What is the point of church?

[sojourner]

We are talking about the Head of the organizations, not the sheep and worker bees.

The priest and nuns live modest lives while the cardinals and Pope walk by million dollar paintings on the wall.

The Head of the Church is Jesus. They crucified him. He was largely a pauper.

 

[sojourner]

i don't think the idiots are successful. to me the successful pastors are the vile ones

we are not talking about little churches, are denying megachurches don't exist

check out this article in forbes;
In Pictures: America's 10 Biggest Megachurches - Forbes.com

How are you measuring "success?" To those in ministry, success is measured, not in terms of income or size of congregation, or numbers saved. success is measured by how well the minister lives her/his live honestly, showing forth God and helping others do the same.

 

[jonman122]

The Head of the Church is Jesus. They crucified him. He was largely a pauper.

I don't recall anywhere Jesus being the head of the church, most of the bible literature i've read suggests he was against the idea of the church. he was also against the idea of people having any material wealth whatsoever.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Well in traditional Christianity the Church is where you go to sustain your spirit. To recieve the sacrament, viewed as spiritual food and drink. Now what is the point of fundamentalist church? I don't know. I don't know what the point of fundamentalism in general is.

 

[fallingblood]

Well in traditional Christianity the Church is where you go to sustain your spirit. To recieve the sacrament, viewed as spiritual food and drink. Now what is the point of fundamentalist church? I don't know. I don't know what the point of fundamentalism in general is.

Maybe you should do some research on it then.




Many churches only "head" is the pastor. Then even then, they do not have supreme control. And then, many of them aren't making much money. (directed at Texasbull)

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Well falling blood I haven't investigated fundamentalism too much, you know I come from a traditional background, Anglican. From what I've seen from individual fundamentalists, I'm not sure I want to investigate.

 

[waitasec]

How are you measuring "success?" To those in ministry, success is measured, not in terms of income or size of congregation, or numbers saved. success is measured by how well the minister lives her/his live honestly, showing forth God and helping others do the same.

look at the link... you will find many churches out there that make MILLIONS of $$$

the small church, well i think either the pastor has control issues or is indeed truly trying to help...but again we aren't talking about the little guys are we?

Most, if not all religions preach and teach unselfishness. If that is true, why do they spend a lot of money on building a church? They can use that money to give to people around the world that are DYING from simple things like diarrhea. But the reality is that even religious people are too selfish too accept going to perhaps an open field... or ANYWHERE that doesn't cost a penny to worship God.

 

[fallingblood]

Individuals do not define the whole. You should know that Senedjem.

 

[fallingblood]

look at the link... you will find many churches out there that make MILLIONS of $$$

the small church, well i think either the pastor has control issues or is indeed truly trying to help...but again we aren't talking about the little guys are we?

Or maybe they just have a church in a very small area? Or one with a lot of competition? And yes, we are also talking about the little guys.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

People love to gossip. Church provides an ideal social group for this activity.

 

[TEXASBULL]

Christian Church (Disciples of Christ).

My apologies. There are smaller sects of religion who are not all in it for the money. The Amish and others come to mind. Most of the major players with the biggest numbers have a hefty bankroll and power influence, but it was wrong to make a " blanket " statement.

The Disciples of Christ seem like an exception to most, but I would still like to know the annual salary of the leader.

 

[Smoke]

What is the point of church?

Power, money, and potluck dinners.

 

[Smoke]

Most churches can barely afford to pay their mortgage and or utilities, provide their clergy a meagar wage, and give a portion of their donations to the poor. Every year it's a tough decision which ministries will continue and which will receive less funding, because utilities inflate faster than incomes.

Every group has to set its own priorities. If most of a group's income goes into maintaining a building it can't afford, maybe that group should consider more modest headquarters.

The median income for pastors is less than $50k. Most are $36k and below. Only idiots would get into this for the money.

From the Christian Post, 19 August 2008:

The average senior pastor in U.S. churches today makes more than $80,000 a year, a recent national survey shows.

Compensation packages, including benefits such as retirement, life insurance, health insurance and continuing education allowances, have increased to $81,113 per year for the average senior pastor. And pastors who hold a higher academic degree are paid up to $30,000 more per year than pastors without any post-secondary education.

The statistics come from the 2009 Compensation Handbook for Church Staff, an annual analysis of compensation packages at churches across the country, and at a time when churches begin planning their budget for the next year. This year, 4,800 U.S. churches, representing about 11,000 employees, were surveyed between January and March by the Your Church Media Group at Christianity Today International.

According to the survey, churches that draw 101 to 300 people each week pay senior pastors $72,664 per year, including benefits. The pay increases to $88,502 for pastors at churches that average a weekly attendance of 301 to 500 people, and then to $102,623 when attendance averages 501 to 750 people.

Compensation also increased among executive and administrative pastors who now earn an average of about $60,777 at churches of 101 to 300 people and $76,671 at churches of 501 to 750 people.

Pastors who lead music, choir or worship earn an average of about $51,954 at the smaller churches and $64,781 at the bigger ones.

Senior pastors, full-time secretaries and administrative assistants in the New England states have higher compensation compared to those in other regions, the survey also found.

Compensation is highest in suburban churches with suburban senior pastors making an average of 50 percent more than their rural counterparts. The pay is lower with churches in metropolitan areas, small towns and then in rural communities, respectively.

Meanwhile, executive or administrative pastors, bookkeepers and accountants earn the most in the Pacific region and administrators fare best in Tennessee, Kentucky, Alabama, and Mississippi.

Pay also differed among denominations. Pastors leading in Presbyterian and Lutheran churches earn the most with over $100,000 in compensation while executive and administrative pastors make more on average with independent and nondenominational churches ($80,469) than any other denomination.​

My parents' pastor was making over $100,000 a year last I heard, which was several years ago, and still found it necessary to supplement his income by flipping house. And of course there's always the hope of working your way up in the organization. Methodists bishops agreed to a 4% pay cut last year, cutting their pay to $120,492. An article from last year reported that the Episcopal bishop of Virginia was retiring early to save the diocese $63,000, which came to one-fourth of his annual compensation package. And a bishop of the Church of Greece is the same pay grade as a general.

 

[sniper762]

a "church" is nothing more than a group of people all striving together for a common goal.

its a proven fact that there is "power in numbers"

a church provides a means of support for the weaker of the group

 

[ChristineES]

Isn't it illegal to congregate at a residence. They just want a place to get together. As for big, fancy Churches, your guess would be as good as mine.

 

[Smoke]

Isn't it illegal to congregate at a residence. They just want a place to get together. As for big, fancy Churches, your guess would be as good as mine.

One of the things I like about the local Quaker meeting is that they don't have a building and don't want one. They pay to use the facilities of a private school on Sundays, and are content with that arrangement.

 

[jmvizanko]

They can use that money to give to people around the world that are DYING from simple things like diarrhea. But the reality is that even religious people are too selfish too accept going to perhaps an open field... or ANYWHERE that doesn't cost a penny to worship God.

Amen to that! Why religious people are bent on building huge expensive idols, which is forbidden by much of what they believe, instead of using that money to help more people, goes completely against the supposed concept they believe in of helping the poor and needy.

Every gold chalice for communion has the blood of a child who starved to death on it just as much as it has the blood of Christ, who ironically stressed helping the needy more than anything else.

 

[ChristineES]

One of the things I like about the local Quaker meeting is that they don't have a building and don't want one. They pay to use the facilities of a private school on Sundays, and are content with that arrangement.

Those kind of Church services are usually the best ones. I dislike great, big Churches and prefer little congregations.

 

[fallingblood]

What I find funny are the people complaining about churches. Let's look at this in a logical perspective.

Many pastor's, especially in the mainstream denominations, have to go to graduate school. The degrees they have, and the amount of school they have gone through, makes sense as to why they get paid the amount that they do.

Many hospitals are overly lavished. Many contain items they simply don't need. It may increase comfort, but many of the luxuries simply aren't needed. The same goes for many charities as well. Do they really need to pay anyone? Couldn't they spend that amount of money on good as well?

Really, this goes for many different industries. The fact is though, people feel more comfortable in nice places. Churches can do more with large facilities. In North Dakota, many of these churches host shows in order to raise additional funds for charities.

Churches also sponsor many charity projects. A couple of churches that I'm working with now just sponsored mission trips in order to help fight poverty in devastated areas. When disaster hits in the U.S., you can also bet that many churches will send members of their congregations to help in any way they can. Without these churches, many of those volunteers simply would never be able to help as they don't have the means to do so.

 

[Thief]

Isn't it illegal to congregate at a residence. They just want a place to get together. As for big, fancy Churches, your guess would be as good as mine.

Last I heard, weekly meetings of at least twelve members is required, along with a written declaration of doctrine.
Otherwise the IRS will not allow tax deductions for your church.