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What made you change your beliefs?

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
The Pew people would put me in the category of Spiritual but not Religious. I allow the possibility that a Loving Creator exists. But, if it does, I reason that the love is unconditional.

That assumption leads to others: For example, it rules out the existence of Hell as eternal punishment for anything, much less punishment for picking the wrong religion.
Hi. I read all the posts until yours and yours is what I'd like to comment on. (I will try to read the remaining posts later.) I'd motivated to ask a question or two, if you can answer them without provocation. I do agree that a Loving Creator exists. But -- the love is not unconditional as we might know it. Since I studied the Bible and its principles, I have come to realize many things. I am going to start reasoning with the following point -- we know we face death. We know that's what looms before us. Most of us are not happy with the thought that we will die. Some reason that's what happens with everything, also meaning evolution. There are problems in this world which make life, short or not so short, difficult. Just a comment.
 

Sand Dancer

Crazy Cat Lady
After decades of being a Christian and being afraid to question, the problem of suffering/evil just kept gnawing away at me and I got the courage to question and leave conservative Christianity. I became a moderate, then progressive Christian. As I got more courage to question, the whole premise just fell apart, so I left the religion. That and the fact that there is no evidence of any deities, and that the religion doesn't make people more moral or nicer or even Christ-like, so I figured, "what's the point?" I can like Jesus without being a Christian or thinking the Bible is literal and inerrant, and without the guilt and insecurity it causes.
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
Hi. I read all the posts until yours and yours is what I'd like to comment on. (I will try to read the remaining posts later.) I'd motivated to ask a question or two, if you can answer them without provocation. I do agree that a Loving Creator exists. But -- the love is not unconditional as we might know it. Since I studied the Bible and its principles, I have come to realize many things. I am going to start reasoning with the following point -- we know we face death. We know that's what looms before us. Most of us are not happy with the thought that we will die. Some reason that's what happens with everything, also meaning evolution. There are problems in this world which make life, short or not so short, difficult. Just a comment.
Have you read those reports of people who felt a loving presence within? I had one of those, The Presence didn't identify itself , but it found a way to let me know that it knew everything I had ever done and loved me unconditionally. For you, and everyone else, my claim is useless as evidence, but for me, it was extraordinary evidence that a Creator might exist and, at the same time, evidence that the most popular religions in the world are on the wrong path because none teach unconditional love.
 
I think one day I finally decided to stop being afraid. Christianity, as with a lot of religions, uses the threat of Hell to manipulate its followers, and being brought up in a strict Christian household, from a young age that fear of God was put into me. Questions were met with scorn, half answers, or I was silenced altogether. My eyes would roll into my head as I was met with answers such as "God works in mysterious ways". Groomed to follow the crowd and told I wasn't trying hard enough, it felt like a millstone around my neck. I was meant to feel something. It was meant to make sense. But the more I read, the more I prayed, the more I thought about it, the more I became convinced that the bible didn't hold up to scrutiny. It felt to me like the story of the bible was a bit of a sick joke. Imagine a man, who saves you one day from being run over, you are thankful, he saved your life, but then you find out that he orchestrated the entire scenario and arranged for the person to run you over. This to me feels like a perfect analogy. Personally, even if God did exist, I can't imagine being moved to love and submit to someone who commands me to do so under the threat of torture. Perhaps the followers of Christianity find themselves with some sort of Stockholm syndrome...
 

idea

Question Everything
none teach unconditional love.

"If you are a poet, you will see clearly that there is a cloud floating in this sheet of paper. Without a cloud, there will be no rain; without rain, the trees cannot grow: and without trees, we cannot make paper."

Inter-being, everything connected and dependant - is this unconditional love? United in all things?
 

idea

Question Everything
I think one day I finally decided to stop being afraid...

... Imagine a man, who saves you one day from being run over, you are thankful, he saved your life, but then you find out that he orchestrated the entire scenario and arranged for the person to run you over. This to me feels like a perfect analogy. Personally, even if God did exist, I can't imagine being moved to love and submit to someone who commands me to do so under the threat of torture. Perhaps the followers of Christianity find themselves with some sort of Stockholm syndrome...

What of a different sort of God, who does not cause pain... but doesn't stop it either. Can you imagine any eternal scenario to justify everything?
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
"If you are a poet, you will see clearly that there is a cloud floating in this sheet of paper. Without a cloud, there will be no rain; without rain, the trees cannot grow: and without trees, we cannot make paper."

Inter-being, everything connected and dependant - is this unconditional love? United in all things?
i define unconditional love as love without conditions. The man who shirks his son for being gay does not understand how to love. His wife, who would love her son, even if he was a gay axe-murderer, understands it.

By my definition, a loving Creator would punish to teach but never in vengeance. If such a Creator exists, Hell, eternal punishment, does not, in my opinion,
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
EVIDENCE AND LACK OF IT.
Evidence for Big Bang and evolution, and lack of evidence for God, soul, prophets, sons, messengers, manifestation, mahdis, heaven, hell, reincarnation or resurrection.
 

muhammad_isa

Well-Known Member
..even if God did exist, I can't imagine being moved to love and submit to someone who commands me to do so under the threat of torture..
..that's rather like throwing out the baby with the bath water.
You turn away from truth because you don't like being warned that there are consequences for evil actions.

Who is the loser, here? You, or the one who warns? :oops:
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
build-windmills.jpg


To those who are still seeking, or for those who changed beliefs and settled into a new home, was there any "moment of truth" where you found your previous beliefs to be wrong? What was the catalyst for your change?

Reality is different from the fantasy.

It was easy to leave after the rose colored glasses came off.
 

Sand Dancer

Crazy Cat Lady
I grew up to atheist Jewish parents. We went to Temple only when there was some family ritual that took place there. I was not Bar Mitzvah either - just had a party. So growing up I thought of religion as not being worth spending time thinking about.

This continued until when I was in graduate school. I gradually started feeling that the ultimate questions about the meaning of life was worth considering rather than ignoring. At that point I started a search vacuuming up religious texts and spiritual ideas.

I visited Trungpa's Vermont Tibetan center and really liked how it was run. When they had a work period, you were supposed to work on whatever bothered you. If it bugged you that the floor was dirty, you washed the floor. I, as a guest, was given something to do. This seemed to reflect a deep understanding of psychology and how people can function in a group.

I visited Philip Kapleau's Zen Center in Rochester, NY. I appreciated how he had adapted Zen to work in the west. Rather than begging, they picked up trash along the roadside. This led me to see that what worked in the East might not work in Western culture and practices had to be adapted to fit the Western mind and environment.

At some point, my belief about the value of drugs was challenged by someone who had been part of the drug culture and was now lecturing on the limitations of the drug experience - that it does not offer a spiritual path for us.

This also included him talking about Meher Baba who made the most extraordinary claim - to be the Avatar, Christ for this age. I found myself considering this claim with deep skepticism considering his life and actions asking "is he or isn't he" over and over again.

Among other things, I challenged a follower with something like "Meher Baba says we need to be absolutely honest". How can we if we're planning a surprise party and the guest of honor asks what is going on? If we say "nothing", we're lying. This led into reading and thinking about what the nature of honesty really is, how to respond to questions we don't want to answer honestly, how causing pain to a loved one does not reflect the honesty of love for the person and so forth.

At the end of that long process, I came to accept that Meher Baba is the Christ, the God Man, the Avatar.

What about his teachings and his life made you decide that he is Avatar?
 

Sand Dancer

Crazy Cat Lady
Upon arriving home she told me the good news and I was furious, a bit of a happy deflation that was. I wanted to know who got all the money, as at that time Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh was a big hit in Australia and, well, he had 92 Rolls Royces. About a month later I came home and found a book by the bed called 'God Loves Laughter, by William Sears. Again I was not happy and in the end my wife said just read it please.

Regards Tony

I didn't know Bhagwan had followers in Australia. I thought it was just a quirky Oregon thing.
 

Sand Dancer

Crazy Cat Lady
..that's rather like throwing out the baby with the bath water.
You turn away from truth because you don't like being warned that there are consequences for evil actions.

Who is the loser, here? You, or the one who warns? :oops:

Evil actions is one thing, but evil belief is another. At least in Christianity, if you reject Jesus as Messiah, you go to hell forever. You could be doing wonderful things and making the world better, but if you don't say the "Sinner's Prayer," you're doomed. Sweet...
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
What about his teachings and his life made you decide that he is Avatar?

His teachings. I could fill a book of commentary. But here are a few examples:

I could not accept the classic dogma of Western religions which seemed to me to be not justifiable if there was a loving God. There is no true balance in that view. The Eastern view which Meher Baba stated clearly is one of reincarnation and karma. His map of the journey of the soul from creation to realization is one with evolution is a necessary part.

His comment an atheists, for example struck me as true and has affected me strongly: From my point of view, far more blessed is the atheist who confidently discharges his worldly responsibilities, accepting them as his honorable duty, than the man who presumes he is a devout believer in God, yet shirks the responsibilities apportioned to him through Divine Law and runs after sadhus, saints and yogis, seeking relief from the suffering which ultimately would have pronounced his eternal liberation.

His colophon shows the major world religions as all valid paths and is another way of expressing the Blind Men and the Elephant story.

His life: Given what I know of typical religious and apparent spiritual teachers, I am well aware of how often they are motivated by lust for power, sex, greed and the desire to have many disciples. There were many many incidents I read about none of which betrayed the slightest hint of such motivation.

Here's one example. There was an auto accident in India where Meher Baba was injured badly and was in pain for the rest of his life. Baba was bathed in blood, his tongue was torn, his hip bone fractured, and he had abrasions on his forehead, nose, cheeks and legs. His reaction?

"The whole thing happened in the flash of an eye. When I came to, I found I was the only one in the back of the car. I stepped out and went to the front to see how Baba was and saw him reclining in the front seat, with blood on his clothes and face. [ Even though Baba was bleeding ], never in my life have I seen such utter radiance and luster as was on Baba's face then! He was like a king, a victorious king who had won a great battle. Lord Krishna must have looked like that in his chariot on the victorious battlefield. The radiance was blinding! I could see nothing else, not the car, nor the surroundings, only Baba's face in glorious triumph!

After a few moments, Vishnu asked Baba if he was hurt much. Baba nodded, pointing to his mouth and leg, but gestured for Vishnu first to see how the others were."


The Avatar: At the end, I knew he was no ordinary human. His statement in the same place where he noted honorable atheists included I am neither a mahatma nor a mahapurush, neither a sadhu nor a saint, neither a yogi nor a wali. He asserted that he was the Avatar in that document.

The final step for me was to go to India and to meet his close disciples who were alive at that point. I found them to be utterly down to earth and very different people in their opinions, dress and personality. They all were very loving while at the same time being strongly individual. It was like all the crap that we all (including me) carry around had been burned off leaving real human beings.

At the end of all of this, I was able to say "Meher Baba is the Avatar"

I hope this answers your question!
 

muhammad_isa

Well-Known Member
Evil actions is one thing, but evil belief is another. At least in Christianity, if you reject Jesus as Messiah, you go to hell forever. You could be doing wonderful things and making the world better, but if you don't say the "Sinner's Prayer," you're doomed. Sweet...
The trouble with that, is that it is all hypothetical.

Jesus is reported to have said "those that don't believe in him" are not rightly guided. This needs to be taken in context.
eg. who was he talking to at the time .. what was his environment etc.

Yes, those people who opposed him in Palestine in his lifetime, were opposing G-d's authority .. and knowingly persecuted him.
Those that opposed him were heading for hell if they did not repent.

Religion is not supposed to be non-coherent. People who are innocent of iniquity, and are sincere in their belief are not headed for hell. That is how satan wishes to distract us, by making foolish suggestions.

If a person is doing "wonderful things", it all depends on their intention whether they are really "wonderful" or not.
 

Sand Dancer

Crazy Cat Lady
The trouble with that, is that it is all hypothetical.

Jesus is reported to have said "those that don't believe in him" are not rightly guided. This needs to be taken in context.
eg. who was he talking to at the time .. what was his environment etc.

Yes, those people who opposed him in Palestine in his lifetime, were opposing G-d's authority .. and knowingly persecuted him.
Those that opposed him were heading for hell if they did not repent.

Religion is not supposed to be non-coherent. People who are innocent of iniquity, and are sincere in their belief are not headed for hell. That is how satan wishes to distract us, by making foolish suggestions.

If a person is doing "wonderful things", it all depends on their intention whether they are really "wonderful" or not.

I think it was belief in the Kingdom of God here and now, not belief in him as God that mattered to him. I like your take on it.
 

idea

Question Everything
i define unconditional love as love without conditions. The man who shirks his son for being gay does not understand how to love. His wife, who would love her son, even if he was a gay axe-murderer, understands it.

By my definition, a loving Creator would punish to teach but never in vengeance. If such a Creator exists, Hell, eternal punishment, does not, in my opinion,

Understanding - walking a mile in another's shoes - connected as one is love, yes?

I agree, one suffering = all suffering. We are connected I think.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I didn't know Bhagwan had followers in Australia. I thought it was just a quirky Oregon thing.

Very big in Femantle Western Australia, went like wildfire there.

I lived in Belton some 30k North, but worked at my father's service station on Stirling Highway which was not far from Fremantle and this was the Main road into Perth City.

images (2) (6).jpeg

There was orange everywhere. Ma Anand Sheela was Rajneesh’s secretary in Australia. 60 minutes have a show on this. Here is the video about Pemberton Australia, it also shows the American stronghold.


Regards Tony
 
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