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What took place that caused the faithful angels to lose their free will?

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
I'm a little confused on the time line. In Job ,Satan was allowed in the presence of God. So at that point he wasn't cast out. Has he been cast out yet, or does he still roam the earth and report back to God as in Job? Is it possible that him getting cast out with 1/3 of the angels is a future event? Honest question. I don't really have an opinion as I have heard it presented both ways.
Good questions... can't say I have all the answers in as much as the Bible isn't really about angels but about man and doesn't really address all these questions.

It is my viewpoint that it was after Jesus poured His blood in the Heavenly Temple that now prevents Satan from the right to approach God's presence. I don't believe he can "report back to God" like before.

Yes... he still roams the earth. (That I am sure of)
 

DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
I'm a little confused on the time line. In Job ,Satan was allowed in the presence of God. So at that point he wasn't cast out. Has he been cast out yet, or does he still roam the earth and report back to God as in Job? Is it possible that him getting cast out with 1/3 of the angels is a future event? Honest question. I don't really have an opinion as I have heard it presented both ways.

I'm not sure but I think he had already been cast out at that point. I believe Job is a precursor to let us know who Satan is and what he spends his time doing. He is constantly asking God to allow him to tempt us to the maximum God will allow, I think. Well, that's my thoughts.
 

DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
I don't accept the Christian viewpoint. Angels are like the arms and legs of God with no separate existence. It's only humans who have the sense that they are separate.

Spiritually speaking that could be the way it is. The truth is that we just don't know and won't know until we get there to see for ourselves.
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
Interesting... and then you ask why you are confused?

You open the door to the adversary and wonder why he is able to steal, kill and destroy in your life?

If you believe it is false... then it will be false for you! But to those who believe it will be the power of God for rescuing.
I can't believe it's true unless God gives me the grace to believe it's true. Whether or not I believe it's true is up to God.

As of now I tried with all my heart to believe that the word of God was true. I tested it plenty of times and it turned out to be false!
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
So, originally Angels had free will because the third of them were allowed to Rebel and Fall Away.

At what point did the good angels lose Free Will and become essentially robots that never disobey?

I firmly believe that the fall of the Angels was part of God's plan, if such a story is at all true. To say otherwise, is to suggest that God is not omnipotent.

God knew it well in advance before he ever created an angel if the angel was going to rebel against him or be faithful to him. If he didn't want enemies, he would have never made them.

So what exactly happened after the fall, that caused the faithful angels to lose their free will? Did God just place some sort of a blessing over them that they would never desire to disobey?

If God didn't want the angels to rebel, why didn't he just make angels that way to begin with?

If God is omnipotent, it's obvious that he wanted enemies and he wanted Satan and the fallen angels to fall!

It makes the story a lot more entertaining that way. I'm sure after having existed for all eternity, (trillions and trillions of years of existing) God found it rather boring without all the drama.



Free will is an illusion.

If the angels were completely obedient, it's predetermined that they were capable of doing so.

If I agree with you 100% of the time for an entire day, what does that mean? Realistically, it isn't possible. We are different. We aren't twins. We aren't even clones. We don't inhabit the same space. We find differences.


Capability is ultimately God's.

We constructed words to describe ultimate capability. We debate about what that is (if it is one or many), if it exists, or if it should be called God (omnipotence paradoxes).


We know that the universe expanded from a single point. Not many points. A single all-encompassing point, before spacetime. Technically, by definition, that is God.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
So, originally Angels had free will because the third of them were allowed to Rebel and Fall Away.

At what point did the good angels lose Free Will and become essentially robots that never disobey?

I firmly believe that the fall of the Angels was part of God's plan, if such a story is at all true. To say otherwise, is to suggest that God is not omnipotent.

God knew it well in advance before he ever created an angel if the angel was going to rebel against him or be faithful to him. If he didn't want enemies, he would have never made them.

So what exactly happened after the fall, that caused the faithful angels to lose their free will? Did God just place some sort of a blessing over them that they would never desire to disobey?

If God didn't want the angels to rebel, why didn't he just make angels that way to begin with?

If God is omnipotent, it's obvious that he wanted enemies and he wanted Satan and the fallen angels to fall!

It makes the story a lot more entertaining that way. I'm sure after having existed for all eternity, (trillions and trillions of years of existing) God found it rather boring without all the drama.
It just goes to show you that no matter how hard people try to write things and claim they are true, you will always end up with things like this.

Of course if you're not arguing the validity, the story would suggest that sin was there at the beginning, or God commanded his angels to sin against him.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
I can't believe it's true unless God gives me the grace to believe it's true. Whether or not I believe it's true is up to God.

As of now I tried with all my heart to believe that the word of God was true. I tested it plenty of times and it turned out to be false!
No... it isn't up to God.

The Israelites were going into the promised land. God had already provided the promises. It was THEM who decided not to believe. The NEXT generation decided to believe.

Sorry, but we can't have a victim mentality. As free will agents, it is we who decide as it was written twice "Choose ye now whom you will serve" and again "Before you is life and death, choose"

We do the choosing whether to believe God or not.
 

Father

Devourer of Truth
So, originally Angels had free will because the third of them were allowed to Rebel and Fall Away.

At what point did the good angels lose Free Will and become essentially robots that never disobey?

I firmly believe that the fall of the Angels was part of God's plan, if such a story is at all true. To say otherwise, is to suggest that God is not omnipotent.

God knew it well in advance before he ever created an angel if the angel was going to rebel against him or be faithful to him. If he didn't want enemies, he would have never made them.

So what exactly happened after the fall, that caused the faithful angels to lose their free will? Did God just place some sort of a blessing over them that they would never desire to disobey?

If God didn't want the angels to rebel, why didn't he just make angels that way to begin with?

If God is omnipotent, it's obvious that he wanted enemies and he wanted Satan and the fallen angels to fall!

It makes the story a lot more entertaining that way. I'm sure after having existed for all eternity, (trillions and trillions of years of existing) God found it rather boring without all the drama.

hmm.. well who says angels did not fall after the fall? different texts list different Angels falling for different reasons. like the Watchers. who fell way after this supposed rebellion.
not Abrahamic here but from all the demonic texts gathered by monks on their time off, I've read, it seems they fall quite a bit. less now but than again I don't recall new angels being born, they don't really have kids with each other. and I don't recall anything saying God pops them into existence when one falls so it can be assumed all that will fall have fallen leaving only the blindly obedient though
not just angels. I recall some of the Demons of Hell are also Pagan Gods like Baal
 

Muslim-UK

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Angels do not have Free Will. If we saw a Angel with our own eyes we would be struck with awe, they are perfect beings, created to worship GOD perfectly. Just as the Kaaba is/was the central point on Earth and human flock their in the Millions to offer worship to GOD 24/7 so too is there a Kaaba in space where 70,000 Angels go to pray once, and never return, it always has 70,000 of them there praying.

The sound of their prayer, vibrations carry through the Universe:

Watch from 2:05

So then if the Bible account of 'fallen' Angels is correct, then what are they really?

JINN

 

Grandliseur

Well-Known Member
So, originally Angels had free will because the third of them were allowed to Rebel and Fall Away.

At what point did the good angels lose Free Will and become essentially robots that never disobey?

I firmly believe that the fall of the Angels was part of God's plan, if such a story is at all true. To say otherwise, is to suggest that God is not omnipotent.

God knew it well in advance before he ever created an angel if the angel was going to rebel against him or be faithful to him. If he didn't want enemies, he would have never made them.

So what exactly happened after the fall, that caused the faithful angels to lose their free will? Did God just place some sort of a blessing over them that they would never desire to disobey?

If God didn't want the angels to rebel, why didn't he just make angels that way to begin with?

If God is omnipotent, it's obvious that he wanted enemies and he wanted Satan and the fallen angels to fall!

It makes the story a lot more entertaining that way. I'm sure after having existed for all eternity, (trillions and trillions of years of existing) God found it rather boring without all the drama.
You misunderstand what it is to be perfect and yet have free will. Even imperfect humans can come to the point where they no longer sin though having free will. E.g. Abraham's faith is said to have been perfected; yet, he was imperfect until death.

John teaches this:
1 John 3:
3 And every one that has this hope in him purifies himself, even as *he* is pure.
4 Every one that practises sin practises also lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. 5 And ye know that *he* has been manifested that he might take away our sins; and in him sin is not. 6 Whoever abides in him, does not sin: whoever sins, has not seen him or known him. 7 Children, let no man lead you astray; he that practises righteousness is righteous, even as *he* is righteous. 8 He that practises sin is of the devil; for from the beginning the devil sins. To this end the Son of God has been manifested, that he might undo the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been begotten of God does not practise sin, because his seed abides in him, and he cannot sin, because he has been begotten of God.

In this then we find the secret. Those who want to be God's servants pursue purity, obedience to God in all things:

1 John 2:3 And hereby we know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that says, I know him, and does not keep his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him verily the love of God is perfected. Hereby we know that we are in him. 6 He that says he abides in him ought, even as *he* walked, himself also so to walk.
This is true for humans and angels. Once a person has been tested through trial to see if s/he remains obedient - there comes a point where the testing produces a person that no longer can sin. This person can no longer sin - Why? Because s/he chooses not to. That person's guiding principles in life now prevents him or her from ever e.g. committing murder, adultery, idolatry, etc.

Perhaps a few alcoholics may be used as an example, whether poor or good. If an alcoholic knows that drinking will begin a drunken bout, then that person may (a few) learn that they must never touch the stuff again, and they don't. Thus, they avoid the life that comes with being an alcoholic of uncontrolled drinking, illness, loss of family and money.


 

Electra

Active Member
Sidenote opinion: Lucifer saw their creation, and could not stand seeing pain without being able to be the same density to help physically bring creation back towards the light. Therefore went against the 'norm' of procedures and 'fell' in density, Lucifer is with us now, there was no 'war' in heaven with weapons just of minds, and it was not 'bad' or 'good'.
Therefore we are all living as 'normal humans' for many of lifetimes, the others in the heavenly host are not aloud to give us clues after each life time we have to figure it out over and over and over untill we return, most of us have vowed to stay untill the creation has completed her cycle.
(even though others are not aloud to give us clues, as angels are in no-time, our already completed self is there to give us clues ;p )


*cough*
 

Dantedeven

Member
God is always stronger than Satan and satan knows it but shall never say so. All that Satan wants is pleasure. And he gets that by showing mankind that he is more powerful. Better, stronger and richer. Satan only instructs on manipulation and may only instill confusion, paranoia etc. He knows what fear is and abuses it, for Satan knows only fear. Like almost any criminal, Satan too will be locked up. Satan knows man's greatest enemy: Desire. If you believe in the garden, that's where he learned that fact. Satan is the manifestation of pride. In the Qur'an, The jinn Iblees refused to bow before a statue of adam. Saying that he is better than Adam.
 
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