Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Are you saying that that the claim that Christians make, that Jesus was born of a virgin and Jesus was also the Messiah, are contradictory?
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What is your opinion of Jesus?
- Thread starter Redsilverxx
- Start date
Yes, they both contradict what the OT tells us about the Messiah.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
So the OT tells us that the Messiah will not be born of a virgin, and the OT tells us the Messiah will not be Jesus?
Where does it tell us that?
InChrist
Free4ever
We’ll just have to disagree on the subject because I believe what the biblical scriptures say about the return of Jesus Christ, not what the Baha’i’ writings say on the subject or their interpretation of what the Bible says.
InChrist
Free4ever
I don’t think it was decades…
“Jesus' ministry was from A.D. 27-30. Noted New Testament scholar, F.F. Bruce, gives strong evidence that the New Testament was completed by A.D. 100.3 Most writings of the New Testament works were completed twenty to forty years before this. The Gospels are dated traditionally as follows: Mark is believed to be the first gospel written around A.D. 60. Matthew and Luke follow and are written between A.D. 60-70; John is the final gospel, written between A.D. 90-100.
The internal evidence supports these early dates for several reasons. The first three Gospels prophesied the fall of the Jerusalem Temple which occurred in A.D. 70. However, the fulfillment is not mentioned. It is strange that these three Gospels predict this major event but do not record it happening. Why do they not mention such an important prophetic milestone? The most plausible explanation is that it had not yet occurred at the time Matthew, Mark, and Luke were written.”
The Historical Reliability of the Gospels | Bible.org
Differences Between the Four Gospels Skeptics have criticized the Gospels, the first four books of the New Testament, as being legendary in nature rather than historical. They point to alleged contradictions between Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. They also maintain the Gospels were written...
InChrist
Free4ever
No, I don’t think wacky fringe groups are reliable. Nevertheless, the majority is not necessarily correct…
Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and[b]difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
Matthew 7:13-14
Obviously, Matthew didn’t consider the passage of Isaiah 7:14 to have “hidden“ meaning, but believed the it accurately applied to the virgin birth of Jesus Christ.
Therefore, I do.
Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit. 19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not wanting to make her a public example, was minded to put her away secretly. 20 But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”
22 So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying: 23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated,
“God with us.”
Matthew 1:18-23
InChrist
Free4ever
Someone reaching out to save those who are in trouble, headed for destruction is… offering help. Implying bribe or threat is nonsense.
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Laniakea
Not of this world
Why would it matter exactly who was holding the pen that put the words on the page as to whether the words are true or not? Jesus may not have personally written the words concerning Himself, but those who were with Him did. Why would that make the words less true, or not true at all?
Also, how do you know Baha'u'llah actually wrote the Baha'i writings? And even if there was proof he did, how does that make his words true
No, the OT tells us that a virgin birth is not an attribute of the Messiah, and since Jesus did not fulfill any of the actual prophesies, he can’t be the Messiah.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I agree on both counts. So how do Christians respond to that?
Laniakea
Not of this world
By showing you which prophecies were fulfilled. Here's a list of 351 of them: 351 Old Testament Prophecies Fulfilled In Jesus Christ | New Testament Christians.Com
If you want to keep it simpler, here is a more detailed look at the main 40 fulfillments: https://jewsforjesus.org/learn/top-40-most-helpful-messianic-prophecies
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
It matters because those who knew Jesus did not write the NT. Even if the disciples had written the NT, there is no way they could have memorized what Jesus had said and written it down decades later. Obviously, that means we can never know exactly what Jesus said.
Written over the course of almost a century after Jesus' death, the four gospels of the New Testament, though they tell the same story, reflect very different ideas and concerns. A period of forty years separates the death of Jesus from the writing of the first gospel.
An Introduction To The Gospels | From Jesus To Christ ... - PBS
The original tablets of Baha'u'llah written in Persian and Arabic were stamped by Him, with His official seal. They were safeguarded by the early believers and they are now stored at the Bahá'í World Center in Haifa, Israel.
LONDON — The British Museum is showing rarely-seen original handwriting of Baha’u’llah, as well as other archival items associated with His life, in commemoration of the 200th anniversary of His birth, which was celebrated around the world on 21 and 22 October.
Exhibition of Baha’u’llah’s writings opens at British Museum | BWNS
Baha’u’llah’s original writings and certain items associated with His life are on display at the British Museum until January 2018.
How do you know that any words recorded in the Bible are true?
I believe that whatever Baha'u'llah wrote is true because I believe that He was a Manifestation of God.
I believe that whatever Jesus said is true because I believe that He was a Manifestation of God.
I also believe that what Baha'u'llah wrote about Jesus is true.
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86
Laniakea
Not of this world
Of course! Different people are going to have different viewpoints, and therefore differing concerns. A physician (Luke) is going to see things differently than a former tax collector (Matthew), for example. That's actually an advantage to having 4 different Gospel accounts.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I believe that Jesus was the Messiah and He fulfilled many OT prophecies, but I do not believe that Jesus fulfilled the OT prophecies for the messianic age. That is why Jews do not believe that Jesus was the Messiah they are waiting for.
“The Book of Isaiah announces that the Messiah will conquer the East and the West, and all nations of the world will come under His shadow, that His Kingdom will be established, that He will come from an unknown place, that the sinners will be judged, and that justice will prevail to such a degree that the wolf and the lamb, the leopard and the kid, the sucking child and the asp, shall all gather at one spring, and in one meadow, and one dwelling. 4 The first coming was also under these conditions, though outwardly none of them came to pass. Therefore, the Jews rejected Christ, and, God forbid! called the Messiah masíkh, 5 considered Him to be the destroyer of the edifice of God, regarded Him as the breaker of the Sabbath and the Law, and sentenced Him to death. Nevertheless, each one of these conditions had a signification that the Jews did not understand; therefore, they were debarred from perceiving the truth of Christ.
The second coming of Christ also will be in like manner: the signs and conditions which have been spoken of all have meanings, and are not to be taken literally.”
Some Answered Questions, p. 111
To continue reading: 26: THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST AND THE DAY OF JUDGMENT
Ben Dhyan
Veteran Member
Why do you believe in Jesus?
PearlSeeker
Well-Known Member
Yes, Mt is the most Jewish gospel but it's relation to contemporary Judaism is complex. There are also signs of separation from Jewish synagogue and it's leadership at that time.
While this gospel may be the most representative of the first Christians it was also written by a non-eyewitness, in the style of a legend, copying much from the pro-Gentile Mark.
PearlSeeker
Well-Known Member
They (or anyone in direct contact with them) didn't write anything about the good news. I doubt they experienced it. It came from a different source. A source that tries to show the first disciples as not getting it, not having faith etc.
Madsaac
Member
It may because his marketing team went a step to far, when they said he walked on water, rose from the dead and so.
He may well have been a good bloke with great ideas but when you say he had special powers, he falls into the category of fictional characters like Samantha from Bewitched.
Seems crazy that anyone would refuse the love and eternal hope and freedom that the used car salesmen down the street offers you in return for buying a lemon, but he offers much the same amount of reliable evidence that he can fulfill his promises as what Jesus does - ie none at all in my view.
Ajax
Active Member
....and about 2.5 million unnecessary killings (excluding the flood) in the Old Testament..
