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What is the Great Tribulation?

Discussion in 'Seventh-day Adventist Church DIR' started by reddogs, Mar 25, 2019.

  1. reddogs

    reddogs Active Member

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    Now if you ask, the answer a lot of people give is that is a seven or more years at some time in the future. But the early Church was persecuted from the very beginning, first by the Jews first, then the pagan Romans, then the Papal Romans. So the Church was going through tribulation since it’s inception, first through the persecution and crucifixion of Christ Himself, then through the same in relation to His Apostles, and followers thereafter. Now we find that the dragon or Satan was persecuting the church as soon as as it was founded by Christ and the Apostles.

    Revelation 12:1-6
    1And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

    The man child is Christ, and the woman was the Church, during it’s transition from the old to the new covenant, is a logical conclusion when the facts of the prophecy are examined closely.

    Psalms 2:1-12
    1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? 2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, 3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. 4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. 5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure. 6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. 7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. 9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. 10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth. 11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. 12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

    Isaiah 11:1-5
    1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.

    Revelation 19:13-16
    13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

    The above scriptures are all in relation to the Lord Jesus Christ. It is He who is, and will rule the nations with a rod of iron. The prophecy does not say that the man-child is immediately caught up to heaven, just that he is caught up to heaven. Prophecies condense a lot, into a little. Unless clearly specified, we should not consider the time of prophecies by the form in which they are written, but rather by the fulfillment of the details specified in the prophecy.

    The child is said to be caught up to God, and His throne. Christ is the only one that the scriptures refer to in this manner.

    Hebrews 1:5-8
    5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? 6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. 7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. 8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

    Hebrews 8:1-2
    1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; 2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

    Hebrews 12:2
    2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

    Revelation 3:21-22
    21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

    Revelation 22:1-3
    1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

    The details of the prophecy of the man-child of Revelation 12, can only apply to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ Himself. Now concerning the woman being Israel and the Church-

    Genesis 3:14-15
    14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: 15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

    Isaiah 62: 4-5
    4 Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzibah, and thy land Beulah: for the LORD delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married. 5 For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee.

    Jeremian 31:2-4
    2 Thus saith the LORD, The people which were left of the sword found grace in the wilderness; even Israel, when I went to cause him to rest. 3 The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee. 4 Again I will build thee, and thou shalt be built, O virgin of Israel: thou shalt again be adorned with thy tabrets, and shalt go forth in the dances of them that make merry.

    Lamentations 2:13
    13 What thing shall I take to witness for thee? what thing shall I liken to thee, O daughter of Jerusalem? what shall I equal to thee, that I may comfort thee, O virgin daughter of Zion? for thy breach is great like the sea: who can heal thee?

    Amos 5:1-2
    1 Hear ye this word which I take up against you, even a lamentation, O house of Israel.2 The virgin of Israel is fallen; she shall no more rise: she is forsaken upon her land; there is none to raise her up.

    Matthew 25:1
    1Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

    2 Corinthians 11:1-2
    1 Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me. 2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

    Romans 7:4
    4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

    Ephesians 5:24-32
    24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. 25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. 28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. 29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: 30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. 31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

    Christ left His Father in heaven, and became one flesh with humanity. He brought humanity and divinity together. This is the gospel. Those who accept the Lord Jesus Christ as their personal savior, enter into a relationship with the Lord that is symbolized by marriage. The two become one. This is salvation. For this reason, the church is referred to as a woman, that has been married, or betrothed to the Lord.
     
  2. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Seven Day Adventists arose from the Millerites..

    I think you should read the Revelation letter again. John tells us exactly when these things will come to pass.

    Where in the Bible does it use the words second tribulation or great tribulation?
     
  3. reddogs

    reddogs Active Member

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    Now Christ does say that there will be tribulation that shall rise to an intensity that has not been " since the beginning of the world to this time".

    Matthew 24:21, 22
    "21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved."

    As Jesus spoke these words to His disciples, He was referring to a similar prophecy made by the prophet Daniel.

    Daniel 12:1
    "1 At that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book."

    The good news is that God's people will survive the coming tribulation which is a "time of trouble" that culminates with the Second Coming. When discussing the great tribulation to take place just before Jesus returns, you have to understand that there has been many "times of trouble" for God's people in the past. For example, the children of Israel endured 400 years of tribulation just before the Exodus.

    Acts 7:6.
    "6 And God spake on this wise, That his seed should sojourn in a strange land; and that they should bring them into bondage, and entreat them evil four hundred years."

    The early Christians also passed through a time of trouble immediately after the stoning of Stephen.

    Acts 8:1
    "1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles."

    From A.D. 303-313, during the era represented in the book of Revelation by the Smyrna church, God's people suffered a 10-year period of tribulation.

    Revelation 2:10
    "10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life."

    But perhaps the most notable time of trouble was the "thousand two hundred and threescore days." which is prophetic years, or 1,260 years of intense persecution waged against true Christians during the Dark Ages.

    Revelation 12:6, 13.
    6 "And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and threescore days." 13 "And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman."

    As bad as these times were for God's people, none can compare with the final, great tribulation that is yet to take place. The great tribulation corresponds with the time during which the seven last plagues of Revelation referred to in chapter 15 and 16 when they will fall.

    Revelation 15:1.
    "1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God."

    Revelation 16:1.
    "1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth."

    God's wrath will be directed against the ones who disobey His law, distort His truth, and oppress His people.

    Romans 1:18.
    "18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness."

    The great tribulation will be right before the Battle of Armageddon. Both take place immediately before Christ's second coming right after the seven last plagues.

    Revelation 16:16-17
    "16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. 17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.".

    This great time of trouble but God has promised it will be done quickly or as we read, no one would survive.

    Matthew 24:22
    "22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

    Mark 13:20
    "20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days."

    Here are a few Scriptures that show it will be a short period of time.

    Revelation 18:8 tells us, "Therefore shall her plagues come in one day."
    The key to unlocking the time prophecies in the Bible is to first understand the day-year principle of interpretation. A "day" in Bible prophecy represents one literal year (see Ezekiel 4:6, Numbers 14:34, Luke 13:32). So when Revelation says that "her plagues come in one day," it means within one year's time. The very nature of the seven last plagues with rivers and seas turning to blood and the planet being scorched with great heat, would render it impossible for the human race to survive. This is why Jesus said that unless those days were shortened "no flesh should be saved".

    The experience of the children of Israel just before the plagues fell on Egypt is a type, or symbol, of what will happen to God's people before the seven last plagues described in Revelation 16.

    After 400 years of slavery, the Israelites had become influenced by the religion of Egypt and had lost sight of God's law. So before they left and after, Moses came before the people and encourage a revival of commitment to God's law including the Sabbath of creation. The people responded wholeheartedly.

    Exodus 19:5-8
    "5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
    6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
    7 And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the Lord commanded him.
    8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the Lord hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the Lord."

    Before the onset of the great tribulation, worship and the Sabbath commandment will come to the forefront. In Revelation 14:7, an angel calls God's people to "worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters." Revelation 14:7. The angel is clearly quoting from the Sabbath commandment, which says, "For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day." Exodus 20:11.

    A return to the law of God, including the Sabbath truth, will stir the dragon of Revelation to intense action. The devil hates the Sabbath and .if he can destroy the day that was set apart for God's people to spend with their Creator, he can destroy the relationship. The time of trouble began with the wrath of the devil against God's obedient children.

    Revelation 12:17
    "17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

    Before the great tribulation begins, God's people will experience rising persecution and the saints will have to share their faith in the face of stiff social, political, and religious opposition.

    Revelation 13:17
    "17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name."

    This small time of trouble will resemble the period of time just before the plagues fell on Egypt. The angry Pharaoh tried to turn the hearts of his Israelite slaves against their God by forcing them to produce the usual quota of bricks without providing the necessary straw. In the same way, before the tribulation the government will use political and economic sanctions to pressure God's end-time people into receiving the mark of the beast. When this fails to deter the people of God from obedience, there will be a final death decree. "And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed." Revelation 13:15. At this time, the great tribulation begins and the seven last plagues start to fall.

    The main reason this time will be so intense is because it will come after probation closes for the lost. "At that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book." Daniel 12:1. Notice that when the tribulation begins, the cases of all people have been forever decided.

    For the first time in the world's history, God's Spirit will be completely withdrawn from the lost. The unsaved wicked will be given wholly over to demonic control. The saved will be sealed and the unjust forever lost as their fate is sealed.

    Many Christians believe that the righteous will all be raptured out of the world just before the time of trouble and that the wicked will be left behind to endure seven years of tribulation. Because it sounds appealing, this doctrine has gained widespread acceptance. But the fact remains that the Bible clearly teaches otherwise.

    Here are but a few of the many Scriptures which teach that God's end-time people will go through the tribulation:

    The Bible describes the 144,000 as "they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." Revelation 7:14.

    In His great prophetic discourse on the mount of Olives, Jesus made the following statement immediately after mentioning the tribulation: "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." Matthew 24:22. If the elect were not in the world during the great tribulation, they would not need the days to be shortened!

    All throughout Scripture we see examples of the Lord saving His people through tribulation, not from it. Noah was not saved from the Flood, but through it. Daniel was not saved from the lions' den, but through it. Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego were not saved from the fiery furnace, but through it. In fact, Jesus went through it with them, and He will go through the great tribulation with us as well!

    The children of Israel were not saved from Egypt before the plagues fell, but afterward. God demonstrated His love and power by preserving them in Egypt through the ten plagues. In the same way, the righteous will be in the world when the seven last plagues fall (Revelation 16), but God will preserve them.

    God never promises that our lives will always be easy. Paul states, "All that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution."2 Timothy 3:11

    Paul also told a group of disciples that "We must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God." Acts 14:22.

    Although God does not always provide an escape from tribulation, He does promise to give us the power and strength to get through it.

    Philippians 4:13
    "13 I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." .
     
    #3 reddogs, Mar 25, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2019
  4. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    We know there was a terrible tribulation between 66 and 70 AD.. There was famine, disease, death, war and cannibalism... but YOU are using the words Great tribulation.

    Daniel was writing in 165 BC during the Maccabean Revolt.
     
  5. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    Lots of verses thrown and nothing understood.

    Your question is about "What is the Great Tribulation?"

    So what it is?

    Make it simple, not complicated like the writings of EGW.

    Be concise.

    Please.
     
  6. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Listen again to the covenantal curses of Deuteronomy 28:

    Deuteronomy 28:53 (NKJV) "You shall eat the fruit of your own body, the flesh of your sons and your daughters whom the LORD your God has given you, in the siege and desperate straits in which your enemy shall distress you."

    Deuteronomy 28:57 (NKJV) "her placenta which comes out from between her feet and her children whom she bears; for she will eat them secretly for lack of everything in the siege and desperate straits in which your enemy shall distress you at all your gates."

    ( I would strongly encourage you to read Deuteronomy 28 in its entirety keeping in mind all we have discussed today.)

    I hope that by now you are beginning to understand the words of Jesus in:

    Matthew 24:21 (NKJV) "For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be."

    Let me share with you just one more passage from Josephus just to make sure you see the severity of Jerusalem's destruction.

    "Hereupon some of the deserters, having no other way, leaped down from the wall immediately, while others of them went out of the city with stones, as if they would fight them; but thereupon they fled away to the Romans.

    But here a worse fate accompanied these than what they had found within the city; and they met with a quicker dispatch from the too great abundance they had among the Romans, than they could have done from the famine among the Jews; for when they came first to the Romans, they were puffed up by the famine, and swelled like men in a dropsy; after which they all on the sudden overfilled those bodies that were before empty, and so burst asunder, excepting such only as were skillful enough to restrain their appetites, and by degrees took in their food into bodies unaccustomed thereto.

    Yet did another plague seize upon those that were thus preserved; for there was found among the Syrian deserters a certain person who was caught gathering pieces of gold out of the excrements of the Jews' bellies; for the deserters used to swallow such pieces of gold, as we told you before, when they came out, and for these did the seditious search them all; for there was a great quantity of gold in the city, insomuch that as much was now sold [in the Roman camp] for twelve Attic [drams], as was sold before for twenty-five.

    But when this contrivance was discovered in one instance, the fame of it filled their several camps, that the deserters came to them full of gold.

    So the multitude of the Arabians, with the Syrians, cut up those that came as supplicants, and searched their bellies.

    Nor does it seem to me that any misery befell the Jews that was more terrible than this, since in one night's time about two thousand of these deserters were thus dissected." (Josephus Book V, Chapter XIII, Section 4)

    The Great Tribulation (Matthew 24:21)
     
  7. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    It is true that when the Romans sack Jerusalem in 70 AD it was the fulfillment of Matt 24:1-2
    But the disciples were begging for a sign of the end of the world Matt 24:3
    Jesus said there will be deceivers who will teach about him as the Messiah Matt 24:4-5
    There will be known war where nations and kingdoms are involved Matt 24:6-7
    In the Fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD - there are only 2 protagonist - the Romans and the Jews
    where are the nations and the kingdoms fighting???
    Famine and earthquakes where? in Jerusalem or various places???
     
  8. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Many foreigners fought with the Romans soldiers who had been garrisoned in Syria.

    If you will just do some homework and research, you will quickly find out that while the people who made up the "leadership" of the "Legions" were indeed Roman, those foot soldiers that actually attacked, destroyed and burned Jerusalem were not citizens of Rome, in fact they were not from the lands of today's EU.

    The "legions" were not Europeans at all, they were the ancient enemies of the Jewish people, the same nations that Joshua was told to drive out of the Promised Land. They were recruited from the lands of the Middle East that surrounded Judea at that time and they remain there today.

    Why did they join the Roman Legions? By their service in the Roman military, they would become Roman soldiers and eventually Roman citizens. We can see this in the historical record at www.roman-empire.net.

    The realms of so-called 'client kings' were largely seen as an extended part of the Roman empire. Very often these royal houses owed their authority to Rome.

    As part of the arrangement between Rome and the client kingdoms, the kings had to provide troops for Roman campaigns.
    It was therefore not uncommon for the troops of such client kings to fight alongside Roman forces in battle against the enemies of Rome.

    The 70 AD reality is that Titus' army in Judaea was accompanied by local forces of Agrippa II (Palestine), Sohaemus (Emesa) and Antiochus IV (Commagene).

    Some of the troops from these client kingdoms form the area today known as "The Levant" were even trained in a fashion similar to that of Roman Legions, in order to be more effective on the battlefield when working in union with real Roman forces.
     
  9. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    There are a few important pieces of information that Tacitus tells us. The first is that the Roman "Legions" were accompanied by “a strong contingent of Arabs, who hated the Jews with the "usual hatred of neighbors”.

    The Jewish historian Josephus also records that many other kings and their armies from the immediate nations that surrounded the land of Israel accompanied the Roman Legions as they went on to attack Jerusalem:
    "So Vespasian sent his son Titus from Achaia… to Alexandria, to bring back with him from thence the fifth and the tenth legions, while he himself, when he had passed over the Hellespont, came by land into Syria, where he gathered together the Roman forces, with a considerable number of auxiliaries from the kings in that neighborhood." —Flavius Josephus The Complete Works of Josephus, The Wars Of The Jews Or The History Of The Destruction Of Jerusalem Book III, Chapter 1, Paragraph 3 Let's look further where Josephus specifies not only the names but also the numbers of the client king legion warriors who were willingly recruited to join in the attack against the Jews and Jerusalem:

    "Malchus also, the king of Arabia, sent a thousand horsemen, besides five thousand footmen, the greatest part of which were archers; so that the whole army, including the auxiliaries sent by the kings, as well horsemen as footmen, when all were united together, amounted to sixty thousand, besides the servants, who, as they followed in vast numbers, so because they had been trained up in war with the rest, ought not to be distinguished from the fighting men; for as they were in their masters’ service in times of peace, so did they undergo the like dangers with them in times of war, insomuch that they were inferior to none, either in skill or in strength, only they were subject to their masters." —Flavius Josephus The Complete Works of Josephus, The Wars Of The Jews Or The History Of The Destruction Of Jerusalem Book III, Chapter 4, Paragraph 2
     
  10. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    Hard to sell. You only have one kingdom and another kingdom -
    Roman empire vs Kingdom of Israel



    But this one makes much more sense. -

    Nation will rise against Nation, Kingdoms against Kingdoms.

    World War I - Wikipedia

    Belligerents
    Allied Powers:

    Central Powers:
    Earthquakes in various places

    [​IMG]

    List of earthquakes in 1914 - Wikipedia



    Famine in 1914-1918 during World War 1

    1914–1918 Mount Lebanon famine during World War I which was caused by an Entente powers and Ottoman Turk blockade of food and to a swarm of locusts which killed up to 200,000 people, estimated to be half of the Mount Lebanon population[89] Lebanon 200,000

    1914–1919 Famine caused by the Allied blockade of Germany during World War I until Germany signed the Treaty of Versailles. Germany 424,000–763,000

    1916–1917 Winter famine in Russia[citation needed] Russia

    1917 Famine in German East Africa German East Africa 300,000

    1917–1919 Persian famine of 1917–1919. As much as 1/4 of the population living in the north of Iran died in the famine.[90][91] Although the research of Mohammad Gholi Majd alleges as many as 8–10 million killed, this is based on an original population estimate of 19 million. Other estimates[clarification needed] place the original population at only 11 million, calling Majd's numbers heavily into question. The most accurate number is 2 million deaths due to famine and disease. [92][93] Iran (present day) 2,000,000, but estimates range as high as 10,000,000[94]

    That is the beginning of the end
    The beginning of sorrows.
     
  11. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    MJ

    There's no shame in not knowing,, but now you do know..

    There are earthquakes all over the world every single day. There is a real time website that you can watch.

    The Europeans aren't going to attack Israel, nor will the Russians.. That's all Scofield claptrap..

    The point of course, is that although many of the Roman Legion warriors were citizens of the Roman Empire, it does not follow that they were men from Europe as many naturally assume.

    For some reason, possibly due to the fact that the capital of the Roman Empire was in Rome — and thus in Europe — it is easy to forget that the Roman Empire also included a vast portion of the "client kingdoms" of the Middle East as well.

    Because most of the Roman soldiers were recruited from the kingdoms and provinces where their garrisons were located, the legions that were stationed in the Middle East were the Arab and Syrian peoples of "The Levant".

    The Levant is the Eastern Mediterranean, a geographic and cultural region today that consists of Cyprus, Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, Palestine, Syria, and part of southern Turkey.

    Commenting on the predominant Syrian make-up of the Roman Legions, the Jewish historian Josephus commented:

    "The greatest part of the Roman garrison was raised out of Syria; and being thus related to the Syrian part, they were ready to assist it." —The Wars of The Jews: History of the Destruction of Jerusalem By Flavius Josephus
    Trans. William Whiston BOOK II: CHAPTER 13 Paragraph 7.

    [​IMG]
     
  12. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    Matthew 24:6-8 New International Version (NIV)
    You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of birth pains.

    The Bible says, people will hear of wars and rumors of wars.
    There have been a lot of wars in the past - and years came to pass and nobody heard about it
    But this one sets a condition they heard about the war and rumors of wars.

    [​IMG]

    Did the news of the Fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD reverberated in America? Asia? Africa? Europe? People only new about this in history books after centuries came to pass. But WW I is different - rumors and news about it was wide spread through out the world as it happened.

    5 Things You Need To Know About The First World War

    Comparing wars....

    According to Josephus, 1.1 million non-combatants died in Jerusalem, mainly as a result of the violence and famine. ... The Siege of Jerusalem in the year 70 CE was the decisive event of the First Jewish–Roman War, in which the Roman army captured the city of Jerusalem and destroyed both the city and its Temple.
    Siege of Jerusalem (70 CE) - Wikipedia
    Note: No earthquakes in various places here.


    The total number of military and civilian casualties in World War I were about 40 million: estimates range from 15 to 19 million deaths and about 23 million wounded military personnel, ranking it among the deadliest conflicts in human history.
    World War I casualties - Wikipedia

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I_casualties

    Note: complete with famines and earthquakes in various places
     
  13. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    It rocked the known world in 70 AD.. I am so sorry. You must have been weaned on the Scofield Heresy.. Don't even try to overcome it.
     
  14. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    This is the first time I heard the name Scofield.
    This C. I. Scofield - Wikipedia
    What did he preach? The guy is totally unknown.

    Where is the earthquake in various places in 70 AD?
    List of historical earthquakes - Wikipedia

    Rocked the world?

    We Will Rock You
    Queen
    Buddy, you're a boy, make a big noise
    Playing in the street, gonna be a big man someday
    You got mud on your face, you big disgrace
    Kicking your can all over the place, singin'
    We will, we will rock you
    We will, we will rock you
    Buddy, you're a young man, hard man
    Shouting in the street, gonna take on the world someday
    You got blood on your face, you big disgrace
    Waving your banner all over the place
    We will, we will rock you, sing it!
    We will, we will rock you, yeah
    Buddy, you're an old man, poor man
    Pleading with your eyes, gonna get you some peace someday
    You got mud on your face, big disgrace
    Somebody better put you back into your place, do it!
    We will, we will rock you, yeah, yeah, come on
    We will, we will rock you, alright, louder!
    We will, we will rock you, one more time
    We will, we will rock you
    Yeah!
     
  15. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    You've been taught Scofield without even knowing it. He's not totally unknown at all. The Rapture Ready crowd HIDE his influence... and should.

    Scofield was hired by American Zionist Samuel Untermyer to write and promote the Scofield Bible and found the Dallas Theological Seminary. They were the fathers of Christian Zionism. It was bad theology and pure politics.

    How did you live to be an adult and never hear of Scofield?
     
  16. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    I did not hear about him because he is really a nobody.
    Further even his bible version is unknown.
    Next I am a Filipino who don't know the works of dead American nobodies.
     
  17. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Its still widely used by Dispensationalists.

    It was largely through the influence of Scofield's notes that dispensationalism grew in influence among fundamentalist Christians in the United States. Scofield's notes on the Book of Revelation are a major source for the various timetables, judgments, and plagues elaborated on by popular religious writers such as Hal Lindsey, Edgar C. Whisenant, and Tim LaHaye; and in part because of the success of the Scofield Reference Bible, twentieth-century American fundamentalists placed greater stress on eschatological speculation.

    Opponents of biblical fundamentalism have criticized the Scofield Bible for its air of total authority in biblical interpretation, for what they consider its glossing over of biblical contradictions, and for its focus on eschatology.

    Later editions

    The 1917 Scofield Reference Bible notes are now in the public domain, and the Bible is "consistently the best selling edition of the Scofield Bible" in the United Kingdom and Ireland.

    In 1967, Oxford University Press published a revision of the Scofield Bible with a slightly modernized KJV text, and a muting of some of the tenets of Scofield's theology.

    Recent editions of the KJV Scofield Study Bible have moved the textual changes made in 1967 to the margin.

    The Press continues to issue editions under the title Oxford Scofield Study Bible, and there are translations into French, German, Spanish, and Portuguese.

    For instance, the French edition published by the Geneva Bible Society is printed with a revised version of the Louis Segond translation that includes additional notes by a Francophone committee.

    In the 21st century, Oxford University Press published Scofield notes to accompany six additional English translations.

    Scofield Reference Bible - Wikipedia
     
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