What made us so violent and horrible to each other?

[Aquitaine]

Hi Forum, I'm merely just typing out what has just crossed my mind, or rather, what has been on my mind for quite some time.

I was on a plane yesturday, well two planes and a lot of hours at mutliple airports. I saw a lot of Mothers/Fathers with their babies, even my own sister and her 11 month old.

I always find babies interesting, and cute because they're so innocent. So I started to think again, where did it all go wrong? What causes these innocent, precious babies to grow up into monsters, "enemies", and exploiters?

Obviously it's our upbringing, and I'm only here just to vent my opinion, but does anyone else wonder the same thing?

Like Hitler, and Stalin, and Genghis Khan etc, all started off as dependant, innocent babies, wanting to be cuddled and be with their parents, wanting stories to be read to them and to be sung to.

Then what happened? What's turned us into such a horrible and hatefull, war-mongering species?

 

[Sunstone]

I think ego plays a large role in it. The ego -- the sense of self -- seems to be a protective mechanism. By establishing a distinction between self and not-self, it allows the self to be protected from the not-self. But of course, it also sets up the conditions for conflict.

 

[JMorris]

because humans are animals. and animals, even of the same species, kill each other.

 

[Aquitaine]

I think ego plays a large role in it.

What do you mean by "Ego"? Because IIRC there's another meaning of it that Freud invented?

 

[Sunstone]

What do you mean by "Ego"? Because IIRC there's another meaning of it that Freud invented?

Forget Freud. Ego just means "I". The self.

 

[Aquitaine]

because humans are animals. and animals, even of the same species, kill each other.

But we seem to be the only species that will kill/steal/inflict harm on one-another for reasons other than self-survival. Yet we seem to have the longest and most "cozy" type of upbringing (being that we're not born in the Wild).

 

[Sunstone]

because humans are animals. and animals, even of the same species, kill each other.

That depends on the species, doesn't it? Is there any record of bonobo killing each other?

 

[kai]

Is there any record of a bonobo car jacking?

 

[Aquitaine]

Forget Freud. Ego just means "I". The self.

But y' see, I personally think one can have an "ego" without being hostile to another, because I see many people in the World who're like that. Yet it's annoying that we so easily set up these conditions of combat.

I think the only "justified" condition of combat is if your own survival is jeoprodized. Like how we bicker over food, but a lot of Humans have (to a degree) been able to secure themselves resource-wise, yet we still treat each other like dirt.

Even the Rulers, with all their wealth and no threat to their own existence will waste valuable resources waging wars and killing others, whilst leaving their own people to starve-to-death.

I get's on my nerves.

 

[Sunstone]

Is there any record of a bonobo car jacking?

I see your point, but there is considerable evidence that bonobo typically do not use violence or force as a strategy to settle conflicts. So, I think my question was a legitimate one, given their track record.

 

[kai]

well we are all different some people like being violent some people just are violent some people justify violence in one way or another. we are not all clones with the same outlook on life.

 

[ManTimeForgot]

All animals must compete with each other (even within species) given limited resources and space. Population pressure (which is what the result of the above competition is termed) means that all animals will strive towards solutions to shortages in available resources, space, reproductive availability, etc. In humans our responses to population pressure are varied (unlike most other animals), but the same fundamental drives and urges remain the same.

Raise someone in a cultural climate steeped in fear and aggression instead of love and compassion and well the results should be obvious: Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc. Its not exactly that simple, but as far as popular theory goes its not a bad one to work with...

MTF

 

[Sunstone]

But y' see, I personally think one can have an "ego" without being hostile to another, because I see many people in the World who're like that.

But you see, I am not arguing that ego explains all violence. I am merely arguing that ego seems to be involved in much violence. Ego is the mechanism whereby humans see or perceive someone as "other", and that seems to be related to much violence.

 

[kai]

I see your point, but there is considerable evidence that bonobo typically do not use violence or force as a strategy to settle conflicts. So, I think my question was a legitimate one, given their track record.

Check this out


Bonobo Handshake: Bonobo violence

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/3353342/Bonobos-not-all-peace-and-free-love.html

 

[JMorris]

But we seem to be the only species that will kill/steal/inflict harm on one-another for reasons other than self-survival. Yet we seem to have the longest and most "cozy" type of upbringing (being that we're not born in the Wild).

well, we are "smart" animals we're able to conceive of reasons beyond simple self-survival. and i would think what constitutes "self-survival" would be subjective.

and how long have we had a "cozy" upbringing as a species? 2000 years? 10,000? 20,000? and how much different are we from those humans that didnt have A/c and supermarkets?

That depends on the species, doesn't it? Is there any record of bonobo killing each other?

point taken. maybe it has to do with our tendency towards meat eating? hierarchy structured groups? pack/tribal mentality? what do you think?

 

[Sunstone]

Check this out


Bonobo Handshake: Bonobo violence

Thank you. So, there is a level of violence among bonobo.

 

[Sunstone]

point taken. maybe it has to do with our tendency towards meat eating? hierarchy structured groups? pack/tribal mentality? what do you think?

As Kai points out, there is a level of violence even among bonobo.

I think the human ego often tends to aggravate or enhance our propensity towards violence. The ego can see threats to itself everywhere.

 

[JMorris]

As Kai points out, there is a level of violence even among bonobo.

i noticed.........

 

[Onkara]

But y' see, I personally think one can have an "ego" without being hostile to another, because I see many people in the World who're like that. Yet it's annoying that we so easily set up these conditions of combat.

I agree with Ego being the main motivator. We can survive with an ego, however the Ego as it is forms part of the body-mind complex which (when believed in) causes us to think we are an individual in a world full of other individuals.

We take ourselves as individuals with a limited life span i.e. a mortal body. This belief in the body and our eventual death drives us to require security (for the body) and that comes from possession and gain. We must ensure we have food, health, security and longevity. This from the body-perspective must come from outside oneself. Uncontrolled desires result in greed, lust, and other extremes which have knock on effects. We continue to look outside ourselves for better houses, better food, more security. So we put up CCTV, lock our doors, go to war in the name of preventing a worse war and eventually commit atrocities on one another in the name of self-preservation i.e. keeping our body, our family, our nation alive.

On a lesser scale people invest in pensions, insurance, perhaps even in children to help when they grow old. The clock is ticking... is that a grey hair I see?


EDIT, exactly...

I think the human ego often tends to aggravate or enhance our propensity towards violence. The ego can see threats to itself everywhere.

 

[Aquitaine]

But you see, I am not arguing that ego explains all violence. I am merely arguing that ego seems to be involved in much violence. Ego is the mechanism whereby humans see or perceive someone as "other", and that seems to be related to much violence.

I know, I wasn't trying to argue against your or 'nout, and I accept that Ego must have a significant contribution, it just annoys me how Ego can develope unneccessary conflict etc.

well, we are "smart" animals we're able to conceive of reasons beyond simple self-survival. and i would think what constitutes "self-survival" would be subjective.

Yeah, I totally agree, our view of what is neccessary for our own survival is subjective, and others will place the value of other's self-survival in a subjective matter too.

and how long have we had a "cozy" upbringing as a species? 2000 years? 10,000? 20,000? and how much different are we from those humans that didnt have A/c and supermarkets?

Yeah, I see what you mean now, it was a stupid comment for me to make, but I just thought that since our quality of life, in general, for some parts of the world is increasing, how come we seem to act the same/worse (atleast in terms of our Rulers, and how our Nations act as a whole).