Whats the facination with Born Of a Virgin?

[Sententia]

Throughout history it seems new religions constantly emerge which are usually just minor alterations to either secular traditions, pagan tradition, superstition or just parts of other religions.

One thing that seems to stick in many of these religions even today is the concept of a virgin birth.

Why a virgin? Are virgins more moral? Is a girl who killed her parents but never had sex more moral than a girl who did have sex but lived a moral life? If a girl is a virgin is she precluded from doing evil acts? She has the gun, she tries to pull the trigger but as a virgin she simply can't do it?

Is a virgin birth considered a miracle? Is parthenogenesis considered holy or sacred? From my rudimentary understanding it occurs in nature all the time just not so much in mammals. (Although is has been done and could be done in humans)

Is the claim of being born of a virgin a jesus only story? Many gods and mythical personalities are believed to be born of virgins: Ra, Jesus, Krishna, Buddha, Hertha and Dionysus. (There are many more...)

Its an interesting story but it could occur naturally and non miraculously and how did the people who wrote jesus, ra or whoever was born of virgin even know? Did they do a DNA test? Did the nurse maid run a quick paternity test and pray to god to manifest so she can verify?

The whole theory seems to be a superstitious interpretation of older myths that was perpetuated because people just didn't know any better. (Anyone catch House btw? hehe)

 

[3.14]

most likely it was because back then it was like woman were for getting legacy and sandwiches so now what happpens when a woman gets legacy without a man involve people start to be all like he its guys who are suppose to be the ones getting legacy, where do you get of getting one without a guy

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

You've been watching House haven't you? Parthenogenesis was part of one of the recent episodes.

Anyway, virgin births are nothing new. Zeus impregnated virgins so their births would have been virgin births.

 

[lunamoth]

In the Bible anyway I don't think the fascination is that Mary was Virgin but that like the birth of Isaac in the OT the birth would not happen except through God's will. Sarah was supposed to be too old to give birth, and that is a easier obstacle to overcome than virgin birth I would say.

Anyway, maybe I'm alone in this, but I don't think it has anything to do with sex (or lack of sex) per se.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Is the claim of being born of a virgin a jesus only story? Many gods and mythical personalities are believed to be born of virgins: Ra, ... (There are many more...)

Could you please offer a credible citation showing Ra born of a virgin?

 

[Sententia]

Could you please offer a credible citation showing Ra born of a virgin?

I have read this a few times but most recently it was in an interview of Barbara Walker. Many parts of christianity are based on old egyptian religions and at one time I thought Ra was a direct correlation to Jesus but I later concluded Horus was probably a better fit.

Anyways check out Neith, Ra's mommy to see one myth of Ra's birth. There are others of course. I can add sources later but you can check wikipedia or I believe volume 33 of the The American Journal of Semitic Languages and Literatures will have a reference if you want to check the end notes and see where they are citing it from. Books.google.com has it.

I'll be back around later. I am surprised that so few are facinated with the virgin birth myth. It immediately impressed me as a child... Of course I was a 1 parent child.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I can add sources later but ....

I'll wait.

 

[Sententia]

I'll wait.

Start with Ernest Alfred Wallis Budge's "The Gods of the Egyptians vol 1" pages 457-462 (also on books.google.com)

I would note there are many interpretations of the Ra myth and my argument does not depend on just one but in the fact that their are numerous virgin birth myths prior to Jesus.

The statements of Greek writers, taken together with the evidence derived from the heiroglyphic texts, prove that in the very early times Net was the personification of the eternal female principle of life which was self-sustaining and self-existant, and was secret, and unknown, and all-pervading; the more material thinkers, whilst admitting that she brought forth her son Ra without the aid of a husband, were unable to divorce from their minds the idea that a male germ was neccessary for his production, and finding it impossible to derive it from a power or being external to the goddess, assumed that she herself provided not only the substance which was to form the body of Ra but all the male germ which fecundated it. Thus Net (Neith) was the prototype of partheno-genesis.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Are we sure Jesus was male.
Virgin birth scientifically can not produce Males ... no y chromosome available.

The early religious writers knew nothing of science so things such as virgin birth did not present a problem to them... however It perhaps indicates where story telling entered the more imaginative phase.

This particular problem is not one that bothers me in the least... It matters not to me if Mary was the perpetual virgin or not... The birth of Jesus was enough in itself.

 

[logician]

I think we can assume that the "virgin" birth was a tale co-opted from previous religions like Mithraism. Unfortunately, the whole "sex" thing became a great source of guilt in the Christian religion, both in Catholicism(priests and nuns must remain celibant), and later on in many of the offshoots of Protestantism.

 

[Breathe]

I think it has something to do with the fact they must be super-special and they become sexed-up as time goes. The person can't be born from a normal person if he's a saviour - he has to be born of a virgin, God [or a god] in the flesh™! He cannot be born of two humans, noooo, that's too ordinary - it could also be because of syncretism with other mystery religions, but it's not a new concept.

I personally take the word "almah" to have meant young woman in the case of Christianity, and combined with Mithraism and textual editing by early scribes, Jesus turned into a virgin-born godman.

 

[tomspug]

The virgin birth was a prophesy of Isaiah. This is conjunction with the Micah prophecy that the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem is what points Christians towards the belief that Mary bore Jesus, being a virgin.

Of course it's not verifiable by history, considering the class Jesus was apparently born into. This was one of the foci of the play I recently wrote and directed, was questioning the reasons why events are said to have happened in this way and why they are important. The conclusion I came to as a writer was that the journey from obscurity to infamy is one of the greatest examples of the self-evidency of a miracle.

I will elaborate. Take for example, someone trying to convince others that something that is not true is true. Ideally, they will put every effort within their power to push the story, manually, into infamy through tools such as exaggeration, extravagance, etc. What makes the virgin story unique is that it fulfills every Messianic prophecy associated with the Christ's birth while simultaneously putting it in the most obscure, lowly, and un-extravagant context possible.

The fact that this story has gone from its roots of obscurity into the infamy it has now attained is astonishing, to the point where one must question how such a story could come into wide acceptance without it being true. And let's not forget that this story is only one chapter in Matthew, where even if Jesus wasn't born of a virgin, there are still countless fulfillings of prophecy and incredible teachings and actions to be contended with, apparently associated with this man.

What is most incredible about the idea of God becoming flesh has little to do even with the concept of it, but how it makes people feel, what sort of impact it has on their lives. I saw this first hand yesterday as the audience dispersed and I could see on their faces and hear in their words how the story had moved them, how real it seemed and how true it felt in their hearts. This is not an experienced that can be processed with the mind but can only be experienced. That is the only way I can properly address this topic, I think.

 

[matthew.william]

I have read this a few times but most recently it was in an interview of Barbara Walker. Many parts of christianity are based on old egyptian religions and at one time I thought Ra was a direct correlation to Jesus but I later concluded Horus was probably a better fit.

...And what of Horus has anything to do with a "virgin" birth?

 

[matthew.william]

I think we can assume that the "virgin" birth was a tale co-opted from previous religions like Mithraism. Unfortunately, the whole "sex" thing became a great source of guilt in the Christian religion, both in Catholicism(priests and nuns must remain celibant), and later on in many of the offshoots of Protestantism.

I think it has something to do with the fact they must be super-special and they become sexed-up as time goes. The person can't be born from a normal person if he's a saviour - he has to be born of a virgin, God [or a god] in the flesh™! He cannot be born of two humans, noooo, that's too ordinary - it could also be because of syncretism with other mystery religions, but it's not a new concept.

I personally take the word "almah" to have meant young woman in the case of Christianity, and combined with Mithraism and textual editing by early scribes, Jesus turned into a virgin-born godman.

Wasn't Mithra born from the rock or something like that? I may be wrong but that's always been my understanding.

~matthew.william~

 

[Breathe]

Wasn't Mithra born from the rock or something like that? I may be wrong but that's always been my understanding.

~matthew.william~

Mithra was born from a rock, yeah [though many people don't realize that ] - but Jesus shares more in common with Mithra and Dionysus than the majority of the other religions, I guess. Within the region Jesus was alive, we have the following who were claimed as to have been born of virgins, courtesy of Wiki.

1. Tammuz
2. Zoroaster
3. Tukulti-Ninurta II
4. Ashurbanipal
5. Alexander the Great

So, though Mithras may not have been, there is a lot of folklore on virgin births within the immediate area. If Buddhists and Hindus had any influence in the area, then they too could have - but this is not known, so there's no point in discussing such possibilities.

 

[logician]

1.The virgin birth was a prophesy of Isaiah. This is conjunction with the Micah prophecy that the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem is what points Christians towards the belief that Mary bore Jesus, being a virgin.

Of course it's not verifiable by history, considering the class Jesus was apparently born into. This was one of the foci of the play I recently wrote and directed, was questioning the reasons why events are said to have happened in this way and why they are important. The conclusion I came to as a writer was that the journey from obscurity to infamy is one of the greatest examples of the self-evidency of a miracle.

I will elaborate. Take for example, someone trying to convince others that something that is not true is true. Ideally, they will put every effort within their power to push the story, manually, into infamy through tools such as exaggeration, extravagance, etc. What makes the virgin story unique is that it fulfills every Messianic prophecy associated with the Christ's birth while simultaneously putting it in the most obscure, lowly, and un-extravagant context possible.

2. The fact that this story has gone from its roots of obscurity into the infamy it has now attained is astonishing, to the point where one must question how such a story could come into wide acceptance without it being true. And let's not forget that this story is only one chapter in Matthew, where even if Jesus wasn't born of a virgin, there are still countless fulfillings of prophecy and incredible teachings and actions to be contended with, apparently associated with this man.

3.What is most incredible about the idea of God becoming flesh has little to do even with the concept of it, but how it makes people feel, what sort of impact it has on their lives. I saw this first hand yesterday as the audience dispersed and I could see on their faces and hear in their words how the story had moved them, how real it seemed and how true it felt in their hearts. This is not an experienced that can be processed with the mind but can only be experienced. That is the only way I can properly address this topic, I think.

1. Actually, the propheices of the OT were for their day and time only, not hundreds or thousands of years hence. Matthew simply manufactued his Jesus to fit the prophecies.

2. Not taken in the light if history, when the Xian literalists went to great lengths, including wars, murder and torture, to perpetuate their myth. Myths can be perpetuated just as easiily as reality, it's those writing the history that decide what gets passed on.

3. Yes, religion can make you emotional, which has nothing to do with its history, or factual basis.

 

[matthew.william]

Mithra was born from a rock, yeah [though many people don't realize that ] - but Jesus shares more in common with Mithra and Dionysus than the majority of the other religions, I guess.

Like what?

Within the region Jesus was alive, we have the following who were claimed as to have been born of virgins, courtesy of Wiki.

1. Tammuz
2. Zoroaster
3. Tukulti-Ninurta II
4. Ashurbanipal
5. Alexander the Great

So, though Mithras may not have been, there is a lot of folklore on virgin births within the immediate area. If Buddhists and Hindus had any influence in the area, then they too could have - but this is not known, so there's no point in discussing such possibilities.

I didn't find anything related to virginal births with who you listed (Wiki-wise, at least). I did figure out that the painting in the local kebab shop was Zoroaster though, so there's one life-puzzle of mine solved.

~matthew.william~

 

[logician]

The "slight" resemblence of Christianity to other religions:

MITHRAS = CHRISTIANITY?​

​

This religion, cloaked in mystery and secrecy, has captivated the imaginations of scholars for generations. Many facts discovered sheds vital light on the cultural dynamics that led to the rise of Christianity. The National Geographic Society’s book “Great Religions of the World,” page 309 writes; “By Jesus’ time, East and West had mingled here for three centuries. Down columns of boulevards walked Roman soldiers loyal to the Persian god Mithras.” Mithras was a Persian deity. He was also the most widely venerated god in the Roman Empire at the time of Jesus. The Catholic Encyclopedia as well as the early Church Fathers found this religion of Mithras very disturbing, as there are so many similarities between the two religions, as follows:

1) Hundreds of years before Jesus, according to the Mithraic religion, three Wise Men of Persia came to visit the baby savior-god Mithra, bring him gifts of gold, myrrh and frankincense.
2) Mithra was born on December 25 as told in the “Great Religions of the World”, page 330; “…it was the winter solstice celebrated by ancients as the birthday of Mithraism’s sun god”.c
3) According to Mithraism, before Mithra died on a cross, he celebrated a “Last Supper with his twelve disciples, who represented the twelve signs of the zodiac.
4) After the death of Mithra, his body was laid to rest in a rock tomb.
5) Mithra had a celibate priesthood.
6) Mithra ascended into heaven during the spring (Passover) equinox (the time when the sun crosses the equator making night and day of equal length).

As you can now see, Christianity derived many of its essential elements from the ancient religion of Mithraism. Mithraism became intertwined with the cult of Jesus to form what is known today as “Christianity.”

We often hear about how many of the traditions, rites and symbols of modern day "Christian" holidays have their roots in paganism. Have you ever wondered why December 25th was chosen to celebrate the birth of Jesus? Could it only be a consequence that ancient paganism and the story of Mithras' birth coincides with the Yule/Christmas season? .

. The followers refer to Him as the "Light of the World" a phrase often used also in Christian faith when referring to Jesus.

This son of a god born of a virgin, was so commonly spread in those days that Philo of Alexandria (30 BCE - 45 CE), warned against this widespread superstitious belief in unions between male gods and human females. The offspring’s are known as demigods.

Tammuz, who was incorporated also into Attis and Mithras, and they stood model for the story in the NT, because they were deities who all are supposed to have died and resurrected. Tammuz was always called Adon, meaning Lord. (the Greek Adonis, was based on him). Actually all these deities were based on the first deity to have died and resurrected, the Egyptian deity Osiris. So there is absolutely nothing unique about Jesus. In fact he is copyright due to Osiris.


Of the following (semi) deities legends went around that they were born of a virgin:
. A brief review of some of these :


ATTIS - Phrygia: Born of the virgin Nana on December 25. He was both the Father and the Divine Son. He was a savior crucified on a tree for the salvation of mankind. He was buried but on the third day the priests found the tomb empty -- He had arisen from the dead (on March 25th). He followers were baptized in blood, thereby washing away their sins -- after which they declared themselves "born again." His followers ate a sacred meal of bread, which they believed became the body of the savoir.

BUDDIAH – INDIA: Born of the Virgin Maya on December 25th. He was announced by a star and attended by wise men presenting costly gifts. At birth angles sing heavenly songs. He taught in temple at age 12. Tempted by Mara, the Evil One (Satan), while fasting. He was baptized in water with the Spirit of God present. Buddiah healed the sick and fed 500 from a small basket of cakes and even walked on water. He came to fulfill the law and preached the establishment of a kingdom of righteousness and obliged followers to poverty and to renounce the world. He transfigured on a mount. Died (on a cross, in some traditions), buried but arose again after tomb opened by supernatural powers. Ascended into heaven (Nirvana). Will return in later days to judge the dead. Buddiah was called: "Good Shepherd," "Carpenter," "Alpha and Omega," "Sin Bearer," "Master," "Light of the World," "Redeemer," etc.

DIONYSUS - GREECE: Born of a Virgin on December 25th, placed in a manger. He was a traveling teacher who performed many miracles. Turned water into wine. Followers ate sacred meal that became the body of the god. He rose from the dead March 25th. Identified with the ram and lamb's and was called "King of Kings," "Only Begotten Son," "Savior," "Redeemer," "Sin bearer," "Anointed One," the "Alpha and Omega."

HERACLES – GREECE: Born at the winter equinox of a virgin who refrained from sex with her until her god-begotten child was born and was sacrificed at the spring equinox. He too, was called "Savior," "Only begotten," "Prince of Peace," "Son of Righteousness."

KRISHNA - INDIA: Krishna was born while his foster-father Nanda was in the city to pay his tax to the king. His nativity heralded by a star, Krishna was born of the virgin Devaki in a cave, which at the time of his birth was miraculously illuminated. The cow-herds adored his birth. King Kansa sought the life of the Indian Christ by ordering the massacre of all male children born during the same night at He. Krishna traveled widely, performing miracles -- raising the dead, healing lepers, the deaf and the blind. The crucified Krishna is pictured on the cross with arms extended. Pierced by an arrow while hanging on the cross, Krishna died, but descended into Hell from which He rose again on the third day and ascended into Heaven. (The Gospel of Nicodemus tell of Jesus' descent into Hell.) He will return on the last day to judge the quick and the dead. Krishna is the second person of the Hindu trinity.

OSIRIS – EGYPT: He came to fulfill the law. Called "KRST," the "Anointed One." Born of the virgin Isis-Meri on December 25th in a cave / manger, with his birth announced by a star and attended by three wise men. Earthly father named "Seb" (translates to "Joseph.") At age 12 he was a child teacher in the Temple and at 30 he was baptized, having disappeared for 18 years. Osiris was baptized in the river Iarutana -- the river Jordan -- by "Anup the Baptizer," who was beheaded. (Anup translates to John.) He performed miracles, exorcised demons, raised El-Osiris from the dead. Walked on water and was betrayed by Typhon, crucified between two thieves on the 17th day of the month of Athyr. Buried in a tomb from which he arose on the third day (19th Athyr) and was resurrected. His suffering, death, and resurrection celebrated each year by His disciples on the Vernal Equinox -- Easter. Called "The Way, the Truth, the Light," "Messiah," "god's Anointed god's Anointed Son,' the "Son of Man," the "Word made Flesh," the "word of truth." Expected to reign a thousand years.

MITHRAS = CHRISTIANITY

 

[Breathe]

Like what?

Hoo boy. There's a lot out there..

Dionysus:

• Osiris-Dionysus is God made flesh, the savior and "Son of God."
• His father is God and his mother is a mortal virgin.
• He is born in a cave or humble cowshed on December 25 before three shepherds.
• He offers his followers the chance to be born again through the rites of baptism.
• He miraculously turns water into wine at a marriage ceremony.
• He rides triumphantly into town on a donkey while people wave palm leaves to honor him.
• He dies at Eastertime as a sacrifice for the sins of the world.
• After his death he descends to hell, then on the third day he rises from the dead and ascends to heaven in glory.
• His followers await his return as the judge during the Last Days.
• His death and resurrection are celebrated by a ritual meal of bread and wine, which symbolize his body and blood.
• Both Dionysus and Jesus celebrated a Last Supper with his 12 disciples before his death.
• Dionysus is described in Euripides' play The Bacchae as bringing a new religion to the people, being plotted against by the leaders, being arrested and appearing before the political ruler. Dionysus said to his captors "You know not what you are doing..," almost replicating Jesus' words at the cross. He was unjustly accused and executed. All of these themes are seen in the Gospels.

Parallels between the Christian gospels and Pagan mythology
ttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jesus_Mysteries

Mithra
Mithra is traditionally held to be born on 25th December, and his followers would worship on a Sunday.
Mithraism & early Christianity

We often hear about how many of the traditions, rites and symbols of modern day "Christian" holidays have their roots in paganism. Recently I came across the writing of historian Franz Cumont, who is consider by many to be the leading research authority on Roman Paganism. I have chosen this issue to begin with the story of Mithraism' birth because it coincides with the Yule/Christmas season. I often wondered why December 25th was chosen to celebrate the birth of Christ. If the accounts in the Bible are correct, the time of Jesus birth would have been closer to mid-summer, for this is when shepherds would have been "tending their flocks in the field" and the new lambs were born. Strange enough I found an ancient pagan religion, Mithraism, which dates back over 2,600 years that also celebrated the birth of their "savior" on that date.

Mithraism And Christianity

I didn't find anything related to virginal births with who you listed (Wiki-wise, at least). I did figure out that the painting in the local kebab shop was Zoroaster though, so there's one life-puzzle of mine solved.

List of virgin births - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Here you go good sir.

 

[Sententia]

...And what of Horus has anything to do with a "virgin" birth?

Some scholars believe that Horus was born of the Virgin Isis. (Replete with a virgin nativity scene and shepards etc.)

There are many correlations and its quite interesting research.