuff as a kid -- model ships or airplanes or something? How could enjoy the accomplishment and ownership if your dad did the building and just handed it to you?

There's a reason you were riding your bike as a kid; you liked it. You progressed through moments of enjoyment when you went on a bike ride. You progress through moments of enjoyment when you take a cup of coffee too. A progress from one moment to the other falls within the definition of a journey, and if we can divide a joruney into infinitely smaller ones (remember calculus?) everything you do for a reason is a journey. In it's most abstract sense, and in the sense I'm discussing.

And it's learning to enjoy those moments, instead of simply focusing on the destination that's important.

This still sounds like alot of things we could achieve with God not being limited anyway. He could just tell us to value relationships.

Again: the outside-in paradigm. The most valuable learning is what we learn ourselves -- not what somebody tells us.

Well, yes. But independent study with God avaliable to offer help 24/7/365 is still infinitely better. A priest will never be as good as God at helping that process, God being all powerful and perfect.

God works through human agency. Embodiment is the only way we have of perceiving God, since we are embodied beings.

 

[sojourner]

Pointing to the sins of others does not excuse the clergy for their sins.

Sin in others is not an excuse for genocide, either. they tried that tactic in Germany, Serbia, Rwanda... need I go on?

"Being human" is no excuse for the gross misconduct and evil the clergy as a class have perpetrated in the name of God.

Neither is it an excuse for eradication. See above.

Jesus denunciation of the clergy of his day stands as a warning example to their modern-day counterparts.

Jesus never mentions Levites or high priests. He does mention lawyers and monks. And yes, one should rail against abuse of power.

I believe the Bible teaches that God's righteous judgments against this entire wicked system, political, religious, and commercial, is drawing near.

Then why aren't you on about presidents, lawyers, industrialists, televangelists, and yourself, as well as the clergy?

 

[nrg]

And those countries are highly Buddhist. Ever seen those guys walking around in their saffron robes? Priests.

Yes, and here's what's so weird; buddhists don't congregate as much as christians do, it's more of a somewhat independent religion and the majority of the responsibility to keep traditions going is on family.

And even if it wasn't, are you saying christian congregations offers nothing buddhist ones can't?

In Western Xy, the machine was largely political, not religious. But it was a religious group that began movements such as the Great Awakening and the Second Great Awakening that spawned prohibition and anti-slavery.

Yes, but it was secular ones in Europe that spawned women's suffrage and an end for corporal punishment, discrimination against women (somewhat) and torture.

No. Most baby believers conceptualize an outside-in paradigm. It's really an inside-out paradigm.

Could you elaborate?

Egocentrism. We have to learn self-sacrifice.

But there's alot of ways to learn self sacrifice, I've done alot of volounteering (but christians were over represented at the places I worked, I'll admit that). And there's alot of psychological benefits to the person who do altruistic acts. can't we just teach this as we teach democracy in schools?

Didn't you build stuff as a kid -- model ships or airplanes or something? How could enjoy the accomplishment and ownership if your dad did the building and just handed it to you?

I do admit that doing stuff yourself is a good way to feel better (I made a chalk board to do my engineering- and math studies more effeciently a few months ago, one of the best feelings ever) but if I had to chose between getting a chalk board for free or never getting one within my lifetime, I would've brought home the chalk board anyway because of the benefits to my studies.

And it's learning to enjoy those moments, instead of simply focusing on the destination that's important.

But my point is those moments are infinitesimal destinations in themselves. You get a combined sense of satisfaction after a good bike ride, but you need to reach every single one of those happy moments.

God works through human agency. Embodiment is the only way we have of perceiving God, since we are embodied beings.

Didn't he turn into bushes and stuff to get around that problem before?

 

[sojourner]

Yes, and here's what's so weird; buddhists don't congregate as much as christians do, it's more of a somewhat independent religion and the majority of the responsibility to keep traditions going is on family.

Yes, but they still have their priests helping folks to a deeper spiritual experience. That's the point.

And even if it wasn't, are you saying christian congregations offers nothing buddhist ones can't?

Buddhism is a perfectly honorable, legitimate and efficacious religion.

Yes, but it was secular ones in Europe that spawned women's suffrage and an end for corporal punishment, discrimination against women (somewhat) and torture.

I'd be interested to see some backing evidence here.

Could you elaborate?

Happy to!
Most people conceive of God as something "outside"of us, acting upon us causationally. But those who have had the benefit of spiritual formation come to know that God is within us. When we open ourselves, it doesn't let God in, it lets God out.

But there's alot of ways to learn self sacrifice, I've done alot of volounteering (but christians were over represented at the places I worked, I'll admit that). And there's alot of psychological benefits to the person who do altruistic acts. can't we just teach this as we teach democracy in schools?

I posit that, whatever clothing you put on it, self-sacrifice is a spiritual endeavor, because our natural reaction is self-preservation. Altruism involves tearing down limiting barriers.

I do admit that doing stuff yourself is a good way to feel better (I made a chalk board to do my engineering- and math studies more effeciently a few months ago, one of the best feelings ever) but if I had to chose between getting a chalk board for free or never getting one within my lifetime, I would've brought home the chalk board anyway because of the benefits to my studies.

The "benefit to your studies," though, is a misdirection of my point. Building a model car is of no benefit to one's "studies." My point was that these activities are self-actualizing. If God just "did it all for us" there would be no self-actualization.

But my point is those moments are infinitesimal destinations in themselves. You get a combined sense of satisfaction after a good bike ride, but you need to reach every single one of those happy moments.

No you don't. Sometimes the most fulfilling experiences are serendipitous -- not expected. Goals are sometimes necessary. Sometimes the process is necessary.

Didn't he turn into bushes and stuff to get around that problem before?

Yes, but ultimately, God had to become Incarnate in Jesus.

 

[nrg]

Yes, but they still have their priests helping folks to a deeper spiritual experience. That's the point.

But, shouldn't there at least be a correlation between how much the priests work and the effects? I think there should even be a causal relationship.

I'd be interested to see some backing evidence here.

Sure, let's get down to what I mean in that case; the driving force in Europe for women's suffrage, an end to discrimination of women and corporal punishment/torture were political parties, trade unions and professional organizations.

Here's on the corporal punishment movement in Sweden (we were the first country in Western Europe, it spread all over the continent after that), here's on women's suffrage outside the United States, and it was mostly worker's parties in Europe who drove the motion (I assume you allready know about the fact that European worker's parties have a strong, secular tradition) and here's on the the early beginnings of the feminist movement, and the fact that it can be traced to the Enlightments secular arguments.

Happy to!
Most people conceive of God as something "outside"of us, acting upon us causationally. But those who have had the benefit of spiritual formation come to know that God is within us. When we open ourselves, it doesn't let God in, it lets God out.

I'm sorry, but doesn't that mean that he was with us all along? What's the point of the transformation then? Or do you mean that before we realized how to let God out, we didn't really act spiritually and was letting our petty desires out?

I posit that, whatever clothing you put on it, self-sacrifice is a spiritual endeavor, because our natural reaction is self-preservation. Altruism involves tearing down limiting barriers.

But if the person who helps out doesn't realize it's a spiritual act, is there no effect in the grand scheme of things then?

The "benefit to your studies," though, is a misdirection of my point. Building a model car is of no benefit to one's "studies." My point was that these activities are self-actualizing. If God just "did it all for us" there would be no self-actualization.

Yes, I realized that, but there is a benefit coming through this transformation, right? I mean, church isn't just for fun and self-actualization, clergy and worshippers are actually making a difference in their lives, right?

No you don't. Sometimes the most fulfilling experiences are serendipitous -- not expected. Goals are sometimes necessary. Sometimes the process is necessary.

Yes, but the process is also a whole line of goals. Here, let's say you love to cook food. When you follow a recipe you reach goal after goal even before you eat. You have to reach the part where you turn on the oven, raise the hand in order to chop the onion and other, infinitesimal stuff. It's the same when you go for a walk. You have to put on your shoes, put your right foot in front of your left, put the left in front of your right and a seemingly infinite amount of small goals. A process is just that intermediate time when you haven't reached the final goal yet.

Yes, but ultimately, God had to become Incarnate in Jesus.

Can't he just do that again, but this time use satellite TV, news papers and the Internet instead of a few hundred thousand people and asking a fraction of them to form churches? Or just go for telepathy?

 

[sojourner]

But, shouldn't there at least be a correlation between how much the priests work and the effects? I think there should even be a causal relationship.

Spiritual work can't be quantified.

Sure, let's get down to what I mean in that case; the driving force in Europe for women's suffrage, an end to discrimination of women and corporal punishment/torture were political parties, trade unions and professional organizations.

Here's on the corporal punishment movement in Sweden (we were the first country in Western Europe, it spread all over the continent after that), here's on women's suffrage outside the United States, and it was mostly worker's parties in Europe who drove the motion (I assume you allready know about the fact that European worker's parties have a strong, secular tradition) and here's on the the early beginnings of the feminist movement, and the fact that it can be traced to the Enlightments secular arguments.

Thanks.

I'm sorry, but doesn't that mean that he was with us all along?

Yes, for all intents and purposes.

What's the point of the transformation then? Or do you mean that before we realized how to let God out, we didn't really act spiritually and was letting our petty desires out?

Yes. But it's not a one-shot deal. Transformation is an ongoing process.

But if the person who helps out doesn't realize it's a spiritual act, is there no effect in the grand scheme of things then?

Why do you feel that religion has a monopoly on altruism?

Yes, I realized that, but there is a benefit coming through this transformation, right? I mean, church isn't just for fun and self-actualization, clergy and worshippers are actually making a difference in their lives, right?

Correct -- if they're working at it. it doesn't just happen by magic or osmosis.

Yes, but the process is also a whole line of goals. Here, let's say you love to cook food. When you follow a recipe you reach goal after goal even before you eat. You have to reach the part where you turn on the oven, raise the hand in order to chop the onion and other, infinitesimal stuff. It's the same when you go for a walk. You have to put on your shoes, put your right foot in front of your left, put the left in front of your right and a seemingly infinite amount of small goals. A process is just that intermediate time when you haven't reached the final goal yet.

but there's a fundamental difference in intent. When one goes for a walk, one doesn't focus on just putting one foot in front of the other. One enjoys the sunshine, the breeze, the sights. One enjoys the idea of "taking a walk." Walking gives one time to think and ruminate. One enjoys engaging in the process of walking. The "goal" isn't the end result.

Can't he just do that again, but this time use satellite TV, news papers and the Internet instead of a few hundred thousand people and asking a fraction of them to form churches? Or just go for telepathy?

Why would God need to do that?