What made us so violent and horrible to each other?

[Aquitaine]

I agree with Ego being the main motivator. We can survive with an ego, however the Ego as it is forms part of the body-mind complex which (when believed in) causes us to think we are an individual in a world full of other individuals.

We take ourselves as individuals with a limited life span i.e. a mortal body. This belief in the body and our eventual death drives us to require security (for the body) and that comes from possession and gain. We must ensure we have food, health, security and longevity. This from the body-perspective must come from outside oneself. Uncontrolled desires result in greed, lust, and other extremes which have knock on effects. We continue to look outside ourselves for better houses, better food, more security. So we put up CCTV, lock our doors, go to war in the name of preventing a worse war and eventually commit atrocities on one another in the name of self-preservation i.e. keeping our body, our family, our nation alive.

On a lesser scale people invest in pensions, insurance, perhaps even in children to help when they grow old. The clock is ticking... is that a grey hair I see?


EDIT, exactly...

But a lot of nations and their Rulers don't go to war to protect their Citizens, and do commit atrocitie to their own people - totally against the idea of survival. The Rulers have all the Wealth they need, and no threat to their own survival, yet the continue to do such things.

 

[Sunstone]

I know, I wasn't trying to argue against your or 'nout, and I accept that Ego must have a significant contribution, it just annoys me how Ego can develope unneccessary conflict etc.

I agree. The ego can see threats everywhere, even where there are none, and people then respond to those threats as real. That's certainly annoying even when it's not disastrous. What can one do about it?

 

[JMorris]

Yeah, I see what you mean now, it was a stupid comment for me to make, but I just thought that since our quality of life, in general, for some parts of the world is increasing, how come we seem to act the same/worse (atleast in terms of our Rulers, and how our Nations act as a whole).

i dont know that we're "same/worse" either. theres been a fair amount of progress in some societies. during age of the Viking who could of guessed that the Scandinavians would become one of the most peaceful countries/cultures on earth?

it could very well be that the world is actually more peaceful in terms of number and spread of conflicts on earth. but the power of today's weapons simply make wars more devastating. i think its probably also subjective in considering whither the human species is more or less savage.......

 

[Onkara]

But a lot of nations and their Rulers don't go to war to protect their Citizens, and do commit atrocitie to their own people - totally against the idea of survival. The Rulers have all the Wealth they need, and no threat to their own survival, yet the continue to do such things.

I totally agree. The question is what motivates a ruler. Why do the super rich continue to work. Why do powerful preseidents wage war.

1) The rulers and super rich are just people, they still know they are going to die. They still believe they have a body. They have an ego, which as Sunstone says, sees threats everywhere (which leads to number 2)...

2) They could be voted out, assasinated, forgotten in the history books. Considered weak and all talk no action.

3) Ensuring they have power and keep power is logical, or they would step aside and go fishing. To ensure they have that they continue to wage war etc. Why, because they still believe they need to do something.

It is their belief that they must act which motivates them into action. They believe they must act as they believe they are the body and the body needs them to act.

 

[Aquitaine]

I totally agree. The question is what motivates a ruler. Why do the super rich continue to work. Why do powerful preseidents wage war.

1) The rulers and super rich are just people, they still know they are going to die. They still believe they have a body. They have an ego, which as Sunstone says, sees threats everywhere (which leads to number 2)...

2) They could be voted out, assasinated, forgotten in the history books. Considered weak and all talk no action.

3) Ensuring they have power and keep power is logical, or they would step aside and go fishing. To ensure they have that they continue to wage war etc. Why, because they still believe they need to do something.

It is their belief that they must act which motivates them into action. They believe they must act as they believe they are the body and the body needs them to act.

True, but, they do still need to do something, the World powers need to do so many things! They need to look after their own people an minimize conflict, as well as needing to care for the enviroment!

It's just that they want to go to war for pathetic ego-masturbation. Yet their allowed into the most powerfull postions in a country.

 

[Aquitaine]

I agree. The ego can see threats everywhere, even where there are none, and people then respond to those threats as real. That's certainly annoying even when it's not disastrous. What can one do about it?

Perhaps the Ego works to ensure our survival, and that was it's only "intention". But our minds can misinterpret its "signals", like you said, and see threats where none existed.

So maybe we need to abandon our Ego to some degree, and not be so afraid of death. Since a lot of this Ego-misinterpretation is about self-survival, maybe we need to just accept that we're gonna die, and get over it. Or maybe, realise that our safety isn't jeoprodized (for the people who actually are safe and secure, like the Rulers) and just live peacefully with others?

Although I'm leaning more to the side that perhaps we just need to accept death, and stop trying to ruin something that everyone must experience (the world, life) just so "I" can benefit from it, or experience it slightly longer.

 

[Sunstone]

Perhaps the Ego works to ensure our survival, and that was it's only "intention". But our minds can misinterpret its "signals", like you said, and see threats where none existed.

So maybe we need to abandon our Ego to some degree, and not be so afraid of death. Since a lot of this Ego-misinterpretation is about self-survival, maybe we need to just accept that we're gonna die, and get over it. Or maybe, realise that our safety isn't jeoprodized (for the people who actually are safe and secure, like the Rulers) and just live peacefully with others?

Although I'm leaning more to the side that perhaps we just need to accept death, and stop trying to ruin something that everyone must experience (the world, life) just so "I" can benefit from it, or experience it slightly longer.

Very sane, methinks.

 

[Onkara]

Perhaps the Ego works to ensure our survival, and that was it's only "intention". But our minds can misinterpret its "signals", like you said, and see threats where none existed.

So maybe we need to abandon our Ego to some degree, and not be so afraid of death. Since a lot of this Ego-misinterpretation is about self-survival, maybe we need to just accept that we're gonna die, and get over it. Or maybe, realise that our safety isn't jeoprodized (for the people who actually are safe and secure, like the Rulers) and just live peacefully with others?

Although I'm leaning more to the side that perhaps we just need to accept death, and stop trying to ruin something that everyone must experience (the world, life) just so "I" can benefit from it, or experience it slightly longer.

Yes, you can only help yourself first. Once you accept death and realise that you are not the body-mind complex you will be free, liberated from the irritation, frustration and fear. The action and horrors around you will still exist, but:
1) You will understand and accept why - peace.
2) You will be there if they come to you asking for help to clear up their mess. - unconditional love.
3) The most shocking thing is that even pain has its place in God's creation. - wisdom.

 

[Aquitaine]

Yes, you can only help yourself first. Once you accept death and realise that you are not the body-mind complex you will be free, liberated from the irritation, frustration and fear. The action and horrors around you will still exist, but:

1) You will understand and accept why - peace.
2) You will be there if they come to you asking for help to clear up their mess. - unconditional love.
3) The most shocking thing is that even pain has its place in God's creation. - wisdom.

Or:

1) You will eventually die, so then you can escape experiencing such an awkward way of existence. Atleast all of this isn't permanent, that's got to be something to look forward too

Although I agree with you about how we need to rid ourselves of our own percieved value of existence, because it appears that is one of the major contributors to so much Ego-miinterpretation, paranoid and irritation etc.

I always thought that maybe, if we were"designed" so that our nerve endings to our sensory organs were placed in another person, we'd be a much more friendly species.

Like if person A has person A's own sensory organs, but person B's nerve endings.
Then person B has B's sensory organs, but person A's nerve endings.

Then we'd litterally feel each other's pain ^_^

 

[Onkara]

Or:

1) You will eventually die, so then you can escape experiencing such an awkward way of existence. Atleast all of this isn't permanent, that's got to be something to look forward too

Although I agree with you about how we need to rid ourselves of our own percieved value of existence, because it appears that is one of the major contributors to so much Ego-miinterpretation, paranoid and irritation etc.

I always thought that maybe, if we were"designed" so that our nerve endings to our sensory organs were placed in another person, we'd be a much more friendly species.

Like if person A has person A's own sensory organs, but person B's nerve endings.
Then person B has B's sensory organs, but person A's nerve endings.

Then we'd litterally feel each other's pain ^_^

I like your thoughts. It would be an interesting experiment.

In a way we do share each others pain, through our emotion. (afterall why do we have emotions?) We winch when we see someone hurt themselves and cry when we see someone cry (in a film). Everything is intereconnected, it is the ego which is telling you that you are alone in the world.

The ego can be our friend, it can keep us alive, helps us to work harder. It serves a purpose: creation, progress, evolution.

However it has a side effect which is that we submit fully to its whims, like a meglomaniac general, and do unquesitonable things. Why?

Because that makes the whole thing much more fun(lila).

 

[Aquitaine]

I like your thoughts. It would be an interesting experiment.

In a way we do share each others pain, through our emotion. (afterall why do we have emotions?) We winch when we see someone hurt themselves and cry when we see someone cry (in a film). Everything is intereconnected, it is the ego which is telling you that you are alone in the world.

The ego can be our friend, it can keep us alive, helps us to work harder. It serves a purpose: creation, progress, evolution.

However it has a side effect which is that we submit fully to its whims, like a meglomaniac general, and do unquesitonable things. Why?

Because that makes the whole thing much more fun(lila).

Well, we can "guess" one's feelings by the signals they give us, like smiling.
But, it's not a direct feeling of, so the signals can be mis-interpreted or falsely put-on, like someone smiling who's actually upset.

Two people could be sitting in a room and one could be very upset or in a lot of pain, and the other wouldn't notice if the person upset played the right signals.

Although I think the Ego is doing it's job correctly, but the user is abusing it. Unfortunately, the Ego can make it's user feel it's own life is more important than other's (and in really bad examples) it's own desires are more important than other's lives.

I know this is a bad example, but it's like how two people can be so easily driven o kill each other. Two soldiers in a war, will kill the other because otherwise they think they'll be killed themselves. So people who're sent to war have their instincts and Ego's purposefully manipulated (by the Governments/Militia Leaders) so that they become to convinced that the enemy is a cold-blooded killer, and therefore must kill or be killed.

Ironically though, the other guy is thinking the exact same thing. Quite sad really. If both the Men decided their own lives weren't justified enough to take another, then it would be a case of live-and-let-live.

It's just a shame that in most cases, if one were to think like that, the other wouldn't follow, and would just kill him. OR, is that me mis-interpreting my own Ego by thinking that would happen??

 

[Onkara]

Well, we can "guess" one's feelings by the signals they give us, like smiling.
But, it's not a direct feeling of, so the signals can be mis-interpreted or falsely put-on, like someone smiling who's actually upset.

Two people could be sitting in a room and one could be very upset or in a lot of pain, and the other wouldn't notice if the person upset played the right signals.

Good Point Mr Rusco
Someone once said to me that they think the world is like one big brain. I asked, then like the synapses, how do we communicate? They said "like this".

It is communication which is the power/mechanism for communicating our feelings, needs and thoughts. We risk overlooking it in the search for something grander. If something needs to be communicate it is communicated in one way or another. If the feeling needs more time inside, then it reamins so. All flowers blossom when the time is right.

Although I think the Ego is doing it's job correctly, but the user is abusing it. Unfortunately, the Ego can make it's user feel it's own life is more important than other's (and in really bad examples) it's own desires are more important than other's lives.

I know this is a bad example, but it's like how two people can be so easily driven o kill each other. Two soldiers in a war, will kill the other because otherwise they think they'll be killed themselves. So people who're sent to war have their instincts and Ego's purposefully manipulated (by the Governments/Militia Leaders) so that they become to convinced that the enemy is a cold-blooded killer, and therefore must kill or be killed.

Ironically though, the other guy is thinking the exact same thing. Quite sad really. If both the Men decided their own lives weren't justified enough to take another, then it would be a case of live-and-let-live.

It is sad. When I watch documentaries of the 1st World War I feel such sadness. Soldiers writing letter to the ones they love whilst knowing they will most likely die later that day. What a waste.

The problem is that human's make a big deal out of it mentally. They add politics and morals to spice things up. Before we know it we are fighting for a cause... often someone elses cause(desire) which is often to solve our smaller benefits(desries), like sending some money home to our children or paying the bills.

It's just a shame that in most cases, if one were to think like that, the other wouldn't follow, and would just kill him. OR, is that me mis-interpreting my own Ego by thinking that would happen??

It takes more energy to stop a fire than to start one. Likewise it may only take one person to stop the war, or change the direction of the world for the better (this forum has many references to those names from those individuals in the past e.g. Jesus, Buddha, Shankaracharya...) but it will require more to continue it (this too is not a problem, as everything is interconnected). As mentioned above, charity starts at home. Only after you save yourself can you then save the world.

 

[Aquitaine]

It is communication which is the power/mechanism for communicating our feelings, needs and thoughts. I /we risk overlooking it in the search for something grander. If something needs to be communicate it is communicated in one way or another. If the feeling needs more time inside, then it reamins so. All flowers blossom when the time is right.

That's an interesting way to look at it

It is sad. When I watch documentaries of the 1st World War I feel such sadnest. Soldiers writing letter to the ones they love whilst knowing they will most likely die later that day. What a waste.

The problem is that human's make a big deal out of it mentally. They add politics and morals to spice things up. Before we know it we are fighting for a cause... often someone elses cause/desire often to solve our smaller benefits/desries, like sending some money home to our children or paying the bills.

Y' know, I'm exactly the same. We look at our history and it's filled with senseless violence, but what annoys me most is just how easy the average "Peasant" was manipulated enough into giving his life for his true enemy (his Ruler), all the while trying to (without realising it) attack/kill someone who's in the same scenario as him.

If you look at it hard enough, you'll see that there is in fact nto much reason at all to go to war. Most of the time, as you said, it's all propaganda and Politics, along with fear.

About the point you mentioned regarding saving yourself first, well, if people took that veiwpoint then there might be less senseless wars. Think of it this way, a Man joins the army to fight for his Ruler's cause, then they win (Horay!), they won. Does it mean his personal life/family is gonna get any better? Does it mean he can go back home and have a decent life? No.

He'd still go home to a struggling family who're stuck under his Government's careless system. He's not accomplished anything, although his bravery and actions are worth more than Gold, he didn't do anything for himself or his family, therefore, he didn't save himself.

I remmeber reading/hearing about an event in WW1 where French soldiers would come over to German trenches and they'd share food and eat together, and don't forget the Christmas Truce.
Events like this make me feel better, that maybe Humanity isn't all that violent, but one thing is for sure, if it's not violent that we are, then we're definitely gullable to others wanting to manipulate us into fighting - either way it's gotta be one, or both, of those.

 

[Onkara]

Events like this make me feel better, that maybe Humanity isn't all that violent, but one thing is for sure, if it's not violent that we are, then we're definitely gullable to others wanting to manipulate us into fighting - either way it's gotta be one, or both, of those.

You make many good points in the post above. I will have to limit myself in response to just the one I quote here. I will write it quite bluntly, so forgive me if it comes across emotive.

There are no gullible people, there is nothing wrong in this world. People do what they do because they were destined. I imagine that people on the front questioned everything they believed in before they pulled their tired body out of the trench to face the enemy machine guns and death. They did it because they had to. It is so hard to accept for us today.

It is imagination and memory that makes us think we have choice.

What stopped them from loving the solider in the other trench? It was due to that sense of being different i.e. “its going to be me or them”, a sense of profound separation... their ego, their body.

Remove the mental separation and your conscious being will be filled with love.

Does that sound like hippy rubbish?

It is!.... Unless you, the reader, investigate inside and look at your life first then all this remains as hype on a forum. Where were you at your birth, what about your death? What is the reason for your life? Nothing else matters until that riddle is solved, we can argue politics, materialism and atheism as much as you wish, but explain your life. J

 

[Aquitaine]

It is!.... Unless you, the reader, investigate inside and look at your life first then all this remains as hype on a forum. Where were you at your birth, what about your death? What is the reason for your life? Nothing else matters until that riddle is solved, we can argue politics, materialism and atheism as much as you wish, but explain your life. J

But isn't "the meaning of life" a riddle that can never be solved? As if, the "meanig of life" is impossible, as long as we're experiencing life?

 

[Onkara]

But isn't "the meaning of life" a riddle that can never be solved? As if, the "meanig of life" is impossible, as long as we're experiencing life?

Yes = because we are always limited in our knowing. This limit is part of life and must be known to be understood.

No = because knowing our limits provides a foundation on which to make conclusions strong enough to end the riddle.

The result for me has been peace, a sense of unconditional love, call it bliss, and profound sense of being here now.

If the goal of life is to make money, experience wonderful sensual pleasures, then that is fine too. The only problem is we must pay for it (some tire of it), where as inner peace is free.

PS: Don't believe anything I say, look outside yourself for philosophy and inside yourself for answers.

 

[Aquitaine]

PS: Don't believe anything I say, look outside yourself for philosophy and inside yourself for answers.

This is exactly what I'm on about - how our "meaning" is subjective. We determine it ourselves, so therefore it must be impossible to objectively define the meaning of life, right?

 

[Onkara]

That is not really my point, I fear I may have mislead lead you unintentionally. My point is that if you think the answer will come from conceptualisation, from reading a post on a forum, you and I will still be here, posting questions and questioning the replies for years. So don't just read it and take it at face value. Its fun, I agree, after all I am here to play.

My point is that to understand the answer, to the point I am making, one needs to start with their own life. They need to question themselves. They need to look within. They need to listen to others and understand (i.e. study philosophy) but apply and question it in relation to themselves (i.e. believe no one until it is first meditated upon). The answer dwells beyond the thoughts.

Best wishes, Onkarah.