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What is the cause of the public debt?

lunakilo

Well-Known Member
I just watched an interesting video about the public debt in european contries.

It is in danish, so watching it will probably be futile for most of you :) :[youtube]7FfwFsejX44[/youtube]
Cevea: Myten om statsgældskrisen - YouTube

What the video basically says is that the huge public debts that plauge some european countries were not caused by over spending, but by the government having to pay a lot of money (3,4270,000,000,000 € so far) in order to save the banks, money which the government generally had to borrow elsewhere thus causing the public debt.
So
1) financial sector = evil
2) welfare system = good

With my linited understanding of economy, most people who can show me a pretty graph can basically convience me of anything.
3,4270,000,000,000 € sounds like a lot of money. In fact it is an off the scale amount of money, and having to pay that amount of money sounds to me like a sensible explanation for being in debt.

So what say you?
Is the above correct?
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
I'm not familiar with Denmark's economy, let alone its economic history, but it is at least possible that its Government borrowed huge sums to back its banks. Of course, the Danish Government might also have borrowed huge sums (over time) to fund its welfare programs. Or, it's military, etc. So, one would need to know the history of the Danish economy, especially the history of the Government's borrowing, to say for certain. A few minutes of Googling did not turn up much in the way of relevant information. Sorry.

By the way, your figure of 3,4270,000,000,000 € seems to have a misplaced comma.
 

work in progress

Well-Known Member
I just watched an interesting video about the public debt in european contries.

It is in danish, so watching it will probably be futile for most of you :)
No kidding! I did sort of figure out from that teeter-totter graphic, that they blame payouts to the banks for the debt crisis.
What the video basically says is that the huge public debts that plauge some european countries were not caused by over spending, but by the government having to pay a lot of money (3,4270,000,000,000 € so far) in order to save the banks, money which the government generally had to borrow elsewhere thus causing the public debt.
So
1) financial sector = evil
2) welfare system = good

With my linited understanding of economy, most people who can show me a pretty graph can basically convience me of anything.
3,4270,000,000,000 € sounds like a lot of money. In fact it is an off the scale amount of money, and having to pay that amount of money sounds to me like a sensible explanation for being in debt.

So what say you?
Is the above correct?
I've heard at least a couple of economists point out that, even in the case of Greek Debt Crisis, most of the money that is supposed to be intended to bail out Greece, is in reality handed over to their banks, because of their debts from betting on hedge funds and other high risk ventures. Over here, what little has been reported in our media, mostly blames the Greek Debt Crisis on public service unions or early retirement plans.

In the long run, I don't see a way out of growing debt problems worldwide, because in a capitalist banking system, an economy has to grow at a steady rate in order to pay off loans that are handed out by the banks (and are the real source of money in a capitalist system, rather than the central banks). If the economy doesn't grow, the average borrower doesn't make enough profit on their own business ventures or investments to pay back the loan in full. And the economy shrinks no matter whether the governments or the banks take on unrecoverable debts.

The problem today is how will western capitalist economies grow when our natural economy (arable land, fresh water, metals and minerals, oil and other cheap energy sources) are in decline? Not that we haven't pulled a few rabbits out of the hat before through technological innovation like the move to coal and then oil, the development of nitrogen-fixing fertilizers, and the high tech revolution in the last half century. But right now, the cheap oil is running out, the environment is being desolated, and a whole range of ore grades that our manufacturing industry depends on are also in decline.

The problem I see with both liberal and conservative economic theories is that they don't work if there isn't an adequate natural economy to support our demands for more food, manufactured goods etc.. The only economic system that is going to work to benefit of the majority of people is one that can work in a no-growth environment, and within the environmental constraints that nature is starting to place on the more than 7 billion people now living on this earth.
 

lunakilo

Well-Known Member
I'm not familiar with Denmark's economy, let alone its economic history, but it is at least possible that its Government borrowed huge sums to back its banks. Of course, the Danish Government might also have borrowed huge sums (over time) to fund its welfare programs. Or, it's military, etc. So, one would need to know the history of the Danish economy, especially the history of the Government's borrowing, to say for certain. A few minutes of Googling did not turn up much in the way of relevant information. Sorry.
It is not so much the danish economy that is the issue, but european economies in general.
By the way, your figure of 3,4270,000,000,000 € seems to have a misplaced comma.
Yes, it should have said 34,270,000,000,000 €
 

lunakilo

Well-Known Member
No kidding! I did sort of figure out from that teeter-totter graphic, that they blame payouts to the banks for the debt crisis.

I've heard at least a couple of economists point out that, even in the case of Greek Debt Crisis, most of the money that is supposed to be intended to bail out Greece, is in reality handed over to their banks, because of their debts from betting on hedge funds and other high risk ventures. Over here, what little has been reported in our media, mostly blames the Greek Debt Crisis on public service unions or early retirement plans.
Yes, over here our media also, mostly blames the Greek Debt Crisis on public service unions or early retirement plans.
And I have no doubt that the Greek have a problem there, but is it the main problem?
The clip I posted claims otherwise.

The people who made the clip are campainng for the financial tranaction tax. They are arguing that this is the best way to make the financial sector pay back some of the money they have recieved due to the crises.

It would be interesting to have the number.
Is the number 34,270,000,000,000 €?
How much of the money governments have borrowed is really a loan to the financial sector in disguise?
I would really like to know.

In the long run, I don't see a way out of growing debt problems worldwide, because in a capitalist banking system, an economy has to grow at a steady rate in order to pay off loans that are handed out by the banks (and are the real source of money in a capitalist system, rather than the central banks). If the economy doesn't grow, the average borrower doesn't make enough profit on their own business ventures or investments to pay back the loan in full. And the economy shrinks no matter whether the governments or the banks take on unrecoverable debts.

The problem today is how will western capitalist economies grow when our natural economy (arable land, fresh water, metals and minerals, oil and other cheap energy sources) are in decline? Not that we haven't pulled a few rabbits out of the hat before through technological innovation like the move to coal and then oil, the development of nitrogen-fixing fertilizers, and the high tech revolution in the last half century. But right now, the cheap oil is running out, the environment is being desolated, and a whole range of ore grades that our manufacturing industry depends on are also in decline.

The problem I see with both liberal and conservative economic theories is that they don't work if there isn't an adequate natural economy to support our demands for more food, manufactured goods etc.. The only economic system that is going to work to benefit of the majority of people is one that can work in a no-growth environment, and within the environmental constraints that nature is starting to place on the more than 7 billion people now living on this earth.

Someone once told me that the rate of growth is the speed at wich we are heading for the edge of the cliff :)
I agree that the capitalist system is flawed. It doesn't really work well in aclosed system does it.

I am not so worried about the decline of the natural economy as you call it. Not that it is not a problem, just that it is not an unsolvable problem.
I am a great beliver in pulling rabbits out of the hat.

There may be 7 billion people now living on this earth, but the growth rate of the population is declining, so we are not talking about an infinite amount of people that we have to make room for.
Land can be farmed more effectivly, water can be cleaned.
We may be running out of cheap oil, but that still leaves the oil which is more difficult to get at, and there are such a thing as renewable energy sources.

In the 1970' durring the oil crises people in Denmark were COLD.
The government could see the flaw in the plan of bying cheap oil from abroad when there was no cheap oil to buy.
They decided to be come self sufficient when it comes to energy.
They decided to start pulling oil out of the north sea even though it was more expencive than bying cheap oil from abroad (people who are cold don't complain about the price of oil :) ).
As the price of oil has gone up, up, up the investment turned out to be a good one.
Now we can see the end of the oil in the north sea. Not today or tomorrow, but it will run out.
So where to get energy?
Denmark is a very windy place, so they decided to invest in windmills.
I just checked the statistics, and as of 2011 28% of the electricity in Denmark is provided by windmills.
There is quite a distance up to 100%, but I think we will make it befor we run out of oil.
 

work in progress

Well-Known Member
Yes, over here our media also, mostly blames the Greek Debt Crisis on public service unions or early retirement plans.
And I have no doubt that the Greek have a problem there, but is it the main problem?
The clip I posted claims otherwise.

The people who made the clip are campainng for the financial tranaction tax. They are arguing that this is the best way to make the financial sector pay back some of the money they have recieved due to the crises.
I've heard about this idea of a transaction tax, and it's concept that cannot even be discussed in North American mainstream media...let alone be taken up by any legislative body to debate or vote on. I have only heard a little bit about the transaction tax in alternative media, and from what I've heard, it could help society in two ways:
1. direct taxation towards the presently low taxed (and even untaxed) income enjoyed by so many investors and market speculators, and away from taxes on earned income and purchases, which have the greatest impact on middle and lower income groups than they do on the rich.
2. provide a dampening effect on stock and bond market players who, with the help of programmed trades, are constantly moving money around and rewarding speculation, rather than real investment.
I can't see a downside to a market transaction tax, and many positive benefits. Yet, it will never see the light of day in the U.S., nor in Canada unless an NDP federal government is formed which has not completely sold out their principles if they win the next federal election.
Someone once told me that the rate of growth is the speed at wich we are heading for the edge of the cliff :)
I agree that the capitalist system is flawed. It doesn't really work well in aclosed system does it.

I am not so worried about the decline of the natural economy as you call it. Not that it is not a problem, just that it is not an unsolvable problem.
I am a great beliver in pulling rabbits out of the hat.
It seems that regardless of whatever claims that conservative, liberal and libertarian economists want to make about the benefits of capitalism, it is fatally flawed to require continuous, endless economic growth. The problems of capitalism go beyond its tendency to increase income and wealth gaps over time...which liberal Keynsians claim to have the prescription for fixing...the fundamental problem is that capitalism and modern economic theory no longer recognizes its dependency on nature. This wasn't the case back in the time of Adam Smith and John Stuart Mill, when they were first trying to create a science of understanding economies. They recognized that all of their theories about money first depended on available land and the available natural resources that could be used. Since their time, economics has become unhinged from nature, and consigned nature to being just a list of resources, not essentially different than human capital or investment capital...and no economic theory I am aware of is able to effectively apply the costs of ecological degradation and their impacts of future resource availability.

And capitalism is more likely to reward environmental destruction than to even remain neutral! Consider the BP Gulf Oil Disaster that will leave long-lasting effects to the Gulf and surrounding communities for years to come. The costs of cleanup show up on the balance sheet as an economic stimulus to businesses and workers directly involved in the cleanup. And even in the long term, BP's limited financial liability...which will reduce the likelihood that Gulf residents, cleanup workers impacted by the Blowout, and consumers of Gulf fish and shellfish with high toxin levels who develop cancers over the coming years and decades, will not be able to receive a fraction of the compensation that they should be entitled to.

And I don't believe we can keep on pulling rabbits out of a hat, when it comes to gains from technological innovations and substitutions as a workaround strategy in the case of real physical limits to growth being applied by our environment. I've heard the slogan from the futurists that "the stone age didn't end because of a shortage of stone." But that slogan ignores the fact that our long historical search for cheaper sources of energy ended with oil. And even though oil burns cleaner, and provides more btu's per volume than coal, the coal age didn't end either! Today, because of the size of our present global population, and it's growing demands for energy and new consumer products, coal consumption is as high as it was 100 years ago, before oil became the major player on the energy market. Back then, there was still a lot of high grade - Anthracite available for burning. Over the decades, coal users have used up the higher grades and have had to depend more and more on lower grade dirty coal to keep the power stations and the steel mills going (among other users). Just as the EROEI (energy return on energy invested) has declined over time, so the same thing has happened with oil, as the developers have to go after deeper and dirtier supplies to keep the machines of civilization functioning....worth noting that even in Western Canada, where their going hog wild forcing bitumen to the surface from tar sands, they are going after deeper, more energy-intensive deposits now than when they started the started these operations 40 years ago with a small Shell Oil operation digging up surface deposits of bitumen.

And with all this, if capitalism is such a great incentive and motivator to move to the next level of energy supply -- where is the NEW supply of abundant energy? Windmills? Seriously! They don't supply power when the wind isn't blowing, and they are becoming extremely costly as they become more high tech and require rare exotic metals to build. Without generous government subsidies, there wouldn't be an industry building windmills today! I've even heard recently that, according to geothermal boosters, England could supply 30% of its electrical needs through geothermal power. I haven't verified the claim, but I suspect that they are talking about some major drilling, which could be costly...but if it is true, it would be a lot better use of alternative energy subsidies than building more windmills along the coasts!

And, for what it's worth, I've learned a little, but don't have expert knowledge about nuclear power...something we thought would be that "rabbit" back when I was young. But unfortunately most of the green movements since the 70's has lumped nuclear in the same basket as fossil fuels, and won't even consider any nuclear design. Banning The Bomb turned into a blanket banning of all things nuclear, so It's hard to get clear, unbiased information on nuclear, when most of the pro-nuclear info comes from the industry, and the anti-nuclear messaging comes from opponents who ramp up the fear card.

I posted a few things I read previously from a blogger (I'll look it up if necessary) who is a nuclear engineer and U.S. Naval officer, and who's main job is looking after the array of small reactors that power ships and submarines in the U.S. Navy. These small reactors are simpler and apparently much safer than the large, complicated reactors...like the ones that will be an ever-present threat in Japan for years to come. According to this expert, it would be easily possible to produce safe, small modular reactors (SMR's) that don't even require pressurized cooling systems to maintain proper core temperatures; but the main roadblocks in front of them are bureaucratic -- namely that, at least in the U.S., the licensing of every new reactor by the Atomic Energy Commission applies the same price tag to each and every reactor, regardless of its size and energy output. This is an obvious incentive for the nuclear industry to go big or don't go at all. And it's apparently the same problem with insurance costs, that don't seem to be capable of assessing the actual risks of the design, and just apply a blanket risk assessment. So, the end result has been that the U.S. Navy and NASA have been the only institutions willing to pay the high costs for small reactors.

One thing is clear -- we are running out of time to fritter away chances to restructure our economies to function without cars and to keep supplying cheap abundant electricity to keep the lights on. Fusion power is always 10 or 20 years away from practicality....I've been hearing this song and dance for over 30 years, and alternatives like SMR's and Geothermal are going to have high startup costs. I don't see how the numbers add up for replacing everything with wind and solar, and I suspect that the boosters are either in position to benefit personally, or just using windmills and solar panels as a wave-of-the-hand dismissal of future energy shortages.
 

work in progress

Well-Known Member
There may be 7 billion people now living on this earth, but the growth rate of the population is declining, so we are not talking about an infinite amount of people that we have to make room for.
I've posted a few things about population growth previously. A couple of points that need to be stressed are that UN's rosy scenario for a plateau of 9 billion in 2050...with a SLOW, gradual decline afterwards, is based on numbers that haven't factored in the spikes in birth rates in recent years in many parts of the world where the Catholic Church and other conservative factions are denying access to birth control for women; and that 9 billion is a pie-in-the-sky number to start with, since it doesn't deal with the question of whether the world will be able to feed 9 billion people 40 years from now, let alone maintain our present population levels. There are a wide variety of numbers of world population that are trying to use estimates based on individual ecological footprint in the various regions of the world. I think the most likely number of what our planet can sustainably support is two billion -- the number arrived at separately by E.O. Wilson and James Lovelock...but this isn't written in stone! What is clear is that 7 billion is well over the sustainable level, based on present rates of soil depletion, loss of arable land, and declining available water.

Feeding more people would require more fertilizers and more extraction of ground water....and that is just not going to happen! In all likelihood, we are already close to the maximum world population, since at this point in time there are more than 500 million people who are suffering from serious malnutrition, and over 2 billion do not receive enough calories. And since world grain supplies have not risen in a few years and are being lowered by increasing unstable weather worldwide, it's worth asking what happens in the case of major disaster in agriculture? Lester Brown, of the Earth Policy Institute, mentioned a couple of years back, that if that unprecedented heat wave that destroyed grain production in Russia in 2010 happened in the U.S. instead, it would have been a global catastrophe that would have sparked a steep rise in food prices worldwide and led to famine in much of the world. The U.S. grain production is more than four times that of Russia's, so if U.S. wheat, soybeans and corn gets wiped out one year, we may have a cure for population increase that will make the world a much more dangerous place in very short time.

Land can be farmed more effectivly, water can be cleaned.
We may be running out of cheap oil, but that still leaves the oil which is more difficult to get at, and there are such a thing as renewable energy sources.
Haven't even gotten to the issue of oil-dependency in agriculture yet. All of the nitrogen-fixing, oil based fertilizers that is essential right now to support a 7 billion population. That "difficult" oil is more expensive, which will raise food prices, and dirtier - which raises carbon levels even faster, and pushes us over the cliff sooner than later.

In the 1970' durring the oil crises people in Denmark were COLD.
The government could see the flaw in the plan of bying cheap oil from abroad when there was no cheap oil to buy.
They decided to be come self sufficient when it comes to energy.
They decided to start pulling oil out of the north sea even though it was more expencive than bying cheap oil from abroad (people who are cold don't complain about the price of oil :) ).
As the price of oil has gone up, up, up the investment turned out to be a good one.
Now we can see the end of the oil in the north sea. Not today or tomorrow, but it will run out.
So where to get energy?
Denmark is a very windy place, so they decided to invest in windmills.
I just checked the statistics, and as of 2011 28% of the electricity in Denmark is provided by windmills.
There is quite a distance up to 100%, but I think we will make it befor we run out of oil.
I wasn't sure where I read 'windmills' in your post before, and since I already dumped bile on how feasible windmills are going to be for saving civilization previously, I don't have much to add to the list.
 

lunakilo

Well-Known Member
And with all this, if capitalism is such a great incentive and motivator to move to the next level of energy supply -- where is the NEW supply of abundant energy? Windmills? Seriously! They don't supply power when the wind isn't blowing,
Ever heard on batteries?
and they are becoming extremely costly as they become more high tech and require rare exotic metals to build.
Wow, that sounds just like somthing the conservative or liberal party would say :)
The cost of making the windmill is NOT higher that the value of the energy it produces.
Without generous government subsidies, there wouldn't be an industry building windmills today!
They would certainly not be as advanced as they are. But what is your point?
A government has the luxury of not having to make a profit. They need to find a new power source, and they don't need it to be proffitable from day one.
Regardless of how the windmills got there, they produce power.
I've even heard recently that, according to geothermal boosters, England could supply 30% of its electrical needs through geothermal power. I haven't verified the claim, but I suspect that they are talking about some major drilling, which could be costly...but if it is true, it would be a lot better use of alternative energy subsidies than building more windmills along the coasts!
Cool :)
And, for what it's worth, I've learned a little, but don't have expert knowledge about nuclear power...
The problem with neclear power (apart from the occasional Chernobyl) is the waste which takes thousands of years to decay into somthing which isn't deadly.
Not too crazy about nuclear power myself.
One thing is clear -- we are running out of time to fritter away chances to restructure our economies to function without cars and to keep supplying cheap abundant electricity to keep the lights on. Fusion power is always 10 or 20 years away from practicality....I've been hearing this song and dance for over 30 years, and alternatives like SMR's and Geothermal are going to have high startup costs. I don't see how the numbers add up for replacing everything with wind and solar, and I suspect that the boosters are either in position to benefit personally, or just using windmills and solar panels as a wave-of-the-hand dismissal of future energy shortages.
Why without cars? They can run on electricity once the oil runs out.
There are plenty of alternative energy sources (I just mentoned wind because it is widly used where I live).
Solar, wind, water/Hydroelectric, waves, Geothermal,... and there is something to be said for efficient energy use.

Now, how did a question about where the public debt comes from tirn into a discussion of alternative energy sources I wonder :confused:
 

work in progress

Well-Known Member
Ever heard on batteries?
Do you have something costing out the vast array of batteries (dollar costs and resource costs) that would be needed if wind and solar made up all of our electrical production?

Wow, that sounds just like somthing the conservative or liberal party would say :)
The cost of making the windmill is NOT higher that the value of the energy it produces.
I'm not denying there are vested interests (oil and coal) in trying to keep wind out of the energy picture; but until I came across stories like this: Shortage of Rare Earth Minerals May Cripple U.S. High-Tech, Scientists Warn Congress I wasn't aware that there is a big, looming issue trying to provide the resources for all the new planned green energy technologies:
All those hybrid and electric cars, wind turbines and similar clean tech innovations may count for nothing if the U.S. cannot secure a supply of rare earth minerals. Ditto for other advanced telecommunications or defense technologies, scientists told a U.S. House subcommittee.
They would certainly not be as advanced as they are. But what is your point?
A government has the luxury of not having to make a profit. They need to find a new power source, and they don't need it to be proffitable from day one.
Regardless of how the windmills got there, they produce power.
As noted above, we're not just talking about money when we talk about costs! There are also environmental and natural resource costs to every human technology that we use or plan to use in the future.

The problem with neclear power (apart from the occasional Chernobyl) is the waste which takes thousands of years to decay into somthing which isn't deadly.
Not too crazy about nuclear power myself.
I'm not saying I'm a nuclear fan either. I don't know whether SMR's or Thorium reactors, or new proposed 4th Generation reactors are going to live up to their expectations. The risks of the occasional disaster are much graver than conventional technologies, but Chernobyl has not caused near the amount of sickness and deaths that anti-nuclear campaigners like Helen Caldicott frequently claim. The real casualty figures from Chernobyl are a small group of people...certainly much fewer than some chemical industrial disasters like Bhopal caused by Union Carbide 25 years ago were. Caldicott makes a ludicrous claim that some uranium isotopes have no safe levels. Which is completely absurd considering that the A-Bomb tests done back in the late 50's and early 60's when I was very young, dumped much more cesium and strontium into the atmosphere than anything from Chernobyl and even more recently - Fukushima. Although it's worth noting that the meltdowns at Fukushima are far from over, and could still cause a disaster that would destroy northern Japan. And, when it comes to nuclear wastes - whether a nuclear power industry can continue safely in the future is going to depend on whether breeder reactor technology can be developed to burn these waste products. Otherwise, storage of wastes will be a continuing problem...and is really at the heart of the disaster going on at Fukushima.

Why without cars? They can run on electricity once the oil runs out.
There are plenty of alternative energy sources (I just mentoned wind because it is widly used where I live).
Solar, wind, water/Hydroelectric, waves, Geothermal,... and there is something to be said for efficient energy use.
Well that article above notes how new, high tech batteries are going to be a major part of that demand for rare earth elements. Millions of electric cars will of course be added pressure on electrical generation capacity trying to shift over to renewables. We are also having to go more and more to lower grade metals to make stuff like cars -- even iron ores are declining in quality, requiring more processing energy and of course more slag waste products. Cars are a major part of the problem that we just make too much crap to begin with for this world to deal with! And then there are all the roads, the highways that have to be paved with asphalt and add to greenhouse gas levels and block animal migrations, causing more and more extinctions of wildlife. Why can't we develop mass transit better to make cars a thing of the past? Where I live now is the first time I have lived in a city where a car wasn't a necessity of life...and if it wasn't for my wife and my youngest son in high school at the time, I never would have bought my last car three years ago! I told my wife:" make sure you're careful looking after it, because it will be the last car I ever buy for the rest of my life." and I mean it!

Now, how did a question about where the public debt comes from tirn into a discussion of alternative energy sources I wonder :confused:
If you're accusing me of trying to derail your thread, I had no such intentions. I couldn't get a lot out of the video because I don't understand Danish, and my natural inclinations is to try to figure out how issues tie together, rather than try to isolate everything into individual components. That's why I get nauseated by both conservative and liberal economists! Because they both believe in continuous growth to keep making debt-based financing and currencies feasible. I have come to the conclusion that the ecological limits of natural economies are applying the brakes to our hopes and wishes. I would say that I agree with the basic premise that the banks should take the hit themselves, rather than be allowed to offload their debts by taking it out of pensions and private savings. I believe the crisis over there in banking is essentially the same as the one in North America, and has been caused by the need for high returns on investment. Brokers and traders can't get the returns on real investments, so they start hedge funds to bet and speculate on existing markets. There's no way this system could go on indefinitely, and the major banks are demanding a pound of flesh from average citizens to cover their IOU's.

I don't think this system will continue one way or another; but the loss of our present capitalist system will mean an end to living off of equity for most people. I'm intending to start drawing my pension plan at work when I become eligible for full pension in six years, and just continue part time afterwards, because I am skeptical about how much it will end up being worth as these banking crises cascade around the world.
 
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work in progress

Well-Known Member
I've been looking in on how things are going with the latest domino in the European banking system - Spain:
European leaders hope the promise of such a large package, made in an emergency conference call with Spain, will quell rising financial turmoil ahead of elections in Greece that they fear could further shake world markets.
The decision made Spain the fourth and largest European country to agree to accept emergency assistance as part of the continuing debt crisis.
In the fall of 2010, Nouriel Roubini made this this comment when it was just about Ireland's banks: But the nub of the crisis is this: "We have decided to socialize the private losses of the banking system." The costs of the bailouts get added to the balance sheet of national governments, and then the story changes to handwringing about government spending on pensions and services for people.

It looks like a similar game that's being played out first in Greece and Ireland -- make sure the banks are saved by jacking up taxes and cutting and privatizing government services again. So, from the view of an uninformed outsider, it looks like the bankers of Europe are doing pretty much the same thing they did for Wall Street in 2008. And however economists and politicians try to justify it, the end result looks the same as if it was a deliberate scheme to impoverish the middle classes and lower, and kick the money up to the top. And this is how the Mafia and most organized crime syndicates also operate their businesses for what it's worth!
 

Random

Well-Known Member
In the fall of 2010, Nouriel Roubini made this this comment when it was just about Ireland's banks: But the nub of the crisis is this: "We have decided to socialize the private losses of the banking system." The costs of the bailouts get added to the balance sheet of national governments, and then the story changes to handwringing about government spending on pensions and services for people.

It looks like a similar game that's being played out first in Greece and Ireland -- make sure the banks are saved by jacking up taxes and cutting and privatizing government services again. So, from the view of an uninformed outsider, it looks like the bankers of Europe are doing pretty much the same thing they did for Wall Street in 2008. And however economists and politicians try to justify it, the end result looks the same as if it was a deliberate scheme to impoverish the middle classes and lower, and kick the money up to the top. And this is how the Mafia and most organized crime syndicates also operate their businesses for what it's worth!

That's the way it works by design. It is absolutely criminal and outrageous, but few seem to care.
 

lunakilo

Well-Known Member
I've been looking in on how things are going with the latest domino in the European banking system - Spain:
European leaders hope the promise of such a large package, made in an emergency conference call with Spain, will quell rising financial turmoil ahead of elections in Greece that they fear could further shake world markets.
The decision made Spain the fourth and largest European country to agree to accept emergency assistance as part of the continuing debt crisis.
In the fall of 2010, Nouriel Roubini made this this comment when it was just about Ireland's banks: But the nub of the crisis is this: "We have decided to socialize the private losses of the banking system." The costs of the bailouts get added to the balance sheet of national governments, and then the story changes to handwringing about government spending on pensions and services for people.

It looks like a similar game that's being played out first in Greece and Ireland -- make sure the banks are saved by jacking up taxes and cutting and privatizing government services again. So, from the view of an uninformed outsider, it looks like the bankers of Europe are doing pretty much the same thing they did for Wall Street in 2008. And however economists and politicians try to justify it, the end result looks the same as if it was a deliberate scheme to impoverish the middle classes and lower, and kick the money up to the top. And this is how the Mafia and most organized crime syndicates also operate their businesses for what it's worth!
Interesting links.

I also asked my friend wikipedia and found this little section: European sovereign-debt crisis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A number of "appalled economists" have condemned the popular notion in the media that rising debt levels of European countries were caused by excess government spending. According to their analysis, increased debt levels are due to the large bailout packages provided to the financial sector during the late-2000s financial crisis, and the global economic slowdown thereafter. The average fiscal deficit in the euro area in 2007 was only 0.6% before it grew to 7% during the financial crisis. In the same period the average government debt rose from 66% to 84% of GDP. The authors also stressed that fiscal deficits in the euro area were stable or even shrinking since the early 1990s.[31] US economist Paul Krugman named Greece as the only country where fiscal irresponsibility is at the heart of the crisis.[32]

And here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_sovereign-debt_crisis#Ireland
Ireland could have guaranteed bank deposits and let private bondholders who had invested in the banks face losses, but instead borrowed money from the ECB to pay these bondholders, shifting the losses and debt to its taxpayers, with severe negative impact on Ireland's creditworthiness.
 
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