What makes religion beneficial or harmful to communities?

[Dawnofhope]

A translation is a translation. Is what does not edify Bahaullah necessarily not a good translation? You mean we should only take House of Justice translation?

The Universal House of Justice does oversee the translation process and goes to great lengths to ensure a high standard is met. A translation must be faithful to the original, so the semantic meaning of the original must be expressed and the style be as uplifting, dignified, and literary as the original.

The Revelation of Bahá’u’lláh comprises more than one hundred volumes in Persian and Arabic. ‘Abdu’l-Bahá’s written works are in Persian and Arabic, though a few are in Turkish. While much of the correspondence of the Guardian was written in English, a significant percentage was sent to the believers in the East as well. If the peoples of the world are to have access to Bahá’u’lláh’s Revelation, in order to study the teachings and apply them to their individual and collective lives, the writings must be translated into scores and scores of languages. This is an enormous enterprise.

 

[Aupmanyav]

With multiple revisions - first by Abdul Baha, then by Shoghi Effendi and then by House of Justice at various times, I do not think your manifestation's word survives.
But tell me, did he curse the non-believers or not?
Bible version debate - Wikipedia

 

[Vinayaka]

If the peoples of the world are to have access to Bahá’u’lláh’s Revelation, in order to study the teachings and apply them to their individual and collective lives, the writings must be translated into scores and scores of languages. This is an enormous enterprise.

Fortunately it's not anything the world needs. It's no different than some work of fiction by an obscure author. If it was indeed as important as the Baha'icentric folks think it is, the entire works would have been translated long ago.

 

[CG Didymus]

In most cases, I think there's an inherent limit to how much a religion that preaches to be "the one true faith" can get along with non-adherents without having to alter itself.

If someone believes that worshipping their particular god in their particular way is as vital to a person as breathing - which is something that many religions preach - then being confronted by people of other faiths or no faith who are good people living happy, productive lives, suffering no ill effects at all is just as worldview-shattering as it would be for us to see someone living comfortably underwater with no scuba gear or snorkel.

The mere existence of decent, happy people of other faiths or no faith is a threat to some religions.

Exactly, why are religious people knocking on my door? Do they really want to be my friend? No, there is a limit to how "friendly" they want to be. They are there to find people that they can convert. Maybe some Baha'is want to be friends with born-again Christians, but do they really intend to never to try and convince the Christian that the Baha'i Faith is the truth? I would find that very hard to believe. So, because so many religions believe that they have the ultimate truth from God and about God, the people in those religions, to some degree, have to be thinking about trying to convince people of other religions of their truth. And a good way to do it is by becoming friends with the person first.

 

[CG Didymus]

The circumstances and situation prevailing at that time were different yet to me I might equate the threat that Baal posed to Israel as similar to that which Isis poses today to the word and no one has any qualms with the destruction of Isis.

We have to take into account that in those times the Israelites situation may have been a similar threat to their existence and that if Baal were not stopped then Israel as it was known then would have been entirely destroyed.

Jesus commanded His disciples to preach the Gospel to all nations which they carried out faithfully and with success. No one doubts there were massive human rights violations and widespread destruction of indigenous cultures along the road. I don't believe that was what Jesus intended.

My point was that all the other nations had a religion. But, the God of Israel told his people that those people were worshipping false gods. and therefore must be destroyed.

Like Adrian said that indigenous people all had a religion. But, when European countries invaded and brought with them Christianity, those indigenous religions were seen as false. I would imagine that this happened to people that belonged to Hinduism, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism and even Islam. Christians missionaries from Europe, I would think, put them into the same category... that they were false religions and must be stopped and the people must be converted to the "truth" of Christianity.

Whether it worshipping Baal or Zeus or anything other than Jesus, Christianity has taught it's people that there is only one truth. But how different is it now with the Baha'i Faith? Do you believe the religion of Zeus and Baal are true religions? Should those beliefs be stopped? Of course you say all the major religions are okay... but that they have had their time and people must now leave them behind and get with the new religious message from God.

So still, that is essentially saying to those believers in other religions that their religion is no longer working or relevant to the times? That those old religions have gotten off track with traditions added in and misinterpretations and taking things too literal? So isn't that saying... that there is only one truth and that is the Baha'i truth? That the greatest and most important benefit to the world would be to join or at least support the Baha'i Faith?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Fortunately it's not anything the world needs. It's no different than some work of fiction by an obscure author. If it was indeed as important as the Baha'icentric folks think it is, the entire works would have been translated long ago.

I would offer that unfortunately, for the world, it is what it needs and I see that It is fast approaching that realization. The longer the elixir is not taken, the sicker will humanity become.

At one time in Persia when the Bab'i were being exterminated by Naser al-Din Shah by the instigation of muslim divines, to stop the spread of the perceived heresy, E G browne recorded that he estimated at least 500,000 but could have been as high as 1,000,000 had embraced the Message of the Bab. A large amount of these were notable and respected clergy, one being the Shah's most favorite that He had sent to clear up the matter.

The Shah thought he had eleiminated the cause, there was literally most likely one One Babi left, and by divine fate that was Baha'u'llah, who was banished with the thought He would never be heard of again. There are letters confirming this thought.

The Shah before He himself was assassinated, witnessed a resurgence of the Bab'i faith into the Baha'i Faith that had already begun to spread from Persia across the world. Thus what we see unfold in God given Faiths and what will happen, is most likely far different.

I see the Faith is where it was foretold it would be at this time in history, I see it is unfolding as Baha'u'llah said it would.

Hearts will change, Love and Justice will prevail, we will learn from our mistakes. I will also say that I mean, 'We', as in all humanity.

In me saying that, I am happy for you and everyone to make all thier own choices and offer all thier own views.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

I would offer that unfortunately, for the world, it is what it needs and I see that It is fast approaching that realization. The longer the elixir is not taken, the sicker will humanity become.

There are thousands of places on this planet that are currently living in peace. They have never heard of Baha'i. As Didymus hinted at in the last paragraph of post #85 above, it is this very attitude of a _____centric world that causes problems, not solves problems. As long as there are people on this planet that believe that their belief and only their belief is the only solution, well Earth, we have a problem.

But it is the geberal Abrahamic way, (not all) and the rest of us have to deal with it, unfortunately.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

There are thousands of places on this planet that are currently living in peace. They have never heard of Baha'i.

I see that as a chimera, a resemblance of peace, but it is not true peace or unity.

It it good while it lasts, but it can not last without taking the elixer. That is not my idea, those thoughts come from the Baha'i writings, just reworded without a quote.
I see many difficult days ahead, at the same time I see many peaceful days, all the while change will be happening.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

I see that as a chimera, a resemblance of peace, but it is not true peace or unity.

It it good while it lasts, but it can not last without taking the elixer. That is not my idea, those thoughts come from the Baha'i writings, just reworded without a quote.
I see many difficult days ahead, at the same time I see many peaceful days, all the while change will be happening.

Yes, people of many faiths have _______ centric views. It's sad. The other thing is the totally unrealistic exaggeration of the effects they have on the world. This attitude promotes so much disunity. Fortunately the actual effects of such an egocentric belief system remain minimal.

Some larger religions, namely, Christianity, and Islam, do have much greater negative effects on the peace of the world. and historically. It's understandable, as the root cause is the inability to think someone else's viewpoint might indeed be valid. But the 'we can't do it without Christ', 'we can't do it without Baha'u'llah' etc, is just so narrow, dismissing many other valid and responsible viewpoints, as if they simple weren't even there.

In my very different paradigm, that's simply not the way it is, fortunately.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yes, people of many faiths have _______ centric views. It's sad. The other thing is the totally unrealistic exaggeration of the effects they have on the world. This attitude promotes so much disunity. Fortunately the actual effects of such an egocentric belief system remain minimal.

Some larger religions, namely, Christianity, and Islam, do have much greater negative effects on the peace of the world. and historically. It's understandable, as the root cause is the inability to think someone else's viewpoint might indeed be valid. But the 'we can't do it without Christ', 'we can't do it without Baha'u'llah' etc, is just so narrow, dismissing many other valid and responsible viewpoints, as if they simple weren't even there.

In my very different paradigm, that's simply not the way it is, fortunately.

I see it from my Baha'i perspective, that it is we can not do it without God, the God I have seen is in of all the God given Faiths and who also shines from others, to a brightness limited only by selfish motives. This limits no one who is doing good.

At the same time, the Baha'i try to implement that world encompassing vision on a world wide scale, working with all others that share a global vision for peace and unity.

Its a lets see what unfolds situation.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

I see it from my Baha'i perspective, that it is we can not do it without God, the God I have seen is in of all the God given Faiths and who also shines from others, to a brightness limited only by selfish motives. This limits no one who is doing good.

At the same time, the Baha'i try to implement that world encompassing vision on a world wide scale, working with all others that share a global vision for peace and unity.

Its a lets see what unfolds situation.

Yes that's the Baha'i perspective. But on a world wide scale, the effect is negligible. The population is tiny, perhaps stable, if not decreasing. It has about the same effect on world as the Falkland Islands do. There are some larger problems like famine, refugees, climate change, that no simple or small sect could do anything about.

It is a version of 'delusions of grandeur' to believe that what you're doing has some great effect. Generally the delusion is applied to individuals, but in this case it's the entire group.

I was at a talk last night by a groundbreaking woman, a particle physicist who worked alongside the likes of Oppenheimer, back in the 60s in a totally male dominated think tank like situation. She wore her sari to conferences of men in suits where she was one in a hundred. We've known her for about 40 years, and had no idea. the humility is so deep that people really has to pry to get any information out of her at all. Absolutely brilliant scientist for her. published many innovating papers on the topic.

I tell you this just to illustrate the contrast between people who may well be important but think they aren't, and people who think they are very important but aren't.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I tell you this just to illustrate the contrast between people who may well be important but think they aren't, and people who think they are very important but aren't.

The key there is the most important people are those that are most humble and are known by others for their fruit and deeds.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

The key there is the most important people are those that are most humble and are known by others for their fruit and deeds.

I agree in part. Many people do 'behind the scenes' work with no thought of reward. Being with such people is encouraging. Still, most remain unknown. Braggarts, OTOH, like to let everyone know their field of influence, even if it's actually no more than a few feet around their yapping mouths and conceited gestures.

I've learned so much about some very humble folks only through attendance at their funerals when relatives shared life stories.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I agree in part. Many people do 'behind the scenes' work with no thought of reward. Being with such people is encouraging. Still, most remain unknown. Braggarts, OTOH, like to let everyone know their field of influence, even if it's actually no more than a few feet around their yapping mouths and conceited gestures.

I've learned so much about some very humble folks only through attendance at their funerals when relatives shared life stories.

I agree many people work for their communities, all without any fan fare. I see many wonderful people in my community that have served this community and have done that for many years I admire their efforts, even if many do not see their worth.

In the end we can only be an individual that can do our best. The greater picture we can not control and personally I see that the bigger picture, is under control.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

I agree many people work for their communities, all without any fan fare. I see many wonderful people in my community that have served this community and have done that for many years I admire their efforts, even if many do not see their worth.

In the end we can only be an individual that can do our best. The greater picture we can not control and personally I see that the bigger picture, is under control.

/QUOTE]

One small town. No impact.

So now you are saying that the bigger picture is under control? It doesn't need the grace of Baha'ullah. Good to know you've finally come around to this. It'll make you far more content. Frustration is the main result of thinking this world is out of control.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

One small town. No impact. So now you are saying that the bigger picture is under control? It doesn't need the grace of Baha'ullah. Good to know you've finally come around to this. It'll make you far more content. Frustration is the main result of thinking this world is out of control.

Ha ha.....no not quite, as I see it is the God given Message of Baha'u'llah that in control, it is all the good that can be. We can not stop it unfolding in more hearts.

The Faith started in one small town, made quite an impact in Persia. Spread quickly around the world. It is just a small lull in a king tide and flood to come.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

One small town. No impact.

So now you are saying that the bigger picture isunder control? It doesn't need the grace of Baha'ullah. Good to know you've finally come around to this. It'll make you far more content. Frustration is the main result of thinking this world is out of control.

Ha ha.....no not quite, as I see it is the God given Message of Baha'u'llah that in control, it is all the good that can be. We can not stop it unfolding in more hearts.

The Faith started in one small town, made quite an impact in Persia. Spread quickly around the world. It is just a small lull in a king tide and flood to come.

Regards Tony

The important aspect here is, that the benifical part is the work we can all do for unity and the good of all. Our different way of looking at it, if it causes division, should be avoided. Even in saying this, one can see there are a few what ifs that would need to be addressed.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

Ha ha.....no not quite, as I see it is the God given Message of Baha'u'llah that in control, it is all the good that can be. We can not stop it unfolding in more hearts.

The Faith started in one small town, made quite an impact in Persia. Spread quickly around the world. It is just a small lull in a king tide and flood to come.

Ever the optimist. In Persia that's true, but outside of Persia, not so much. In the 60s when folks like yourselves were looking for an alternative. it spread some, as did a lot of other radical non-Christian ideas. But now, with the internet, growth of all that stuff has slowed because of more information being out there. Word form more recent ex-Baha'i is the lack of growth has made people really edgy and desperate. But unless you have a truly open and loving group with something really significant to offer, not much at all works today. The largest growing faith group is the 'nones' and it includes a lot of ex-_______. People are just fed up with 'My way is the only way' exclusive mindset, and frankly, who can blame them?

I've never converted anyone, never been that sort of catalyst for anyone. So you're not alone at all. One main difference, though is that some faiths admit their numbers are at a crisis level, whereas others, like the Baha'i, stay in denial.

 

[Vinayaka]

The important aspect here is, that the benifical part is the work we can all do for unity and the good of all. Our different way of looking at it, if it causes division, should be avoided. Even in saying this, one can see there are a few what ifs that would need to be addressed.

Indeed. Very different paradigms. One is exclusive. The other is inclusive. One preaches their way is the best. The other accepts everyone as having valid stuff. From my POV, the Baha'i attitudes of condescending self-righteousness definitely causes division. But you're free to believe differently.

 

[Vinayaka]

The largest growing faith group is the 'nones' and it includes a lot of ex-_______. People are just fed up with 'My way is the only way' exclusive mindset, and frankly, who can blame them?

An example ... Losing their religion: The young Turks rejecting Islam