What kind of god would punish people simply for not believing?

[kingdombuilder]

From my recollection, it's the disobedience for which God mets out punishment upon after hearing the Word of God, the unbelief is regarded thereafter as a grave sin to which punishment for the unbelief becomes justified anyway because its rejected. So where's the straw-man to the argument?

Note the bold and underline above. What exactly is the message of the "Word of God?" In other words, what is the content of the message being spoken about and heard? Is it simply "believe in God?" Answer these questions correctly and then you will see the straw-man argument implied in the question.

 

[kingdombuilder]

People are punished for not believing. That is why God is feared out of his punishment.

Realistically speaking however, they are not. It's a matter of perception, more of a mind game than most people would like acknowledge.

No, they are not simply punished for disbelief. See post #144, immediately above this one, for my reply to another posted response.

 

[Skwim]

"what kind of god would punish people for not believing?"

- I have seen this question posted throughout the internet and you know what. It is just as much an ignorant question and strawman objection against Biblical Christianity as when I first saw it elsewhere. People are not punished simply for unbelief.

Just so we're clear here.

pun·ish (p

n

sh)v. pun·ished, pun·ish·ing, pun·ish·es
v.tr.1. To subject to a penalty for an offense, sin, or fault.
​

Because heaven (the kingdom of god, or whatever one wants to call it) is what everyone should strive for (per Christian exhortations), and there are rules for getting there---see below---which god oversees, any prevention of entry into heaven based on an infraction of those rules would qualify as punishment; a penalty for the offense.

un·be·lief (

n

b

-l

f

)n. Lack of belief or faith, especially in religious matters.
​

Which doesn't carry any stipulation as to how or why the unbelief exists.

So, where in the Bible does it say (state the rule) that not believing in god will prevent (punish) one from getting into heaven? Well , how about . . .

John 3:15: "...everyone who believes in him [Jesus] may have eternal life."

Romans 10:9: "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved"

Assuming that Jesus is god incarnate, which all good Christians do ("I and the Father are one."), believing in him is believing in god. This establishes one of the requirements for receiving a ticket into heaven.

​

John 3:3: "...no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."
"Born again" is a somewhat slippery term, but in main it means accepting Jesus (god) as one's savior. And, of course, here we see that being born again is one of the rules that must be adhered to so as to keep god from preventing you (punishing you) from getting into heaven.

John 3:18: "...whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."
The rule, even more strongly worded here, makes no bones about the consequences of not believing in god.

John 14:6: "Jesus answered: 'No one comes to the Father except through me'"
And again, we see the consequences of not believing in god; one is prevented (punished) from getting into heaven.

Acts 4:12: "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved"
See the above.

Hebrews 9:28: "...he [Christ] will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him"
So, no salvation, getting into heaven, (the punishment thing again) without believing in god.

1 John 5:12: "...he who does not have the Son of God does not have life."
In other words: He who doesn't believe in god doesn't get into heaven.

All together now: "God punishes those who don't believe him."
​

 

[kingdombuilder]

[quote=Skwim;2122702]Just so we're clear here.

pun·ish (p

n

sh)v. pun·ished, pun·ish·ing, pun·ish·es
v.tr.1. To subject to a penalty for an offense, sin, or fault.
​

Because heaven (the kingdom of god, or whatever one wants to call it) is what everyone should strive for (per Christian exhortations), and there are rules for getting there---see below---which god oversees, any prevention of entry into heaven based on an infraction of those rules would qualify as punishment; a penalty for the offense.

un·be·lief (

n

b

-l

f

)n. Lack of belief or faith, especially in religious matters.
​

Which doesn't carry any stipulation as to how or why the unbelief exists.

So, where in the Bible does it say (state the rule) that not believing in god will prevent (punish) one from getting into heaven? Well , how about . . .

John 3:15: "...everyone who believes in him [Jesus] may have eternal life."

Romans 10:9: "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved"

Assuming that Jesus is god incarnate, which all good Christians do ("I and the Father are one."), believing in him is believing in god. This establishes one of the requirements for receiving a ticket into heaven.

​

John 3:3: "...no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."
"Born again" is a somewhat slippery term, but in main it means accepting Jesus (god) as one's savior. And, of course, here we see that being born again is one of the rules that must be adhered to so as to keep god from preventing you (punishing you) from getting into heaven.

John 3:18: "...whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."
The rule, even more strongly worded here, makes no bones about the consequences of not believing in god.

John 14:6: "Jesus answered: 'No one comes to the Father except through me'"
And again, we see the consequences of not believing in god; one is prevented (punished) from getting into heaven.

Acts 4:12: "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved"
See the above.

Hebrews 9:28: "...he [Christ] will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him"
So, no salvation, getting into heaven, (the punishment thing again) without believing in god.

1 John 5:12: "...he who does not have the Son of God does not have life."
In other words: He who doesn't believe in god doesn't get into heaven.

All together now: "God punishes those who don't believe him."
​

[/quote]

Yes, I am very familiar with the quoted verses and guess what...they change not the fact that God does not punish people simply because they do not believe in Him.

Matthew 7:21-23 "Not everyone who says to Me Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven..."

James 2:19 " You believe that God is one, You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder."

oh, oh, I do think there is a serious flaw with your argument above. Now what is it that you have completely overlooked or ignored??

Again, once one realizes the complete content of the message then the strawman argument will become clearly evident.

Note that every single verse you quoted deals specifically with belief in Jesus, not just God.

Here are 2 questions to help you out:

1. Why the continued emphasis ( as you have generously pointed out, if even unintentionally) on a belief specifically in Jesus?

2. What is it that according to the Bible and Biblical Christianity even caused the need for salvation through Jesus?

In sum, the belief that God punishes those who simply do not believe in Him is a much to simplistic belief to hold. It is due to it's simplisity that causes it to become a strawman argument (as is the case with most if not all strawman arguments) against Christianity.

 

[Jeremiah]

"What kind of god would punish people simply for not believing?"

A big dumb mean doodoo head.

 

[Skwim]

Yes, I am very familiar with the quoted verses and guess what...they change not the fact that God does not punish people simply because they do not believe in Him.

Just because you say things are so doesn't mean they are. You're just not that powerful.

And here's a tip. The way debate works is that when someone makes a claim you disagree with it's then incumbent on you to show, demonstrate, or explain why that claim is wrong, and all before barging forward with with your own claim. Merely claiming the other person is wrong and leaving it at that is grade school tactics, and really reveals your lack of argument. Repeating your assertion that "God does not punish people simply because they do not believe in Him" is such a sorry attempt as to be shameful.

Again, once one realizes the complete content of the message then the strawman argument will become clearly evident.

And again, all you have to offer is baseless assertions. Do you not see how bad this makes you and your claim look?

Note that every single verse you quoted deals specifically with belief in Jesus, not just God.

So you don't think Jesus is god incarnate. OR when Jesus said "I and the Father are one," he wasn't saying that he and god were one." OR when he said "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." he wasn't identifying with god. Who do you think he was identifying with? OR when talking about Jesus it was said, "For by him were all things created." Think Jesus created all things apart from god? OR how about, "God was made manifest in the flesh." Who do you think god manifested himself as, Markus the mad money changer or Jesus?

Nope, KB, you've got to do a whole lot of fancy tap dancing to convince me the Bible doesn't equate Jesus with god. But knowing your answer will be just another unsupported denial I'm not holding my breath.

Here are 2 questions to help you out:

1. Why the continued emphasis ( as you have generously pointed out, if even unintentionally) on a belief specifically in Jesus?

2. What is it that according to the Bible and Biblical Christianity even caused the need for salvation through Jesus?

Yeah, Like I'm going to bother with any of this when you can't bother addressing my argument.

In sum, the belief that God punishes those who simply do not believe in Him is a much to simplistic belief to hold. It is due to it's simplisity that causes it to become a strawman argument (as is the case with most if not all strawman arguments) against Christianity.

Evidently you've picked up a new term,"straw man argument," and are pretty impressed by it. Here's some advice. Find out what things like this mean before using them. As it stands, your use of it is kind of embarrassing.

 

[lemo]

There's so much talk over a question that even my own son can answer. All of your answers are nothing but your own ego of the question. Again you are all quoting scriptures....do you mean none of you know the answer unless you look through the scriptures first?

 

[DarkSun]

"what kind of god would punish people for not believing?"

- I have seen this question posted throughout the internet and you know what. It is just as much an ignorant question and strawman objection against Biblical Christianity as when I first saw it elsewhere. People are not punished simply for unbelief.

The Bible says otherwise...

 

[Wotan]

The Bible says otherwise...

The Bible says a lot of things. Most of it garbage meant for a remote tribe of illiterate ignorant sheepherders living 4k yrs. ago.

 

[Orias]

No, they are not simply punished for disbelief. See post #144, immediately above this one, for my reply to another posted response.

Whatever the reason is you are thinking the way you are, it has been stated by numerous people numerous times, that the non-believers will be punished after death.

I mean we are talking about the Bible, which was never meant to be decoded, rather confusing and 'enigmatic' so it can keep it's grasp on the people's mass perception.

Yes, I am very familiar with the quoted verses and guess what...they change not the fact that God does not punish people simply because they do not believe in Him.

Matthew 7:21-23 "Not everyone who says to Me Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven..."

Ok, what about this? I don't see any relevance to how you think that you will not be punished for not believing.

James 2:19 " You believe that God is one, You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder."

Again, I fail to see any connection to the relevance of the subject. You provide scripture, so what about it?

oh, oh, I do think there is a serious flaw with your argument above. Now what is it that you have completely overlooked or ignored??

Ok, what is this flaw? What has been overlooked? Providing scripture as an argument is just as flawed as any illogical argument.

Again, once one realizes the complete content of the message then the strawman argument will become clearly evident.

Note that every single verse you quoted deals specifically with belief in Jesus, not just God.

Again, you are arguing based off of your perception. And of course the scripture he provided deals with Jesus, as that is what Christianity is about!! Thus the argument

John 14:6: "Jesus answered: 'No one comes to the Father except through me'"

. Jesus was the son of God correct? Now what's telling me that not going to Heaven is not a form of punishment?

Here are 2 questions to help you out:

1. Why the continued emphasis ( as you have generously pointed out, if even unintentionally) on a belief specifically in Jesus?

Because Jesus is God's son. Yes, different scripture may have other views, so what? What makes either of them correct?

2. What is it that according to the Bible and Biblical Christianity even caused the need for salvation through Jesus?

God's own work. It's all rather stupid if you ask me.

In sum, the belief that God punishes those who simply do not believe in Him is a much to simplistic belief to hold. It is due to it's simplisity that causes it to become a strawman argument (as is the case with most if not all strawman arguments) against Christianity.

How can you say that it is simplistic? The topic itself is beyond truth, as it can only perceived and not truly determined. That itself gives way to complexity. There is a reason why so many people follow this faith, because people give meaning to nothing, perception is/was forced down upon them, people simply believe in what other people tell them, and helping the weak live makes them a good person, because we all know that the very person you helped could return in your house and kill you all!!

Oh and yes, FEAR is a great form of manipulation. Know how? Here is a great example, maybe one you would like to try and take a crack at.

Death.

No one has experienced death, as it is not an experience it is an end to the life as we know it. SO with that said, who is to say that early man could not have been manipulated into believing that after you die, you will go to a good or bad place based on the way you live? People believed in God in the early Church days out of FEAR, because they did not want to be found as a 'traitor' to the church and be executed, or simply because they truly believed that not following God would lead to ETERNAL PUNISHMENT.

Comprende?

Nonsense...

 

[Orias]

There's so much talk over a question that even my own son can answer. All of your answers are nothing but your own ego of the question. Again you are all quoting scriptures....do you mean none of you know the answer unless you look through the scriptures first?

If your son can answer them, then why don't you?

 

[kingdombuilder]

Quote:
Originally Posted by kingdombuilder
Yes, I am very familiar with the quoted verses and guess what...they change not the fact that God does not punish people simply because they do not believe in Him.

Just because you say things are so doesn't mean they are. You're just not that powerful.

- yea ok, I am not just saying "things are so" you are obviously ignorant of what the Bible teaches on this matter as is evident by your continued belief that God punishes simply because of lack of belief in Him.


And here's a tip. The way debate works is that when someone makes a claim you disagree with it's then incumbent on you to show, demonstrate, or explain why that claim is wrong, and all before barging forward with with your own claim.

- really, is that the way debate works? :sarcastic Thanks for responding to the vereses I posted that clearly contradict the claim that God punishes simply becasue of unbelief.

Merely claiming the other person is wrong and leaving it at that is grade school tactics, and really reveals your lack of argument.

- Is that all I have done up to this point?? :help:

Repeating your assertion that "God does not punish people simply because they do not believe in Him" is such a sorry attempt as to be shameful.

- yea, ok, have you even read my previous post?


Quote:
Again, once one realizes the complete content of the message then the strawman argument will become clearly evident.
And again, all you have to offer is baseless assertions. Do you not see how bad this makes you and your claim look?

- Perhaps my objective up to that point was not to present any argument for my claim, perhaps it was something diffrent altogether. I know what the Bible teaches on this matter...do you?



Quote:
Note that every single verse you quoted deals specifically with belief in Jesus, not just God.
So you don't think Jesus is god incarnate.

- Yes I do, but that was not my point.

OR when Jesus said "I and the Father are one," he wasn't saying that he and god were one." OR when he said "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." he wasn't identifying with god. Who do you think he was identifying with? OR when talking about Jesus it was said, "For by him were all things created." Think Jesus created all things apart from god? OR how about, "God was made manifest in the flesh." Who do you think god manifested himself as, Markus the mad money changer or Jesus?

- Good Scriptures to point out, but you are responding to something I never intended to imply.


Nope, KB, you've got to do a whole lot of fancy tap dancing to convince me the Bible doesn't equate Jesus with god. But knowing your answer will be just another unsupported denial I'm not holding my breath.

- You are arguing with yourself on this point.


Quote:
Here are 2 questions to help you out:

1. Why the continued emphasis ( as you have generously pointed out, if even unintentionally) on a belief specifically in Jesus?

2. What is it that according to the Bible and Biblical Christianity even caused the need for salvation through Jesus?
Yeah, Like I'm going to bother with any of this when you can't bother addressing my argument.

- Then you are admitting that you refuse to even think beyond your own current (superficial?) understanding of what the Bible teaches on this topic.



Quote:
In sum, the belief that God punishes those who simply do not believe in Him is a much to simplistic belief to hold. It is due to it's simplisity that causes it to become a strawman argument (as is the case with most if not all strawman arguments) against Christianity.
Evidently you've picked up a new term,"straw man argument," and are pretty impressed by it. Here's some advice. Find out what things like this mean before using them. As it stands, your use of it is kind of embarrassing.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________
- I know exactly what a strawman argument is, I have seen it many times.

"In a strawman argument, "the author attacks an argument different from (and weaker than) the opposition's best argument." {Stephen Downes Guide to the Logical Fallacies}"

"One can set up a straw man in the following ways:...5) Oversimplify a person's argument into a simple analogy, which can then be attacked."

both retrieved from http://www.asa3.org/ASA/education/think/strawman.htm

 

[kingdombuilder]

Quote:
Originally Posted by kingdombuilder
Matthew 7:21-23 "Not everyone who says to Me Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven..."

Ok, what about this? I don't see any relevance to how you think that you will not be punished for not believing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kingdombuilder
James 2:19 " You believe that God is one, You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder."

Again, I fail to see any connection to the relevance of the subject. You provide scripture, so what about it?
___________________________________________________________________________________________________

Though the rest of your post certainly could have been responded to...many misconceptions and just plain falsehoods, let me simply respond to this little bit.

Look at the Matthew 7 posted verse again...it clearly states that not everyone who says Lord Lord will be saved. In others words, these are people that believe in God, believe in Jesus even...yet they still will not be saved! This is a pretty amazing teaching by Jesus if you stop and think about it for a moment.

Not sure how much clearer James 2 could be. It clearly says that even demons believe...Scripture clearly teaches that demons will not be saved...yet they believe in God.

Just these two passages alone show that belief in God, even in Jesus, is not the determining factor for who is saved or not. To believe otherwise is to completely miss the main teaching of the Bible on this topic.

 

[Orias]

Quote:
Originally Posted by kingdombuilder
Matthew 7:21-23 "Not everyone who says to Me Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven..."

Ok, what about this? I don't see any relevance to how you think that you will not be punished for not believing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kingdombuilder
James 2:19 " You believe that God is one, You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder."

Again, I fail to see any connection to the relevance of the subject. You provide scripture, so what about it?
___________________________________________________________________________________________________

Though the rest of your post certainly could have been responded to...many misconceptions and just plain falsehoods, let me simply respond to this little bit.

Look at the Matthew 7 posted verse again...it clearly states that not everyone who says Lord Lord will be saved. In others words, these are people that believe in God, believe in Jesus even...yet they still will not be saved! This is a pretty amazing teaching by Jesus if you stop and think about it for a moment.

Not sure how much clearer James 2 could be. It clearly says that even demons believe...Scripture clearly teaches that demons will not be saved...yet they believe in God.

Just these two passages alone show that belief in God, even in Jesus, is not the determining factor for who is saved or not. To believe otherwise is to completely miss the main teaching of the Bible on this topic.

I beg to differ.

Falseness is based upon perception, which is no truth, as there is no truth, there just is what is.

Demons believe in God? Yet my very essence refutes his existence.

You claimed falsehood and misconceptions, so what about them? What are they? You provide no evidence of such misleading perceptions, as your's are no different. Simply because that is what they are, perceptions, not knowledge, not truth, perceptions. As all things are percieved, leading to the falsehood of truth.

Now, if the rest of my post could of been responded to, then how come you didn't do it?

 

[City_Hunter]

"What kind of god would punish people simply for not believing?"

An *******.

Kingdombuilder. All your postings of scripture show is that you might not get into heaven even if you accept Jesus but it doesn't adress the idea that a non believer CANNOT get in.

 

[Cazblue]

I would like to try my hand at this post.
Since the question was not "God of the Bible" or anything specific, I would like to go generic in my post as well.

Imagine, if you will, that God is the source of a bright light. Not so much like the sun with edges that can be so easily defined, but almost more like a bright light shining in your direction in an otherwise dark room. Now, without looking at the light itself, you can see the room. Other people, objects, your own hands, but you cannot see the source of the light itself, just the light emanating form a source. Without seeing the source of the light, you can see because of that source. How long has the light been on, how big is the light source, why is it on in the first place. All you know is that the light has a source. Anything explanation is an attempt to understand the source that you can't see. Of course you may simply accept that the source exists.
Now turn your back on that light and close your eyes. You can even put something you have found around you between yourself and the light. Now you see nothing. You are free to open your eyes again and look around. Or you can sit there in your self imposed darkness and hum, or rock back and forth or just enjoy the shade. Your choice. The light does not provide you the darkness, it is your choice to turn your back on the light. The light is still there. All you have to do is come out of the self imposed darkness and open your eyes.

It is my belief that God does not seek to punish us. We are allowed to punish ourselves. But God is infinitely patient and loving and will wait for us to find the error of our ways and return to the light.

:bow: Hallelujah....thanks Wayfarer...in my humble opinion...a perfect description!!!

 

[Autodidact]

kingdom: We have a customary way of indicating quotes. Would you like to learn it? As it is, your posts are unnecessarily hard to decipher.

 

[Demonic Kitten]

Could someone humor me for a minute and answer me this? What does the Christian God and the Bible have to do with the OP? (http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2112340-post1.html There it is for anyone who missed it)

Maybe I'm missing something...

 

[Wotan]

Could someone humor me for a minute and answer me this? What does the Christian God and the Bible have to do with the OP? (http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2112340-post1.html There it is for anyone who missed it)

Maybe I'm missing something...

John 3:18

 

[Demonic Kitten]

John 3:18

Does that mean that no one can answer my question? I'm not going to look up a bible verse for a thread that.... you know what... nevermind. I don't want to know how a Generic, Open-ended question can turn into a debate about Christianity...