1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured What would the world look like without clergy?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by loverofhumanity, Feb 18, 2020.

  1. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Messages:
    7,360
    Ratings:
    +3,438
    Religion:
    Baha'i Faith
    Hi everyone!

    As a follow up to my previous thread I created this one because I think they are very closely connected, we each have been given eyes to see for ourselves and a mind to think with for ourselves so why do we need clergy?

    Haven’t we arrived at a place in history with the internet where we can investigate truth for ourselves?

    As opposed to Prophets, clergy have not been given any special powers by religious scriptures so why do people follow them and what if the world were free from clergy and we each independently investigated truth with our own minds?

    What do you think the world would look like without clergy?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  2. epronovost

    epronovost Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2019
    Messages:
    835
    Ratings:
    +699
    Religion:
    Atheist/non-religious
    Pretty much the same thing than now. There are thousand of religions, prophets and different clergy not counting all those believers who claim to belong to no specific churches. At best, a world without clergy is a world where the various superstition of religious people don't have a the same varnish of respectability and tradition. They just look like a weird, irrational type of idiosyncrasy.
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  3. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Messages:
    7,360
    Ratings:
    +3,438
    Religion:
    Baha'i Faith
    Would we be as easily led to go to war for instance the crusades and papal wars and so on. Isn’t there always some charismatic leader behind terrorist attacks?
     
  4. sun rise

    sun rise "Let there be peace and love among all"
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2014
    Messages:
    44,109
    Ratings:
    +17,779
    Religion:
    Love
    We have religions without clergy now. I'm defining clergy as those who stand between the laity and God.

    So I'd reframe the question to be: what would change if those religions that have clergy no longer had any.

    My answer is that in and of itself not much would change on the macro level. One reason I think this is that various Christian groups, many Muslim groups, Baha's and others don't have people who act as intermediaries. And their lives range all over the map.

    Instead I think we're evolving into another model. If I have a medical problem, I see a doctor. The doctor diagnoses and treats me according to his or her knowledge.

    Similarly, if I have a spiritual conundrum, I might seek out someone who is learned or holy to get their perspective on my problem. In the West, such people can be called "spiritual directors" rather than the word "guru" from India.

    Such people are not intermediaries but have a different role and one that to me is more suited to the world we're moving into.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  5. epronovost

    epronovost Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2019
    Messages:
    835
    Ratings:
    +699
    Religion:
    Atheist/non-religious
    Faith is more often than not a justification for war and a ralying point for the mass not a cause of it.
     
  6. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2013
    Messages:
    8,547
    Ratings:
    +2,295
    Religion:
    Judeo/Christian
    Could you define "clergy" please?

    If it also means "Apostles,, evangelists, pastors and teachers", then I would think we would be missing something since "prophets" were part of the list.

    You should, of course, investigate the truth as did the Bereans. But having a teacher etc means you can learn faster. Don't have to rediscover the truth. In some sense, you are receiving those gifts if you are looking at the internet because many of them are the very ones that are in that list.
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  7. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2017
    Messages:
    20,578
    Ratings:
    +15,166
    Religion:
    None
    Better.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium सच्चिदानन्द
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2016
    Messages:
    8,307
    Ratings:
    +10,215
    Religion:
    Advaita Vedanta (Hindu)
    As I see it, clergy is needed for those that need religion that are incapable of understanding their respective religion or its corresponding scripture in layman's terms, or those that are too lazy to do any research and learn for themselves.

    I think without clergy, the world would have even more religious zealots, fundamentalists, and extremists than it does today.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium सच्चिदानन्द
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2016
    Messages:
    8,307
    Ratings:
    +10,215
    Religion:
    Advaita Vedanta (Hindu)
    How so?

    Could you imagine a world of ignorant religious people running around beating people over the heads with their flawed and fragmented interpretations of scripture with no one to teach and guide them? Do you think we'd have more or less zealots than we do today without clergy?
     
  10. epronovost

    epronovost Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2019
    Messages:
    835
    Ratings:
    +699
    Religion:
    Atheist/non-religious
    Considering that the scripture themselves are more often than not filled with non-sense, calls to zealotry, exceptionalism and violence I'm not sure a ''correct interpretation of scripture'' makes for a better world. Let's also not forget that the clergy has also guided laymen into such path at various point in history. As we speak, the Pope is still calling for the oppression of women and sexual minorities as do most clerics of the abrahamic religions (and a good chunk of the clerics of Eastern faiths) and that's when they aren't calling for the extermination of various other ethnic and religious groups like we can see in Northern Pakistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, various country of the Sahel, Myanmar, etc. The problem isn't the clergy or the faithful really, the problem is the religious dogma and doctrine.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2017
    Messages:
    20,578
    Ratings:
    +15,166
    Religion:
    None
    Can you imagine a world with much less child abuse?

    There would be fewer zealots because there is no one identified with a church to indoctrinate those who are too young to know any better.

    Less calls for religious violence and oppression sounds good to me
     
  12. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium सच्चिदानन्द
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2016
    Messages:
    8,307
    Ratings:
    +10,215
    Religion:
    Advaita Vedanta (Hindu)
    Misogyny isn't exclusive to religion, nor is the call for extermination of ethic or religious groups. Nonetheless, your argument does have its merit.
     
  13. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium सच्चिदानन्द
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2016
    Messages:
    8,307
    Ratings:
    +10,215
    Religion:
    Advaita Vedanta (Hindu)
    Are you suggesting that there is a much child abuse per capita in the clergy than there is in the secular world? If so, do you have something to support this? Or do you have anything to support that child abuse would decline with the elimination of clergy?

    We're talking ITT about a world without clergy, not a world without religion.
     
  14. epronovost

    epronovost Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2019
    Messages:
    835
    Ratings:
    +699
    Religion:
    Atheist/non-religious
    Can you even have a religion without a clergy or at least without a priesthood of some sort?
     
  15. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2017
    Messages:
    20,578
    Ratings:
    +15,166
    Religion:
    None

    No,i am suggesting there would be less child abuse

    Support, all the cases (often swept under the carpet) where clergy have abused children would not have occured there were no clergy.

    Without clergy religion would not have the promotion i gets. Some of the crazy ideas driven by the clergty would not become religious mainstream.
     
  16. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium सच्चिदानन्द
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2016
    Messages:
    8,307
    Ratings:
    +10,215
    Religion:
    Advaita Vedanta (Hindu)
    You're suggesting that a man that abused a child did so because he was a clergy member? That if he was not a member of the clergy, that he would have have abused a child? Do you see how silly that argument is?

    Pure speculation.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium सच्चिदानन्द
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2016
    Messages:
    8,307
    Ratings:
    +10,215
    Religion:
    Advaita Vedanta (Hindu)
    Absolutely. There are several religions that exist without clergy or a priesthood.
     
  18. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2017
    Messages:
    20,578
    Ratings:
    +15,166
    Religion:
    None

    Please don't tell me what i suggest, making silly suggestions to suite yourself then projecting the silliness is not a good way to argue

    So i will tell you what i am suggesting. i am suggesting that there had been much child abuse by clergy

    And you are speculating about what s person would do if they were not clergy. For one, the opportunity would be much reduced
     
  19. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium सच्चिदानन्द
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2016
    Messages:
    8,307
    Ratings:
    +10,215
    Religion:
    Advaita Vedanta (Hindu)
    I was asking, not telling, hence the question mark, but I can see how the phrasing could be construed as a statement.

    There is also much child abuse by non-clergy. Do you have any statistics that suggest there is more child abuse per capita by clergy members than non-clergy members?

    Yes.

    A child abuser is a child abuser. Just as a thief is a thief. A thief will steal when an opportunity presents itself, just as a child abuser will abuse a child when the opportunity presents itself.

    It’s the person that capable of abusing a child, not whether or not they belong to a clergy.

    Child abuse, unfortunately, happens in all walks of life. You hear more about when it happens with a clergy member because there is more publicity.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  20. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2009
    Messages:
    43,501
    Ratings:
    +3,728
    we would see that occasional crazy guy go by ranting....
    the end is near!
    the end is near!
     
Loading...