What would be evidence that God exists?

[CG Didymus]

But it was the same God.

The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit? Or Vishnu? Or Quetzalcoatl?

 

[Trailblazer]

Reformed Jews are very much like Liberal Christians and don't take things very literal.

That is no doubt true.

 

[CG Didymus]

I do not rightly know, but I found this, and it seems to fit the Bab.

The Mahdi (Arabic: ٱلْمَهْدِيّ‎, ISO 233: al-mahdīy, meaning "the guided one") is an eschatological redeemer of Islam who, according to some Islamic traditions, will appear and rule for five, seven, nine, or nineteen years (according to differing interpretations)[1][2] before the Day of Judgment (yawm al-qiyamah, meaning "the Day of Resurrection")[3] and rid the world of evil.[4]

There is no direct reference to the Mahdi in the Quran,[5] only in the hadith (the reports and traditions of Muhammad's teachings collected after his death). In most traditions, the Mahdi will arrive with 'Isa (Jesus) to defeat Al-Masih ad-Dajjal ("the false Messiah", or Antichrist).[6] Although the concept of a Mahdi is not an essential doctrine in Sunni Islam, it is popular among both Sunni and Shia Muslims.[7] Both agree that he will rule over Muslims and establish justice; however, they differ extensively on his attributes and status.

Mahdi - Wikipedia

Same problems with what the Messiah is supposed to do. It doesn't fit perfectly with anybody. The world is still filled with evil. No one has ruled with justice over anybody. Will arrive with Jesus? Okay, if we switch out Jesus for Baha'u'llah, but who was the false Messiah/Antichrist? Not in the Quran? So we are to accept the Hadith as the true words of God?

 

[Trailblazer]

You mean interpretations like.... The Ishmael, Isaac? Not a contradiction because "originally" the Bible did have Ishmael, but the Jews changed it to Isaac. The Resurrection? Not a contradiction because Jesus rose "spiritually" not physically. The disciples and the gospel writer's knew that the resurrection was only symbolic, even though the story was told and written down as having really happened. Later Christians then misunderstood and foolishly thought that Jesus had actually come back to life physically. Jesus and healings. People were "spiritually" blind and he healed their spirits so they could see. Lazarus was "spiritually" dead and Jesus raised him up into "spiritual" life.

Imo, as long as you try to reconcile all the contradictions in the Bible, you will just keep going round and round and you will never find your way out of the woods.

 

[Trailblazer]

The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit? Or Vishnu? Or Quetzalcoatl?

No, the one true God Baha'u'llah revealed and described:

“Regard thou the one true God as One Who is apart from, and immeasurably exalted above, all created things. The whole universe reflecteth His glory, while He is Himself independent of, and transcendeth His creatures. This is the true meaning of Divine unity. He Who is the Eternal Truth is the one Power Who exerciseth undisputed sovereignty over the world of being, Whose image is reflected in the mirror of the entire creation. All existence is dependent upon Him, and from Him is derived the source of the sustenance of all things. This is what is meant by Divine unity; this is its fundamental principle.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 167

 

[Trailblazer]

Same problems with what the Messiah is supposed to do. It doesn't fit perfectly with anybody.

If you are waiting for perfect you will never recognize the Messiah. The logical problem of course is that no human is perfect so no human can perfectly interpret the prophecies for the Messiah, although some people believe they can. That is the epitome of ego.

Case closed.

 

[Trailblazer]

Will arrive with Jesus? Okay, if we switch out Jesus for Baha'u'llah, but who was the false Messiah/Antichrist? Not in the Quran? So we are to accept the Hadith as the true words of God?

They might have truth in them, but I would not accept them as 'true words of God.'

 

[Aupmanyav]

That all depends upon what you consider evidence.
No, it is not the same for more than one reason, but for starters this man did not fulfill the prophecies for the Mahdi.
He was just warning would-be prophets what God would do if they laid claim to prophethood.
Baha'u'llah was born in Iran.

Yeah, your standard of evidence is different from mine. For you it is the word of Bahaollah, his son or his great-grandson. It is not enough for me or any other atheist - or any follower of Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Buddhism, Christianity, Islam, LDS, etc.
Read about Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. He fulfilled all prophecies for a Mahdi. You just know his name (that too because I mention it). You do not know anything more about him.
What if Bahaollah himself was a pretender?
I was not talking about birth of Bahaollah, I know all about that. I am saying that your Allah seems to have been born in England in middle-ages, because his AllahSpeak is like that - taketh, doeth, bringeth, sendeth, *******.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yeah, your standard of evidence is different from mine. For you it is the word of Bahaollah, his son or his great-grandson.

No, I never said that the evidence is the word of Baha'u'llah, his son or his great-grandson.
I have said it 100 times if I have said it once that the claim of a Messenger to be a Messenger is not evidence at all, because that would be circular reasoning.

 

[rational experiences]

Science is studying conscious identification as a thesis about where did we come from, for a machine aligned reaction against us all. As the statement ANTI.

Once they owned the ANTI of the CH gases, as a science statement. The only reason a human being quotes that they owned those gases, for historically the presence of the cold CH gases in mass supported life not being sacrificed/irradiated.

The only reason it was explained as a human life support. Not and nor was it ever quoted to have created human life.

The creation of human life is just a thought upon thesis as stated by a self present, living naturally human being in a natural history of spatial evolution.

What the mind/brain and researcher/theist quotes about self. Yet we do not own that natural history, the natural history belongs to huge large mass bodies. We are not a huge large mass body.

A human is living as a human, a human quotes, I was not living as a Messenger. I gained mind/aware/spiritual and conscious human advice about the status Messenger/conscious self reminder, which involves a huge amount of information and reasoning as to why a human was reminded that the planet as first entity O stone sealed owned their life support.

For the theme in science relativity said rationally that the planet once was sealed/fused in spatial cosmological formation as a stone mass. As a discussion about the first ONE mass body that supports human existence.

For when you have to own an argument of human against human, then you also are meant to quote why you argue. For we are all equal in life presence. The reason you are arguing is because science, the machine occult condition broke the seal of Planet Earth held fused body and allowed radiation mass to be released out of it.

Now as the heavenly body already naturally existed in its coldest body form....and you personally as the science human self was living inside of that massed body, what do you personally think as just a human thinking would have happened to your life, as the only reason you argue against your own equal human self....as an extended family member. Seeing no human can be born to the 2 same parents, yet our parents, human are all the same human?

The answer is, science, the condition taught to activate/conjure what we taught was an occult/phenomena condition. To be personally life sacrificed in unnatural conditions due to machines.

Now in the past machine in Temple transmitted to machine in Temple that transmitted in a circuit with the machine/cause pyramid.

Then humans quote, our life was ground sacrificed in a released fission reaction where IMAGE then formed. IMAGE is and owns recording of animate and inanimate objects. So is the IMAGE just owned by man?

The answer is no. But categorically a man/male in science had to thesis reason why his own male/man life got sacrificed to write a documented thesis/data collection as the story teller? As the correct answer to a human man/male on behalf of human man/male and men.

Machine today communicates recorded image and recorded voice from machine to machine for machine. So we know machines own it, machines caused it...and that we got attacked by the conditions what the machine caused also.

But do not own what the machine to machine was communicating for machines, we simply were harmed by the machine. For the machine was never God...a sealed body of mass that was not harmfully constantly irradiating us. Just as the heavenly gas burning irradiating event was cooled by the spatial vacuum that dealt with it.

Change the mass of fusion that you all live on, then the planet as first ONE entity, the first God status in scientific thesis, attacks you. Just as we said...for the heavenly vacuum cannot keep us safe from planetary radiation mass releases.

Evidence of God as told by the human storyteller. Once a long time ago, a very spiritual human being male adult Father/group of males invented and agreed upon human built and human controlled machines. The machine owned no status of self volition. So even though I pretended it was like planet Earth natural history......the machine could cause no harm.

I caused the harm my own human self as the controller/activator, machine user my own human self, falsifying the machine information in a fake God theory...for the Earth only supported our highest owned natural life, HEALTHY.

I removed my human ownership of first One O God, the stone planet support by constantly communicating by my owned control human choice transmitted radio wave/radiation conditions that did not support life health or continuance of life health.

The machine conditions changed the natural history of a natural atmosphere and then the heavenly gases changed x mass conditions then attacked me. So I quote in conscious preaching, natural attacked me. But not by its volition, so I also quote and so the One God O first God is not evil....by self intentions, I chose to do evil to my own self, for I human science self changed the seal of God the first body of. The mass which I used to build an artificial machine.

How a science argument exists, that quotes the first and One God O is not evil, the human science self chose evil.

 

[Aupmanyav]

No, I never said that the evidence is the word of Baha'u'llah, his son or his great-grandson.
I have said it 100 times if I have said it once that the claim of a Messenger to be a Messenger is not evidence at all, because that would be circular reasoning.

Then, what else is there? Bahaollah perhaps had a life without much blame except his treatment of his family members all of whom he ousted from his group to have complete control like a dictator. And he mouthed platitudes (which thousands of people do in the world, including all politicians, all Hindu swamis and swaminis).

 

[Trailblazer]

Then, what else is there? Bahaollah perhaps had a life without much blame except his treatment of his family members all of whom he ousted from his group to have complete control like a dictator.

His family members were vicious Covenant-breakers and they deserved what they got.

And he mouthed platitudes (which thousands of people do in the world, including all politicians, all Hindu swamis and swaminis).

If you do not like what he wrote, you do not like it, but I do.
We all have different tastes.

 

[Aupmanyav]

And he mouthed platitudes (which thousands of people do in the world, including all politicians, all Hindu swamis and swaminis).

Even those, who were later found to be charlatans and are now serving their jail sentences.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

But what if I say he made the claim and I believe it because he said so?

I'ld call that gullibility.

 

[CG Didymus]

Imo, as long as you try to reconcile all the contradictions in the Bible, you will just keep going round and round and you will never find your way out of the woods.

Christians have their problems reconciling their own contradictions just within the NT, plus trying to include the Jewish Bible. Baha'is have to do it with all the Scriptures of all the major religions. When Baha'is tell Christians that Jesus is dead and didn't rise physically from the dead... When they tell Jews that their Messiah has come several times over in Jesus, Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah.... When they tell Hindus that there is no reincarnation and that Krishna is not an incarnation... and just by telling all religions that the promised one they've been waiting for has come, then, already, you're going to be going round and round.

And what is going to be the usual question asked of Baha'is? What proof do you have? And that goes round and round with... "We have evidence, but no proof." "It's proof to me, but you won't accept that proof" "He's proven it by fulfilling all the prophecies" When questioned about the details of the prophecy, we get, "Well prophecies are vague, but there is other proof, so we are not dependent on the prophecies".

Yes, it goes round and round. But that's because the Baha'i answers to things like the contradictions are all that good. Baha'is can't show when the switch from Ishmael to Isaac happened. They can't explain why the tomb of Jesus was empty. Baha'is just say that's what we belief, because that is what Baha'u'llah and the Baha'i Faith teaches.

 

[CG Didymus]

No, the one true God Baha'u'llah revealed and described:

“Regard thou the one true God as One Who is apart from, and immeasurably exalted above, all created things. The whole universe reflecteth His glory, while He is Himself independent of, and transcendeth His creatures. This is the true meaning of Divine unity. He Who is the Eternal Truth is the one Power Who exerciseth undisputed sovereignty over the world of being, Whose image is reflected in the mirror of the entire creation. All existence is dependent upon Him, and from Him is derived the source of the sustenance of all things. This is what is meant by Divine unity; this is its fundamental principle.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 167

Yes, but not all "messenger" revealed and described God the same way. And, I don't know, but some people have said that Buddha didn't talk about a God. To that, some Baha'is used the "Well, originally... he did. But those teachings were lost." And how would he know that? And the Good and Evil Gods of Zoroastrianism? And the multiple Gods of Hinduism? That's why I think it is very possible that each culture developed their own religious beliefs and their own Gods. With the Baha'i Faith, you'd still have to believe something like that to explain the Gods of people like the Greeks and Romans and the many tribal beliefs about Gods and Goddesses... like Pele the volcano and fire Goddess of Hawaii. Did she create the Hawaiian Islands? No, we wouldn't believe that. But, we believe the God of Israel created the Earth and the first humans? Actually, we don't do we. Baha'is believe that is the real God, but that he didn't really do things as written in the Bible version of creation.

 

[Trailblazer]

Baha'is just say that's what we belief, because that is what Baha'u'llah and the Baha'i Faith teaches.

Correct, just as Christians say that is what we believe because that is what Jesus and Christianity teaches.

Baha'ullah told us what the evidence is. He did not mention looking at any other religions or their prophecies or their scriptures.

Below is what Baha’u’llah wrote about proof and evidence. More specifically, Baha'u'llah enjoined us to look at His own Self (His character), His Revelation (His works, which can be seen in Baha'i history), and His words (His Writings).

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106

Do other religions rely upon other religions in order to believe that their religions are true?
No they don't so why should Baha'is? Why the double standard?

The Revelation of Baha'u'llah is complete in itself, it does not depend upon any religions of the past just because it refers to them. If people want to know how the Baha'i Faith ties in with the religions of the past, that is on them, but it is unnecessary to know that in order to recognize Baha'u'llah as a Manifestation of God.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, but not all "messenger" revealed and described God the same way. And, I don't know, but some people have said that Buddha didn't talk about a God. To that, some Baha'is used the "Well, originally... he did. But those teachings were lost." And how would he know that? And the Good and Evil Gods of Zoroastrianism? And the multiple Gods of Hinduism? That's why I think it is very possible that each culture developed their own religious beliefs and their own Gods. With the Baha'i Faith, you'd still have to believe something like that to explain the Gods of people like the Greeks and Romans and the many tribal beliefs about Gods and Goddesses... like Pele the volcano and fire Goddess of Hawaii. Did she create the Hawaiian Islands? No, we wouldn't believe that. But, we believe the God of Israel created the Earth and the first humans? Actually, we don't do we. Baha'is believe that is the real God, but that he didn't really do things as written in the Bible version of creation.

When I evaluated the Baha'i Faith I evaluated it on its own merit. No doubt that is why I became a Baha'i.

Why does it matter what all the past religions taught? You will never reconcile all the older religions because none of them represent what was originally revealed to the Messengers of those religions. They have all been changed and corrupted by man.

“This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal. Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination. Thou dost witness how most of the commentaries and interpretations of the words of God, now current amongst men, are devoid of truth. Their falsity hath, in some cases, been exposed when the intervening veils were rent asunder. They themselves have acknowledged their failure in apprehending the meaning of any of the words of God.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 171-172

 

[CG Didymus]

If you are waiting for perfect you will never recognize the Messiah. The logical problem of course is that no human is perfect so no human can perfectly interpret the prophecies for the Messiah, although some people believe they can. That is the epitome of ego.

Case closed.

Why do you say, "Case closed"? You talk about some of us being "arrogant" or the "epitome" of ego.

By not "perfectly" fulfilling prophecies, I mean some of them are too vague and/or contrived. And, allegedly, we do have someone who is perfect and able to "unseal" the books and reveal their true meanings, Baha'u'llah. Did he explain how he fulfilled the prophecies of all the religions? No. At best, the Baha'is have tried to explain the Book of Revelation and Bible prophecies, but not very well.

Abdul Baha's explanations of a couple of chapters in Revelation aren't that good. And, Bill Sears? Why would his be better than Abdul Baha's? It's just his very biased toward the Baha'i Faith explanations. An earthquake in Portugal years before The Bab declared his mission? Do you really accept that as a prophecy fulfillment? But you've put that out there as if we are supposed to. It was thousands of miles away and decades before? Same with the meteor shower and "dark" day. These are far from "perfect" fulfillments.

 

[CG Didymus]

I'ld call that gullibility.

I was around the Baha'i Faith for three years in the early 70's. They told me "When he the spirit of truth comes, he will lead you to all truth." They said Baha'u'llah is that spirit of truth promised by Jesus. I believed them. I trusted them. They told me that The Bab declared his mission in 1844. In that same year William Miller and his followers were waiting for Jesus to return, because of his calculations of prophecies in Daniel. I believed them. They told me all religions are one. That God sent different messengers at different times and in different places, but the essential message was always one. All these religions and their messengers were a progression, and just like in grade school, we go from one grade to another... ever advancing... ever learning. And now, we have a new messenger. Now is the time for all the world to unite as one.

What's not to like? I believed them. Until Jesus Freaks told me a completely different story. Until Hare Krishnas told me yet another story. Until Mormons told me another story. Until one Christian group told me a different story from another Christian group. I happened by a Jewish bookstore and asked, "The Baha'is and Christians say they all evolved from you guys. What do you say?" You guessed it... Yet another story.

So not to be gullible, I think we have to ask, "What is your proof?"