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What is the Jewish understanding of Haggai 2:7?
- Thread starter Pegg
- Start date
Levite
Higher and Higher
It was about the building of the Second Temple (c. 500 BCE). It was fulfilled a long time ago.
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
Yes, I thought that was the case.
So can i take it a little further and ask the understanding of Vs9...
Greater will the glory of this later house become than [that of] the former, Jehovah of armies has said. And in this place I shall give peace..."
Is it agreed that the 2nd temple built by Herod was greater then the temple built by Solomon? And considering the 2nd temple was destroyed by war in 70CE, could it be possible that a greater fulfillment is yet to come??
Golly gee - exaggerated verse in the Tanakh! Who would have thunk? ...
Haggai got it wrong. Stop trying to suck Jesus out of the hyperbole of the minor prophets.
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
Is 'Haggai got it wrong' the view of mainstream judaism?
Define mainstream. I fully suspect that "Haggai got it wrong" would closely approximate the general attitude of Reform/Progressive Judaism as well as Reconstructionist and quite possibly a good percentage of Masorti. And, yes, "Stop trying to suck Jesus out of the hyperbole of the minor prophets" is certainly the view of mainstream Judaism.
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
can you provide any sources, or are you merely giving your own opinion on the matter?
It's pretty much my own (informed) opinion or, to put it somewhat differently, my "Jewish understanding".
TalAbrams
Member
"Stop trying to suck Jesus out of the hyperbole of the minor prophets" is certainly the view of mainstream Judaism."
But to be honest, the "Mainstream" would have to be considered Reform because of their numbers. But most Reform do not even believe in Torah and in many cases, God either.
Jayhawker is correct. My sources are my fellow Jews and the writings of Judaism.
So, it really comes down to this:
NO religious Jew accepts Jesus on any level.
But to be honest, the "Mainstream" would have to be considered Reform because of their numbers. But most Reform do not even believe in Torah and in many cases, God either.
Jayhawker is correct. My sources are my fellow Jews and the writings of Judaism.
So, it really comes down to this:
NO religious Jew accepts Jesus on any level.
Levite
Higher and Higher
The Second Temple was not built by Herod. Herod was the Roman-imposed king of Judea at the end of the first century BCE. The Second Temple was built by returnees from the Babylonian Exile, begun around 520 BCE, and finished around 440 BCE, give or take. It is sometimes incorrectly called "Herod's Temple" because Herod funded a large-scale refurbishment and improvement project, building a new retaining wall along the Temple plateau, repaving the outer courts of the Temple, and restoring some of the outer walls and roofs of the buildings. With that project, Herod hoped to win over the hearts of the Jewish People, who disliked him and his rule extremely, given that he was not Jewish, his rule was imposed by Rome, and he himself was both idolatrous and tyrannical in his practices.
However, the Second Temple, if not as great in its day as the First Temple, was great enough in its time to consider the prophecies about its construction to be fulfilled. There have been those who say that they could also apply to the building of the Third Temple that will come when the messiah arrives (oversight or direction of the building of the Third Temple will be one of the signs we know a person to be the messiah), although this is hardly a universal Jewish interpretation, historically.
It is useful to note that the destruction of the Second Temple had nothing to do with the prophecies of its being built or its greatness. The Second Temple was destroyed as punishment for the sins of Israel, specifically, the sin of sinat chinam, which is to say "baseless hatred," or the inability of the Jewish People to refrain from civil strife, uncivil argument, aggressive sectarianism, violent factionalism, and backbiting.
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
Hi Levite, cheers for the indepth answer.
Can I ask you what time frame it was considered to be fulfilled? Do you mean at the time of the returned exiles from Babylon, or a later time such as when the temple was refurbished by Herod?
so is it believed that Haggai's prophecy will occur at a future time still, Do the Jews still 'generally' believe a Messiah will come and restore Jerusalem??
Levite
Higher and Higher
It's hard to know exactly when its fulfillment became a majority view, mostly because we simply have very few surviving documents of content-worthy note from most of the Second Temple Period, and the early Rabbis were not really given to the insertion of dates and such sorts of pragmatic historical markers into their exegesis: it simply wasn't interesting to them. But it seems like the Tanna'im (the first generations of Talmudic Rabbis, starting around 50 CE, give or take a couple of decades) considered it more or less come and gone. My guess would be that the mere fact of its being built, completed, and reinstated with much adornment would have been sufficient to consider Haggai's words to have been fulfilled.
There are some who call it a Third Temple prophecy, but not even everyone who believes in both a messiah and the promise to rebuilt the Temple believe it to be so. I would not call that interpretation a common mainstream interpretation.
As for Jews believing in a literal messiah, all Orthodox Jews do believe so, and a statistical majority of Conservative Jews believe in a messianic era which probably will include a person who is the messiah. The large majority of Reform Jews do not believe in a literal messiah, although many believe in a messianic era, which will represent not a person's leadership but a more amended and perfected world in general; and quite a number believe in neither. So I would guess (very roughly and offhand) that somewhere around half the Jewish People believe in some sort of literal messiah, but probably somewhere between two thirds and three quarters believe in at least some sort of messianic era.
But even amongst those Jews who do believe in the messiah, many believe that it is we who must amend and perfect the world, and it is our doing so which will bring the messiah, not the reverse.
"Greater will the glory of this later house become than that of the former"
Here is a summary I once wrote about this verse: ××××ר:××× × × â ××ק××קס×
It's in Hebrew, so I will try to translate:
1-3. Some Amoraim (Jewish scholars from about 200-500 BC) claim that it refers to the second Temple. Some explain that it was higher, some say it was more beautifully built than the first Temple (probably after Herod's refurbishment), and others explain that it stood for a longer time.
4. Rabbi Moshe (from about 1000-1100 BC) claim that the prophecy was conditioned on the good deeds of Israel, and since they sinned, the prophecy was cancelled.
5. More recent Jewish scholars (from about 1400 BC to the present) claim that the prophecy was initially about the last Temple, which is the third Temple yet to be built. These include Avrabenel, Malbim, Ramhal and others.
6. Rav Kook (1865-1935) explained that it refers to the second Temple, but it's "glory" was spiritual, in that the influence of Jews on the world around them was much greater than in the time of the first Temple. Jewish scholars had arguments with Greeks and Romans, and many Romans converted to Judaism.
In any case, all Orthodox Jews believe that the Temple will be built again, this time forever.
Here is a summary I once wrote about this verse: ××××ר:××× × × â ××ק××קס×
It's in Hebrew, so I will try to translate:
1-3. Some Amoraim (Jewish scholars from about 200-500 BC) claim that it refers to the second Temple. Some explain that it was higher, some say it was more beautifully built than the first Temple (probably after Herod's refurbishment), and others explain that it stood for a longer time.
4. Rabbi Moshe (from about 1000-1100 BC) claim that the prophecy was conditioned on the good deeds of Israel, and since they sinned, the prophecy was cancelled.
5. More recent Jewish scholars (from about 1400 BC to the present) claim that the prophecy was initially about the last Temple, which is the third Temple yet to be built. These include Avrabenel, Malbim, Ramhal and others.
6. Rav Kook (1865-1935) explained that it refers to the second Temple, but it's "glory" was spiritual, in that the influence of Jews on the world around them was much greater than in the time of the first Temple. Jewish scholars had arguments with Greeks and Romans, and many Romans converted to Judaism.
In any case, all Orthodox Jews believe that the Temple will be built again, this time forever.
