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what is the only thing that God did not create?

Mike214

Member
What is the only thing that we can objectively demonstrate that God did not create ?

Obviously is Time, don't you agree?

Excerpt from the book "The Last Prophecy: The Antichrist and the Dramatic Fall of a Publishing Empire" from www.zondervansfall.com
"One of the greatest portrayals of this relation between God’s Spirit and time can be found in Genesis 6:3: “And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.” If we analyze this scripture in detail, we can perceive that this relation is more complex than we initially assumed. Departing from the fact that God can regulate the time, His Spirit strives with humans, which legitimately means that He can control our lifespan or the time that His spirit interacts and lives in us; we can conclude that, if He can do this, He can control time in everything that exists since He is the creator. Carefully considering the implications in this scripture and God’s ability to offer us eternity, infinite life or infinite time as our final reward, we can conclude that time is the natural source of any spiritual condition, and it cannot be separated from either life or God, simply because time is GOD.

I know that, at this point, some of you might think that this is absurd, blasphemous and idolatrous; but I would invite you to analyze these facts. Time is the only dynamic factor — we acknowledge it as dynamic because it generates life — that we can objectively demonstrate was not created by God. If anyone tells you that God created time, as He did with everything else, just ask that person how she or he would call that unstoppable and invisible moment that was passing while God was creating time. Surely, anyone will tell you that God created time while time was running, or that it simply was not running because it was not created yet. Time was not created because time, in its unique and maximum expression, was always God. The difficulty with digesting this extraordinary truth that has been so well concealed for the purposes of understanding-development (i.e., for the spiritual maturity of mankind), is that we associate time only with man-made concepts, such as minutes, hours, days, months, or years. Civilization invented watches to measure seconds, minutes, and hours as God devised the sun, the moon, and the stars to measure days, seasons, and generations. People erroneously refer to measuring time when what they really do is measure the duration of events. You cannot measure what you can neither control nor hold physically nor bring back to corroborate its measurement. Can you stop or turn back time? You might measure a minute of talking or reading or thinking, in the sense that you can repeat these actions, but you can never repeat a minute of time. Even if you decide to sit down with a watch and measure one of your minutes in quietness, thinking that you will not perform any deed, it is still going to be just that, a minute of your time “observing a gadget” — yet another action.

Simultaneously, hundreds, thousands, millions of people will be involved in different activities, so the minute will not be exclusively yours but also has a universal dimension, which could be only assessed through an accurate and complete visualization of all human activity, taking place at the same moment — as you observe your watch. And, not only human activities, but the activities of all phenomena in existence, and when we refer to ‘existence’, we include time itself — God, the only being capable of discerning His own largeness.

Assuming that you can measure a minute implies a willful ignorance of the divine perspective from the Manifold Wisdom Principle (concept that we explain later) concerning time, or what it is the same, the perspective that recongnizes its universal dimension. Or, is not the same minute for everyone and for everything? When it comes to accuracy, an incomplete measurement is not a measurament at all. The point is that you might think, well, I just measured a minute--my minute. Correct, from the human perspective you measured a minute, but even from the same perspective, and much less from the divine or universal, you cannot measure time. To think that measuring time is possible is as misguided as believing that because you can measure a mile, you can estimate the size of the sky, or the extension of the universe, or the magnitude of heaven."

Manifold Wisdom Church
 
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Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
When the Bible was written, very little was known about the nature of time.
Today we know far more Including the theory that it is not fixed, but related to both relative motion and to space.

We have no Idea at all what is the relevance of time to God, or if it is a function he even needs to consider, let alone measure.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
It looks like your post is a cut and paste job.
Is it simply spam for the Manifold wisdom church, or publishers of the book?
 

PolyHedral

Superabacus Mystic
In order for God to think, time must exist before He does.
In order for time to exist, spacetime must exist.
In order for spacetime to exist, the big bang must have happened.
It is therefore impossible for God to have created the universe. (Unless God is the Doctor, which is unlikely.)
 

Mike214

Member
When the Bible was written, very little was known about the nature of time.
Today we know far more Including the theory that it is not fixed, but related to both relative motion and to space.

We have no Idea at all what is the relevance of time to God, or if it is a function he even needs to consider, let alone measure.

God is the only one who can offer you eternal life. Or for you time is not relevant to life?
 

Mike214

Member
In order for God to think, time must exist before He does.
In order for time to exist, spacetime must exist.
In order for spacetime to exist, the big bang must have happened.
It is therefore impossible for God to have created the universe. (Unless God is [youtube]vY_Ry8J_jdw[/youtube]
the Doctor, which is unlikely.)
So, when everything started. Who did create time? That is why the Manifold Wisdom Church believes that God and Time are all in one.

Read another excerpt from "The Last Prophecy"

Likewise, we can say that, throughout history, some cultures have tried to identify their gods with different entities, such as the sun, the wind, the fire — the list could be endless. Lacking empathy for these groups, some people call them idolaters. In an arguable tone but without judgment, we partially agree that such a label is only understandable for one reason — the limitation, the confinement, the encapsulation within perceptible boundaries of their chosen deities. For instance, a person who venerates the sun might feel the splendor of her god during the morning and probably during most of the day. However, what about at night? Does she feel abandoned by her effulgent god? Does she feel that her god is hiding or taking care of other people in different latitudes? The same might apply for the wind, the fire, or any other object used as a point of reference to worship a deity. We could assume that maybe they just regard these entities as symbolic representations of the abstract; maybe as personal reminders like a picture of someone beloved. Who knows, and I will not argue if someone calls it idolatry, but would anyone take the same approach toward time, which is always present and never leaves us?
When we become able to get rid of all these man-made concepts (hours, minutes, seconds, etc.), and start thinking about time as an eternal and dynamic factor that has the capability to love and have mercy, compassion, and all of the other spiritual qualities that we usually attribute to God, then we will see His genuine personification. I would also invite you to think about what sounds more reasonable when it comes to visualizing God’s image – the traditional image of the old, white-bearded man sitting in heaven that needs to replicate himself and become invisible to be with all of us at the same moment, or the image of Him as the eternal and omnipresent time that stays with us and never leaves? Maybe the image of the beloved old man is a symbol of affection for many of us; but, regrettably, beliefs like this are the ones working against our credibility among non-believers and people who are desiring to believe.
Certainly, for us, after having become so accustomed to a mysteriously indiscernible or unspecified characterization of Him for centuries, it is hard to believe in (and difficult to accept) a more specific approach to God’s real identity, such as acknowledging Him as eternal time. However, once you accept Him from this new perspective, you will feel far more confident and protected by Him, knowing that no matter how uncomfortable the situation could seem, He will always be standing by your side. In fact, you will regret not knowing about this extraordinary truth long before. Another important scripture in the Bible portraying this affinity between God and Time is 1 John 1:2 “For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us.” Reading this scripture, my question would be what is “eternal life” (referring to Jesus), if it is not “time” itself?
 
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Breathe

Hostis humani generis
I don't think so. I see everything as being in God. However, I don't believe God created anything anyway.

Maybe I should just step out of the thread. :D
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
In order for God to think, time must exist before He does.
In order for time to exist, spacetime must exist.
In order for spacetime to exist, the big bang must have happened.
It is therefore impossible for God to have created the universe. (Unless God is [youtube]vY_Ry8J_jdw[/youtube]
the Doctor, which is unlikely.)

But...but........but.........

Then what caused the big bang, if nothing could exist before the big bang?
 

PolyHedral

Superabacus Mystic
So, when everything started. Who did create time?
The question is nonsensical. The concept of time beginning is also quite nonsensical, because in order for that to happen, something must change, and change in general can only happen if time already exists.
But...but........but.........

Then what caused the big bang, if nothing could exist before the big bang?
Nothing; there was no "before" the big bang.
 

PolyHedral

Superabacus Mystic
That article said:
According to several standard interpretations of quantum mechanics, microscopic phenomena are objectively random.
Events on the microscopic scale take place entirely at random, with no possible cause. Although it's true that all causes lead to effects, not all effects have traceable causes.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
1) Just because we don't know a cause for an effect it doesn't mean there is no cause.

2) I am afraid this is a far more complicated problem. There is a "matter" capable of doing X,Y and Z tasks in your answer. The creation of the universe would require a "no matter" capable of doing X, Y and Z tasks, or maybe an ever existing "matter".
 
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PolyHedral

Superabacus Mystic
1) Just because we don't know a cause for an effect it doesn't mean there is no cause.
In this case, it does. Sorry. :D (There's a bunch of mathematics behind the idea that it's not worth going into, since both of us will get lost)

2) I am afraid this is a far more complicated problem. There is a "matter" capable of doing X,Y and Z tasks in your answer. The creation of the universe would require a "no matter" capable of doing X, Y and Z tasks, or maybe an ever existing "matter".
Under the current models, it does not make sense to say the universe was created, because the universe includes time as a component. There was no point where time and therefore the universe did not exist.
 

Mike214

Member
1) Just because we don't know a cause for an effect it doesn't mean there is no cause.

2) I am afraid this is a far more complicated problem. There is a "matter" capable of doing X,Y and Z tasks in your answer. The creation of the universe would require a "no matter" capable of doing X, Y and Z tasks, or maybe an ever existing "matter".

Time qualifies as both--a "no matter" and as an ever existing "matter" .

Matter is a general term for the substance of which all physical objects are made. Typically, matter includes atoms and other particles which have mass. A common way of defining matter is as anything that has mass and occupies volume. In practice however there is no single correct scientific meaning of "matter," as different fields use the term in different and sometimes incompatible ways.
 

Mike214

Member
In this case, ... There was no point where time and therefore the universe did not exist.
So, this bring us back to the original post. Definitively God created the universe. Or even if you believe in the big bang, how would you call that unstopable moment that was passing during the creation of the universe?
 
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