What took place that caused the faithful angels to lose their free will?

[Spiderman]

So, originally Angels had free will because the third of them were allowed to Rebel and Fall Away.

At what point did the good angels lose Free Will and become essentially robots that never disobey?

I firmly believe that the fall of the Angels was part of God's plan, if such a story is at all true. To say otherwise, is to suggest that God is not omnipotent.

God knew it well in advance before he ever created an angel if the angel was going to rebel against him or be faithful to him. If he didn't want enemies, he would have never made them.

So what exactly happened after the fall, that caused the faithful angels to lose their free will? Did God just place some sort of a blessing over them that they would never desire to disobey?

If God didn't want the angels to rebel, why didn't he just make angels that way to begin with?

If God is omnipotent, it's obvious that he wanted enemies and he wanted Satan and the fallen angels to fall!

It makes the story a lot more entertaining that way. I'm sure after having existed for all eternity, (trillions and trillions of years of existing) God found it rather boring without all the drama.

 

[Sanzbir]

I think that is a silly assumption to make that just because you know how something will end that it is your direct will that it will happen and that you are the cause and controller of that event.

Take the most recent movie you have watched. Watch it again. From the beginning of the movie, you know how it will end. Does this mean you are controlling the movie so that it ends that way??

A person having foreknowledge of future events does not directly mean that person is the causal factor of those future events.

 

[Spiderman]

I think that is a silly assumption to make that just because you know how something will end that it is your direct will that it will happen and that you are the cause and controller of that event.

Take the most recent movie you have watched. Watch it again. From the beginning of the movie, you know how it will end. Does this mean you are controlling the movie so that it ends that way??

A person having foreknowledge of future events does not directly mean that person is the causal factor of those future events.

If God wanted all angels to obey him, he could have easily made only the angels that would obey him. He could have also purged their hearts of Pride and sinful inclination so they wouldn't fall. God is in control.

It isn't the same as watching a movie, because God is in control of what can happen. I can't control what happens in a movie.

 

[Sanzbir]

If God wanted all angels to obey him, he could have easily made only the angels that would obey him. He could have also purged their hearts of Pride and sinful inclination so they wouldn't fall. God is in control.

It isn't the same as watching a movie, because God is in control of what can happen. I can't control what happens in a movie.

In control if He wants to be. Just because a person can do something doesn't mean they will do it. What is your rational for thinking that God would want to control angels to such a degree that any and all rebellion must have been as a result of His intentions and design?? What if God simply wanted them to have free will and that is it??

 

[Brickjectivity]

So, originally Angels had free will because the third of them were allowed to Rebel and Fall Away.

At what point did the good angels lose Free Will and become essentially robots that never disobey?

I firmly believe that the fall of the Angels was part of God's plan, if such a story is at all true. To say otherwise, is to suggest that God is not omnipotent.

God knew it well in advance before he ever created an angel if the angel was going to rebel against him or be faithful to him. If he didn't want enemies, he would have never made them.

So what exactly happened after the fall, that caused the faithful angels to lose their free will? Did God just place some sort of a blessing over them that they would never desire to disobey?

If God didn't want the angels to rebel, why didn't he just make angels that way to begin with?

If God is omnipotent, it's obvious that he wanted enemies and he wanted Satan and the fallen angels to fall!

It makes the story a lot more entertaining that way. I'm sure after having existed for all eternity, (trillions and trillions of years of existing) God found it rather boring without all the drama.

I am not saying this with 100% certainty, however the stylistic descriptions in Revelation says 1/3 of the 'Stars' fall to the ground and does not use the term 'Angels'. If we go with symbolic consistency, the stars are people who are important in some way, probably Christians who fall away from the task. Jude 1:13 refers to some wayward Christians as 'Wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever'. Also this is probably meant to be interpreted as a regular thing rather than a one time thing. Revelation 12:9 describes the dragon this way "that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him," strongly suggesting that his angels are the aforementioned stars which are people. It makes a lot of sense to me, and remember that Christians do fall away sometimes. I think what is difficult is that we are not used to thinking of Christians as particularly holy or bright and shining people, but the writer does think of them this way. Think of thousands of Mother Theresa's or thousands of selfless workers busily working, and some of them fail because of this dragon. 1/3 are felled by just one swoop of the dragon's tail, but the dragon is hurled down to Earth. This probably is talking about how the church fights against the evil human governments and pagan temples and drives them down out of power (heaven), but then they do not like it. They do not like being out of power, and so they then attack the woman 'Judaism' which has given birth to the child 'Christ'. The dragon then spews a river from its mouth (I think this is probably accusations and political intrigue) to swallow the woman and child, but the ground opens and swallows the river. Many wonder what the ground is here. Some say it is the Jewish people helping the Christians, and some say it is something else. I say it is the principle that undeserved accusations do not stick. Proverbs 26:2 says "...an undeserved curse does not come to rest" and what are curses if not accusations? Keep in mind when this is written that Christianity and the church have a very seditious History in the Roman Empire and have basically remade the culture and have forced politicians to take notice along with the various temples and other pagan priests who still remain. Christianity has driven them out of power, and they do not like it. The dragon is driven from the heavens, but it takes some of the Christians with it on its way down.

 

[DavidFirth]

Basically, the way I understand it, Lucifer decided that he ought to be worshiped like God is. God disagreed so Lucifer rebelled against Him. Lucifer deceived 1/3 of the angels and caused them to follow him.

Lucifer was then cast out of heaven, his name was changed to Satan, and all his fallen angels were cast out with him. They now dwell here tempting mankind to do evil and oppose God.

 

[Spiderman]

In control if He wants to be. Just because a person can do something doesn't mean they will do it. What is your rational for thinking that God would want to control angels to such a degree that any and all rebellion must have been as a result of His intentions and design?? What if God simply wanted them to have free will and that is it??

I think there had to be a flaw in making the rebellious angels. That's the only way I can fathom why one Angel would be inclined to Pride and sin and the other angel inclined to Holiness and obedience. Isaiah 45:7 says that God is the creator of evil. If God knew they would rebel before he made them, he knew how to correct the problem and chose not to, which means he wanted it ...it was part of his plan.

 

[osgart]

I think there had to be a flaw in making the rebellious angels. That's the only way I can fathom why one Angel would be inclined to Pride and sin and the other angel inclined to Holiness and obedience. Isaiah 45:7 says that God is the creator of evil. If God knew they would rebel before he made them, he knew how to correct the problem and chose not to, which means he wanted it ...it was part of his plan.

so long as a being can choose their own nature from a state of neutrality, there will always be good and evil choices of am heart.

I suppose God could have made a destined goodness of life only to come alive in all life made, I mean why start from neutrality. create life that is only life, and not from neutrality to choose evil.

 

[Sanzbir]

I think there had to be a flaw in making the rebellious angels. That's the only way I can fathom why one Angel would be inclined to Pride and sin and the other angel inclined to Holiness and obedience. Isaiah 45:7 says that God is the creator of evil. If God knew they would rebel before he made them, he knew how to correct the problem and chose not to, which means he wanted it ...it was part of his plan.

How do you know freedom wasn't the whole of the plan??

 

[Spiderman]

Back to the original question. How did Angels lose their free will? It is taught that good Angels cannot fall or disobey God... What cause them to lose their free will?

 

[DavidFirth]

Back to the original question. How did Angels lose their free will? It is taught that good Angels cannot fall or disobey God... What cause them to lose their free will?

They gave up their will to God of their own free will. This is what Christians are also called on to do.

It is easy to accept that God's will is always what's best for us but it is truly tough to give up free will.

 

[Spiderman]

They gave up their will to God of their own free will. This is what Christians are also called on to do.

It is easy to accept that God's will is always what's best for us but it is truly tough to give up free will.

I want to give up my will to serve God and it's extremely frustrating, cuz God won't take it away and show me what his will is.... God refuses to provide instruction, making him responsible for the mistakes I fall into

 

[DavidFirth]

I want to give up my will to serve God and it's extremely frustrating, cuz God won't take it away and show me what his will is.... God refuses to provide instruction, making him responsible for the mistakes I fall into

God isn't going to take your free will away from you. You have to surrender it to Him. You have to give it to Him or like many others do, try your best to do so. Pray and try to walk in the Spirit. The Spirit's qualities are easy to memorize: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, humility and self control. Not easy at all, else everyone would try to do it.

 

[Kenny]

So, originally Angels had free will because the third of them were allowed to Rebel and Fall Away.

At what point did the good angels lose Free Will and become essentially robots that never disobey?

I firmly believe that the fall of the Angels was part of God's plan, if such a story is at all true. To say otherwise, is to suggest that God is not omnipotent.

God knew it well in advance before he ever created an angel if the angel was going to rebel against him or be faithful to him. If he didn't want enemies, he would have never made them.

So what exactly happened after the fall, that caused the faithful angels to lose their free will? Did God just place some sort of a blessing over them that they would never desire to disobey?

If God didn't want the angels to rebel, why didn't he just make angels that way to begin with?

If God is omnipotent, it's obvious that he wanted enemies and he wanted Satan and the fallen angels to fall!

It makes the story a lot more entertaining that way. I'm sure after having existed for all eternity, (trillions and trillions of years of existing) God found it rather boring without all the drama.

This has multiple foundational positions that are questionable.

1) You suggest that if you choose right you then loose free will and become robots. No... they just made a quality decision and they are sticking to it.
2) You are suggesting that if someone knew that one of their grandchildren was going to be evil, you should never have children.
3) You are suggesting that God should have started by making robots
4) You are quite bold in mocking God.

 

[sun rise]

I don't accept the Christian viewpoint. Angels are like the arms and legs of God with no separate existence. It's only humans who have the sense that they are separate.

 

[Spiderman]

This has multiple foundational positions that are questionable.

1) You suggest that if you choose right you then loose free will and become robots. No... they just made a quality decision and they are sticking to it.
2) You are suggesting that if someone knew that one of their grandchildren was going to be evil, you should never have children.
3) You are suggesting that God should have started by making robots
4) You are quite bold in mocking God.

I'm suggesting that some of those angels were inclined towards sin and rebellion and some of them were inclined to be faithful. In the end it is God who is responsible that Wicked desires entered the minds of some of the Angels. Not all Angels were made the same, why did Pride enter the mind of one Angel and not the other? It's cuz that angel was predisposed towards Pride.

Some people are just predisposed to a certain Vice. It isn't their choice it's just how they're made and their makeup

 

[Kenny]

I'm suggesting that some of those angels were inclined towards sin and rebellion and some of them were inclined to be faithful. In the end it is God who is responsible that Wicked desires entered the minds of some of the Angels. Not all Angels were made the same, why did Pride enter the mind of one Angel and not the other? It's cuz that angel was predisposed towards Pride.

Some people are just predisposed to a certain Vice. It isn't their choice it's just how they're made and their makeup

I think God would repeat what He said to Job...

The LORD Speaks
1 Then the LORD spoke to Job out of the storm. He said:
2 “Who is this that obscures my plans with words without knowledge?
3 Brace yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer me.
4“Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation? Tell me, if you understand.
5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it?
6 On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone—
7 while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy?
8 “Who shut up the sea behind doors when it burst forth from the womb,
9 when I made the clouds its garment and wrapped it in thick darkness,
10 when I fixed limits for it and set its doors and bars in place,
11 when I said, ‘This far you may come and no farther; here is where your proud waves halt’?
12 “Have you ever given orders to the morning, or shown the dawn its place,
13 that it might take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it?
14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal; its features stand out like those of a garment.
15 The wicked are denied their light, and their upraised arm is broken.
16 “Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea or walked in the recesses of the deep?
17 Have the gates of death been shown to you? Have you seen the gates of the deepest darkness?
18 Have you comprehended the vast expanses of the earth? Tell me, if you know all this.
19 “What is the way to the abode of light? And where does darkness reside?
20 Can you take them to their places? Do you know the paths to their dwellings?
21 Surely you know, for you were already born! You have lived so many years!
22 “Have you entered the storehouses of the snow or seen the storehouses of the hail,
23 which I reserve for times of trouble, for days of war and battle?
24 What is the way to the place where the lightning is dispersed, or the place where the east winds are scattered over the earth?
25 Who cuts a channel for the torrents of rain, and a path for the thunderstorm,
26 to water a land where no one lives, an uninhabited desert,
27 to satisfy a desolate wasteland and make it sprout with grass?
28 Does the rain have a father? Who fathers the drops of dew?
29 From whose womb comes the ice? Who gives birth to the frost from the heavens
30 when the waters become hard as stone, when the surface of the deep is frozen?
31 “Can you bind the chains of the Pleiades? Can you loosen Orion’s belt?
32Can you bring forth the constellations in their seasonsor lead out the Bearwith its cubs?
33 Do you know the laws of the heavens? Can you set up God’s dominion over the earth?
34 “Can you raise your voice to the clouds and cover yourself with a flood of water?
35 Do you send the lightning bolts on their way? Do they report to you, ‘Here we are’?
36Who gives the ibis wisdomor gives the rooster understanding?
37 Who has the wisdom to count the clouds? Who can tip over the water jars of the heavens

He finished and Job answered correctly:

1 The LORD said to Job:
2 “Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him? Let him who accuses God answer him!”
3 Then Job answered the LORD:
4 “I am unworthy—how can I reply to you? I put my hand over my mouth.
5 I spoke once, but I have no answer— twice, but I will say no more.”

 

[Spiderman]

I think God would repeat what He said to Job...

The LORD Speaks
1 Then the LORD spoke to Job out of the storm. He said:
2 “Who is this that obscures my plans with words without knowledge?
3 Brace yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer me.
4“Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation? Tell me, if you understand.
5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it?
6 On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone—
7 while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy?
8 “Who shut up the sea behind doors when it burst forth from the womb,
9 when I made the clouds its garment and wrapped it in thick darkness,
10 when I fixed limits for it and set its doors and bars in place,
11 when I said, ‘This far you may come and no farther; here is where your proud waves halt’?
12 “Have you ever given orders to the morning, or shown the dawn its place,
13 that it might take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it?
14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal; its features stand out like those of a garment.
15 The wicked are denied their light, and their upraised arm is broken.
16 “Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea or walked in the recesses of the deep?
17 Have the gates of death been shown to you? Have you seen the gates of the deepest darkness?
18 Have you comprehended the vast expanses of the earth? Tell me, if you know all this.
19 “What is the way to the abode of light? And where does darkness reside?
20 Can you take them to their places? Do you know the paths to their dwellings?
21 Surely you know, for you were already born! You have lived so many years!
22 “Have you entered the storehouses of the snow or seen the storehouses of the hail,
23 which I reserve for times of trouble, for days of war and battle?
24 What is the way to the place where the lightning is dispersed, or the place where the east winds are scattered over the earth?
25 Who cuts a channel for the torrents of rain, and a path for the thunderstorm,
26 to water a land where no one lives, an uninhabited desert,
27 to satisfy a desolate wasteland and make it sprout with grass?
28 Does the rain have a father? Who fathers the drops of dew?
29 From whose womb comes the ice? Who gives birth to the frost from the heavens
30 when the waters become hard as stone, when the surface of the deep is frozen?
31 “Can you bind the chains of the Pleiades? Can you loosen Orion’s belt?
32Can you bring forth the constellations in their seasonsor lead out the Bearwith its cubs?
33 Do you know the laws of the heavens? Can you set up God’s dominion over the earth?
34 “Can you raise your voice to the clouds and cover yourself with a flood of water?
35 Do you send the lightning bolts on their way? Do they report to you, ‘Here we are’?
36Who gives the ibis wisdomor gives the rooster understanding?
37 Who has the wisdom to count the clouds? Who can tip over the water jars of the heavens

He finished and Job answered correctly:

1 The LORD said to Job:
2 “Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him? Let him who accuses God answer him!”
3 Then Job answered the LORD:
4 “I am unworthy—how can I reply to you? I put my hand over my mouth.
5 I spoke once, but I have no answer— twice, but I will say no more.”

The Bible says a lot of things.

It also says "ask and you shall receive seek and you shall find, knock and it shall be opened to you... Faith of a mustard seed can move mountains... Those who believe in me will do the works that I do and greater works". I know that's all false!

If God is not willing to be faithful to his word, what makes him trustworthy? Why should I trust the Bible when it contains so many lies?

 

[David1967]

Basically, the way I understand it, Lucifer decided that he ought to be worshiped like God is. God disagreed so Lucifer rebelled against Him. Lucifer deceived 1/3 of the angels and caused them to follow him.

Lucifer was then cast out of heaven, his name was changed to Satan, and all his fallen angels were cast out with him. They now dwell here tempting mankind to do evil and oppose God.

I'm a little confused on the time line. In Job ,Satan was allowed in the presence of God. So at that point he wasn't cast out. Has he been cast out yet, or does he still roam the earth and report back to God as in Job? Is it possible that him getting cast out with 1/3 of the angels is a future event? Honest question. I don't really have an opinion as I have heard it presented both ways.

 

[Kenny]

The Bible says a lot of things.

It also says "ask and you shall receive seek and you shall find, knock and it shall be opened to you... Faith of a mustard seed can move mountains... Those who believe in me will do the works that I do and greater works". I know that's all false!

If God is not willing to be faithful to his word, what makes him trustworthy? Why should I trust the Bible when it contains so many lies?

Interesting... and then you ask why you are confused?

You open the door to the adversary and wonder why he is able to steal, kill and destroy in your life?

If you believe it is false... then it will be false for you! But to those who believe it will be the power of God for rescuing.