What is the biggest/most negating contradiction in the Bible?

[tumbleweed41]

Danmac, explain this;

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

Or this,

“On the evening of the . . . twenty-first of September [1823] . . . I betook myself to prayer and supplication to Almighty God . . . .
“While I was thus in the act of calling upon God, I discovered a light appearing in my room, which continued to increase until the room was lighter than at noonday, when immediately a personage appeared at my bedside, standing in the air, for his feet did not touch the floor.
“He had on a loose robe of most exquisite whiteness. It was a whiteness beyond anything earthly I had ever seen; nor do I believe that any earthly thing could be made to appear so exceedingly white and brilliant. His hands were naked, and his arms also, a little above the wrists; so, also, were his feet naked, as were his legs, a little above the ankles. His head and neck were also bare. I could discover that he had no other clothing on but this robe, as it was open, so that I could see into his bosom.
“Not only was his robe exceedingly white, but his whole person was glorious beyond description, and his countenance truly like lightning. The room was exceedingly light, but not so very bright as immediately around his person. When I first looked upon him, I was afraid; but the fear soon left me.
“He called me by name, and said unto me that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Moroni; that God had a work for me to do; and that my name should be had for good and evil among all nations, kindreds, and tongues, or that it should be both good and evil spoken of among all people.
“He said there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang. He also said that the fulness of the everlasting Gospel was contained in it, as delivered by the Savior to the ancient inhabitants;


Are these not eyewitness accounts? Do you take them as the gospel truth?

 

[Autodidact]

Explain this then.

Acts 9:27 But Barnabas took him and brought him to the apostles, and related to them how he had seen the Lord in the way, and that he had spoken to him, and how in Damascus he had spoken boldly in the name of Jesus.

Are you saying that Paul wrote Acts? That's not my understanding.

Sure , it's not Berkley Calif around here, but it's far from what you are trying to paint it to be. I know a few atheists that grew up in christian homes. And their still atheists.

I'm not trying to portray anything as anything. I'm into facts. I'm just stating the simple facts that the overwhelming majority of Hoosiers are Christian. Facts matter--to honest people.

Yes. I saw Jesus this morning on a piece of toast. :help:

So no visionary religious experience for you? A significant minority of religious believers experience them. I think they're interesting.

I was born of the Spirit. That was real. And I wasn't having purple microdot flashbacks from the seventies. I think I quit having those.

I'm sure it was.

My Spiritual birth resulted in a paradigm shift that I cannot deny. It was instantaneous. And there was no conscious decision to make a paradigm shift. It was an involuntary chain reaction.

Absolutely.

The crutch syndrome huh? I'm not a big fan of masquerading.

There's nothing wrong or false about crutches or anything that helps people get around.

Here's how I'm starting to see it, after a lot of reading and study.

The only reality we have is inside our brains. We don't access objects or experiences directly, they are always processed through electrons interacting with our senses, and our neurons actively constructing an image or sensation out of that. This is true for all of us, all the time.

Sometimes something happens to our neurons, and our brains automatically go to work constructing an experience from it. Dreams are a good example of this. They're real, in a sense, real expereiences, but do not (accurately) reflect an external reality.

Also our brains themselves are constantly changing, nueron patterns actually changing, as we live, and especially as we grow.

It's completely possible to create a real, vivid, powerful memory in someone of something that never happened.

So, when you were growing up in Indiana, the reality of God and Jesus was incorporated into your growing brain structure. You knew that God existed, that Jesus was His son, etc. as much as you knew that you were your parents' child. Everyone around you knew this, your parents knew this, and had I interviewed you at age 6, you could have told me who Jesus was. Jesus was real to you, although you had never seen Him. Jesus was a real construct in your growing brain.

It doesn't matter very much how consistently your parents attended church, or how they influenced your attitudes, or whether your next-door neighbors were Hindu. What matters is that your brain developed with a knowledge of Jesus that was real to you.

Then at some point in your young adulthood, you were not satisfied with your life; it was not working for you, or you felt a loss or absence of meaning and connection. Furthermore, like all of us, you probably feared death and sought comfort. Someone (or sometimes something) suggested Jesus Christ, and you checked that out in some way, by praying or going to church or something like that. In some way, that idea, accepting Jesus Christ as your savior, offered meaning, hope for eternal happiness, or in some other way seemed to solve a pressing problem in your life. It worked. It made you happy, alleviated your fear, and brought structure to your life. You experienced a paradigm shift, and you liked the new paradigm better.

One of the reasons it worked was that your brain already knew the reality of Jesus, whether you were acting on that or not.

Had your parents been Muslim, and had you grown up in Peshawar, the same thing would likely have happened with Allah and Islam, because that would have been both your formative and adult environment.

Evidence never entered into it, other than on the level of personal experience of greater happiness, fulfillment, community, etc.

Relgionists talk about happiness; atheists talk about evidence. Atheists say things like, "I was a Christian, but gradually began to have doubts about the truth of..." Christians say things like, "I was a miserable [drug addict, gambler, lonely person, drunk etc.] till I found Jesus and eternal life."

Sometimes there is a visionary religious experience, and I can talk about how that fits in, but apparently not in your case.

So, you're not a Christian because of the evidence, and no amount of evidence could make you not be a Christian. That's what faith is.

What I don't really get is why Christians can't just be honest about this?

 

[challupa]

Many religions cannot be honest about this because they believe their religion is the only true one. If they actually taught from the pulpit "our religion is true for us and only one way to understand and worship god", they would not have the same following. It would be religious suicide in some cases. Especially the "one god" religions like Christianity and Islam. Their whole focus is on having the "right" and "only" understanding of god and therefore only they have salvation. This belief in being superior and knowing something others don't know is very enticing. I would imagine if their preachers ever acknowledged that their religion was just one of many ways of knowing god, the numbers would be reduced significantly. People like thinking they are special and know something others don't. Especially those who think that the only way you will understand is if god chooses you to understand. Pretty special eh!:thud:

 

[logician]

I was a Christian long enough to know that most Christians think that a supposed Mark wrote Mark, a supposed Matthew wrote Matthew, a supposed Luke wrote Luke, and a supposed John wrote John , when NONE of the aforementioned is true.

Although it is true that the supposed Jesus wrote nothing. Why was that?

 

[Spiritone]

I was a Christian long enough to know that most Christians think that a supposed Mark wrote Mark, a supposed Matthew wrote Matthew, a supposed Luke wrote Luke, and a supposed John wrote John , when NONE of the aforementioned is true.

Although it is true that the supposed Jesus wrote nothing. Why was that?

The Gospels say, 'according to Mark,' or whoever, meaning according to what Mark taught. The Gospels were passed on verbally until such time as they were written as I said according to the teachings as given from Jesus to his followers.
Jesus didn't need to write anything as he must have known that lack of absolute proof is fodder for a fire that will be kindled forever. imo.

 

[Danmac]

Are you saying that Paul wrote Acts? That's not my understanding.

Luke wrote Acts. The verse talked about how Paul had "seen" the Lord. I believe you said Paul never laid eyes on Jesus. I was pasting a verse that says that he did.

Ac 9:27 But Barnabas took him, and brought him to the apostles, and declared unto them how he had seen the Lord in the way, and that he had spoken to him, and how he had preached boldly at Damascus in the name of Jesus.

I'm not trying to portray anything as anything. I'm into facts. I'm just stating the simple facts that the overwhelming majority of Hoosiers are Christian. Facts matter--to honest people.

Your facts are a little skewed from my "personal" observation.

So no visionary religious experience for you? A significant minority of religious believers experience them. I think they're interesting.

My experience was a paradigm shift as I said. It was something dramatic that took place on the inside. No pretty lights to speak of.

There's nothing wrong or false about crutches or anything that helps people get around.

As long as the goal is to one day be free from the crutches then I can dig it.

Sometimes there is a visionary religious experience, and I can talk about how that fits in, but apparently not in your case.

So, you're not a Christian because of the evidence, and no amount of evidence could make you not be a Christian. That's what faith is.

What I don't really get is why Christians can't just be honest about this?

Actually what happened in my case was this: I was living a miserable existence going from one vice to another, plenty of money, plenty of women, plenty of whatever I wanted and none of it gave me any real satisfaction. Pleasure was more of a momentary escape from my miserable existence. There was a void in my life and everything I tried to fill it with was unsatisfactory. After I had exhausted my search for true happiness I decided to read the Bible and see if it could give me some answers to my madness. For some reason I started with the book of Ecclesiastes, which was written by King Solomon. As I began to read I was awestruck because as he was telling his own experience, he was at the same time telling me mine. He too had exhausted his search for true happiness and in the end he called it vanity. I was intrigued. The Bible captured my attention because it was relating to my story. It was much later before I ever considered converting.

Ok so your saying, "why did you start with the Bible"? I didn't limit my search to the Bible. I left no stone unturned.

 

[challupa]

Luke wrote Acts. The verse talked about how Paul had "seen" the Lord. I believe you said Paul never laid eyes on Jesus. I was pasting a verse that says that he did.

Ac 9:27 But Barnabas took him, and brought him to the apostles, and declared unto them how he had seen the Lord in the way, and that he had spoken to him, and how he had preached boldly at Damascus in the name of Jesus.

Paul never saw or talked to the living Jesus. He saw Jesus in a vision and was blinded for several days from the event. It happened on the road to Damascus where he was going to execute more Christians.

 

[Autodidact]

Luke wrote Acts. The verse talked about how Paul had "seen" the Lord. I believe you said Paul never laid eyes on Jesus. I was pasting a verse that says that he did.

I believe that refers to a religious vision, or purely internal experience, not actual sight.

Ac 9:27 But Barnabas took him, and brought him to the apostles, and declared unto them how he had seen the Lord in the way, and that he had spoken to him, and how he had preached boldly at Damascus in the name of Jesus.

After Jesus died, that is.

Your facts are a little skewed from my "personal" observation.

Sorry, you're mistaken. About 85% of Hoosiers are Christian, regardless of what you say you observe. Tell you what. Ask the next 10 people you meet what their religion is, and tell us the result.

My experience was a paradigm shift as I said. It was something dramatic that took place on the inside. No pretty lights to speak of.

Yes, I understand.

As long as the goal is to one day be free from the crutches then I can dig it.

I'm not putting it down just because it helps people; we all have to get through the day. I'm just observing that your belief did not come into existence because someone showed you evidence, and lack of evidence will not make it go away. It's faith.

Actually what happened in my case was this: I was living a miserable existence going from one vice to another, plenty of money, plenty of women, plenty of whatever I wanted and none of it gave me any real satisfaction. Pleasure was more of a momentary escape from my miserable existence. There was a void in my life and everything I tried to fill it with was unsatisfactory. After I had exhausted my search for true happiness I decided to read the Bible and see if it could give me some answers to my madness. For some reason I started with the book of Ecclesiastes, which was written by King Solomon. As I began to read I was awestruck because as he was telling his own experience, he was at the same time telling me mine. He too had exhausted his search for true happiness and in the end he called it vanity. I was intrigued. The Bible captured my attention because it was relating to my story. It was much later before I ever considered converting.

Interesting. Thanks.

Ok so your saying, "why did you start with the Bible"? I didn't limit my search to the Bible. I left no stone unturned.

No, I didn't say anything of the kind.

So you've read the Tao Te Ching and practiced Buddhist meditation? You've read the qur'an and The Book of Mormon and attended a wiccan observance? You've explored Jewish mysticism and teaching? Wow, I'm impressed.

 

[Autodidact]

But yes, I agree that Paul is an "eye-witness" to his religious vision. I doubt that you want to count religious visions as eye-witness testimony, though, or you'll open up a can of Joseph Smith Syung Yung Moon type worms, not to mention all the schizophrenics in the world.

 

[bossbozz]

Matthew 5:16 Let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your father in heaven.

Matthew 6:1 Be careful not to do your ‘acts of righteousness’ before men, to be seen by them.


Genesis 32:30 So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and my life was preserved.”

Exodus 33:11 The Lord would speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks with his friend.

John 1:18 No one has ever seen God.


Deuteronomy 7:1-2 When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations . . . then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy.

20:10-17 When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. . . . This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby. However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the Lord your God has commanded you.

Jeremiah 29:11 "For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future"

 

[Danmac]

I believe that refers to a religious vision, or purely internal experience, not actual sight. After Jesus died, that is.

That is correct. But because of the time-line, and Paul's geographical operations, he most likely had run ins with Jesus before the crucifixion. I can't prove that, but other circumstances tend to point in that direction.

Sorry, you're mistaken. About 85% of Hoosiers are Christian, regardless of what you say you observe. Tell you what. Ask the next 10 people you meet what their religion is, and tell us the result.

If your stats are correct, I would have to say that the state of things are quickly deteriorating here as in every other place. At least as far as church going is concerned. Street drugs have captured all of America. Towns big and small. My city is plagued with heroin and methadone. These aren't church goers

I'm not putting it down just because it helps people; we all have to get through the day. I'm just observing that your belief did not come into existence because someone showed you evidence, and lack of evidence will not make it go away. It's faith.

My personal experience was real to me. I cannot prove it to you, but I cannot deny it to myself.

So you've read the Tao Te Ching and practiced Buddhist meditation? You've read the qur'an and The Book of Mormon and attended a wiccan observance? You've explored Jewish mysticism and teaching? Wow, I'm impressed.

There is a proverb that says: It is foolish to form an opinion about something that you have never studied. Prov 18:13

To me that means that I must give everything the benefit of the doubt until I can dismiss it or embrace it with good cause. I have never practiced any of the things that you have mentioned, but I have studied them all. At least to the point that I can dismiss them with a clear conscience.

 

[logician]

1.The Gospels say, 'according to Mark,' or whoever, meaning according to what Mark taught. The Gospels were passed on verbally until such time as they were written as I said according to the teachings as given from Jesus to his followers.

2.Jesus didn't need to write anything as he must have known that lack of absolute proof is fodder for a fire that will be kindled forever. imo.

1.There is no evidence supporting this statement whatsoever.

2. This sentence makes no sense. Most all famous people have written something, many of them volumes of material.

 

[Walkntune]

1.There is no evidence supporting this statement whatsoever.

2. This sentence makes no sense. Most all famous people have written something, many of them volumes of material.

Spoken Word is way more powerful than the written word.

 

[challupa]

Spoken Word is way more powerful than the written word.

Only if you can hear it!

 

[Spiritone]

Spoken Word is way more powerful than the written word.

Exactly, Walkntune.

His words have been remembered and quote more times than any famous person. Just realizing how advanced in wisdom those words were and are today tells us that there were reasons for everything he did.
Written words have been contradicted--anyone can write anything.
It's what the words say that count.
When I speak of Jesus I'm not thinking of any religious denomination of Christianity, only what he gave as a means to live fully, physically and spiritually.
I don't think we have to be Mr./ Ms. Pious as is often put into the teachings, just humanly considerate of all others and all living things.

 

[Spiritone]

1.There is no evidence supporting this statement whatsoever.

2. This sentence makes no sense. Most all famous people have written something, many of them volumes of material.

The Gospels are known to have been written after the apostles had gone out in different directions to speak the teachings. Those who later wrote them quoted as best they could what had been passed down. Maybe the apostles wrote about them and maybe not, but it does not change anything.
Theologians and researchers etc. verify this as best it can be known.

 

[McBell]

His words have been remembered and quote more times than any famous person.

And?
Does that somehow make them right?
I don't think so.
It is nothing more than an appeal to popularity.

Just realizing how advanced in wisdom those words were and are today tells us that there were reasons for everything he did.

Wow.
Are we talking about the same Bible?
The Holy Bible?
Genesis to Revelation, the Bible?

Written words have been contradicted--anyone can write anything.

Ah, the Bible does enter into the picture after all.

It's what the words say that count.

Now if only you can get the Christians to agree on what those written words say.....
Good luck with that.

 

[Autodidact]

That is correct. But because of the time-line, and Paul's geographical operations, he most likely had run ins with Jesus before the crucifixion. I can't prove that, but other circumstances tend to point in that direction.

O.K., fine so will you stop holding up Paul as an example of an eye-witness? There is no eye-witness testimony anywhere in the gospels. None.

If your stats are correct, I would have to say that the state of things are quickly deteriorating here as in every other place. At least as far as church going is concerned. Street drugs have captured all of America. Towns big and small. My city is plagued with heroin and methadone. These aren't church goers

Sure they are. btw, those same statistics come up in every study, including the religious organization, Barna. It is true that religious participation is going down in the U.S.

My personal experience was real to me. I cannot prove it to you, but I cannot deny it to myself.
There is a proverb that says: It is foolish to form an opinion about something that you have never studied. Prov 18:13

I'm sure it was, just like all religious believers personal experiences, including all the ones that contradict yours. I've studied the phenomenon a lot; it's fascinating. Have you read the research on it?

To me that means that I must give everything the benefit of the doubt until I can dismiss it or embrace it with good cause. I have never practiced any of the things that you have mentioned, but I have studied them all. At least to the point that I can dismiss them with a clear conscience.

That would be a no?

 

[Autodidact]

Spoken Word is way more powerful than the written word.

What an odd assertion.

 

[McBell]

What an odd assertion.

I am guessing that you are not supposed to read it but have it read to you.....?
Yes?
Maybe?