What is Man that God is mindful of him?

[madhatter85]

#1 this is not a debate about the existence of God so if you want to make Athiestic comments please find another venue.

This question was brought up by Thief Here and I believe it to be a worthy topic of debate.

What is Man, that a supposed almighty God, who can control everything in the universe and create and destroy at will, would care about what happens to us or how we live our lives?

It is simple, in a perfect environment, Just as parents love children and want them to grow up and become like them. They take joy in their posterity.

"I cannot believe in any of the creeds of the different denominations, because they all have some things in them I cannot subscribe to, though all of them have some truth. I want to come up into the presence of God, and learn all things; but the... creeds set up stakes [limits], and say, ‘Hitherto shalt thou come, and no further; which I cannot subscribe to." - Joseph Smith

Most religious creeds do impose limits on what we can achieve in heaven. It does not make sense that an all powerful God would need us to love him.

"God the Eternal Father did not give that first great commandment because He needs us to love Him. His power and glory are not diminished should we disregard, deny, or even defile His name. His influence and dominion extend through time and space independent of our acceptance, approval, or admiration.
No, God does not need us to love Him. But oh, how we need to love God!
For what we love determines what we seek.
What we seek determines what we think and do.
What we think and do determines who we are—and who we will become.
We are created in the image of our heavenly parents; we are God’s spirit children. Therefore, we have a vast capacity for love—it is part of our spiritual heritage." - Dieter F Uchtdorf Source

I propose that Man is of worth to God because we are his literal offspring with the potential to become like him. Else why would an all powerful god care? certainly an all-powerful god does not need mere mortals to flatter his ego.

 

[Madhuri]

My belief is somewhat different.
God is Love itself. Everything is a part of God. God loves us, and -everything- equally as it is all a part of His being. Love is a result of intimate connection with another person/thing; when we love, it becomes a part of our self. The more we experience and expand our consciousness, the more we love. God is the perfect awareness of everything. He/She/It is the greatest lover and cares equally for every part of His/Her/It's self.

 

[ManTimeForgot]

#1 this is not a debate about the existence of God so if you want to make Athiestic comments please find another venue.

This question was brought up by Thief Here and I believe it to be a worthy topic of debate.

What is Man, that a supposed almighty God, who can control everything in the universe and create and destroy at will, would care about what happens to us or how we live our lives?

It is simple, in a perfect environment, Just as parents love children and want them to grow up and become like them. They take joy in their posterity.

"I cannot believe in any of the creeds of the different denominations, because they all have some things in them I cannot subscribe to, though all of them have some truth. I want to come up into the presence of God, and learn all things; but the... creeds set up stakes [limits], and say, ‘Hitherto shalt thou come, and no further; which I cannot subscribe to." - Joseph Smith

Most religious creeds do impose limits on what we can achieve in heaven. It does not make sense that an all powerful God would need us to love him.

"God the Eternal Father did not give that first great commandment because He needs us to love Him. His power and glory are not diminished should we disregard, deny, or even defile His name. His influence and dominion extend through time and space independent of our acceptance, approval, or admiration.
No, God does not need us to love Him. But oh, how we need to love God!
For what we love determines what we seek.
What we seek determines what we think and do.
What we think and do determines who we are—and who we will become.
We are created in the image of our heavenly parents; we are God’s spirit children. Therefore, we have a vast capacity for love—it is part of our spiritual heritage." - Dieter F Uchtdorf Source

I propose that Man is of worth to God because we are his literal offspring with the potential to become like him. Else why would an all powerful god care? certainly an all-powerful god does not need mere mortals to flatter his ego.

How is anything which is created not a "child" of "God" to a similar extent? Or should we presuppose that sentience requires "divine intervention" to achieve/possess, in which case the question becomes are not all living beings of sentience "children of God?"

MTF

 

[cardero]

madhatter writes: It is simple, in a perfect environment, Just as parents love children and want them to grow up and become like them. They take joy in their posterity.

I do not think that GOD would consider this a perfect and simple environment.

Do not instill in them (children) your incomplete PURPOSEs and desires.

HELLO IT’S ME: An Interview With GOD
Chapter: Life After Death or Living On An Angel’s Wages
Pg: 160

Madhatter writes: I propose that Man is of worth to God because we are his literal offspring with the potential to become like him.

I contend that not only does GOD not want us to see Him as a father figure….

I AM not YOUR Father, I cannot take full credit for YOUR species on earth. That, as I have mentioned before, was modified and re-created by other intelligent entities. Gods? Most assuredly.

HELLO IT’S ME: An Interview With GOD
Chapter: The One True GOD?
Pg: 320

…but feels more compelled and concerned about coming into our own.

I assure YOU the only pleasure I derive comes from YOU experiencing and discovering YOU.

HELLO IT’S ME: An Interview With GOD
Chapter: Death Before Life or All The World’s A Stage
Pg: 85

 

[Evandr]

I do not think that GOD would consider this a perfect and simple environment.

If we accept that God set up this enviroment for some greater purpose then it must needs be perfect for that purpose, it is man that molds it and that molding will define judgment.

I contend that not only does GOD not want us to see Him as a father figure but feels more compelled and concerned about coming into our own

Coming into our own.... that is as good a way to put it as any. Ask yourself this, if God is all powerful and in complete control of all intellegence and the creater of all things and all things are His, then how does such a being experience eternal increase?

The answer is simple - Eternal increase come from posterity - not just a bunch of harp playing angles that stand around all day singing the praises of God, but real children for whom those, proven worthy in these testing fires of mortal probation, will be endowed with all the Father has so they may continue to grow and provide increase for themselves and therefore the father.

It is simply the concept of family, I grow when my children grow, as does my father and his father before him.

 

[cardero]

Evadr writes: If we accept that God set up this enviroment for some greater purpose then it must needs be perfect for that purpose, it is man that molds it and that molding will define judgment.

If the environment we are speaking of is earth than this perfect purpose could be nothing short of paradise (of which the earth is not). In order for the earth to be perfect, the caretakers (humans) must also be perfect (of which we are not). I believe that most of the decisions concerning the condition of this planet will have to be eventually made by humans.

Evadr writes: Coming into our own.... that is as good a way to put it as any. Ask yourself this, if God is all powerful and in complete control of all intellegence and the creater of all things and all things are His, then how does such a being experience eternal increase?

As mentioned previously, I believe that GOD is not the creator of all things and GOD would explain that He does not have any exclusive rights to anything physical or spiritual. I believe that GOD does not have a vested interest in how many humans occupy this planet or what kind of social institutions we set up for ourselves.

I believe that once GOD and the other creators created the model for a living environment and the means for spiritual entities to occupy and experience physical existences their purpose was finished. The rest is up to humans (this is our posterity).

Evadr writes: The answer is simple - Eternal increase come from posterity - not just a bunch of harp playing angles that stand around all day singing the praises of God, but real children for whom those, proven worthy in these testing fires of mortal probation, will be endowed with all the Father has so they may continue to grow and provide increase for themselves and therefore the father.

It is simply the concept of family, I grow when my children grow, as does my father and his father before him.

I think you may be forgetting that the souls that inhabit humans are also eternal (we are also gods). We have our own purposes, experiences and desires to create that may be far removed from any plan, purpose or desire of GOD. I know that this may complicate your reasons to believe in a God who judges, who has moral preferences, who expects obedience or who could be disappointed as a Father is disappointed in a child but there really is no way to offend GOD in this capacity. The reason that GOD created this existence is because He (and others) loved to create this for spiritual entities to inhabit and experience. We also know that GOD loves unconditionally, to place any expectation or condition on our physical incarnations, our behavior or existence is unGODly.

 

[madhatter85]

If the environment we are speaking of is earth than this perfect purpose could be nothing short of paradise (of which the earth is not).

I propose differently. It is only through adversity that we learn and are tested. pain and suffering does bring us to know the sweetness of pleasure and comfort.

In order for the earth to be perfect, the caretakers (humans) must also be perfect (of which we are not). I believe that most of the decisions concerning the condition of this planet will have to be eventually made by humans.

I believe we have a responsibility to care for the planet as we have been made stewards over it for a season. But the ultimate perfection of this planet we will never be a part of in mortality.

As mentioned previously, I believe that GOD is not the creator of all things and GOD would explain that He does not have any exclusive rights to anything physical or spiritual.

Interesting proposition. However, I would adjust that to say He has exclusivity where we (his children) are concerned. and I wouldn't say creator, I would say organizer.

I believe that GOD does not have a vested interest in how many humans occupy this planet or what kind of social institutions we set up for ourselves.

I would completely disagree. He has inspired men thoughout the ages to come up with amazing inventions and advances in all fields of scientific research. Also, he does have a vested interest because he desires his posterity to increase. If he did not have a vested interest, as you say, he would not talk to anyone here (including you or me). Why would he waste his time?

I believe that once GOD and the other creators created the model for a living environment and the means for spiritual entities to occupy and experience physical existences their purpose was finished. The rest is up to humans (this is our posterity).

Your proposing a sea turtle environment (they drop their eggs on the beach and never come back), which cannot coexist with the model of a loving God. Which is a model i cannot abide it just does not make sense. you also propose that this earth is the end of our increase. I again have to disagree. If we are truly spiritual beings in a mortal tabernacle, then why would our increase end after death and/or resurrection

I think you may be forgetting that the souls that inhabit humans are also eternal (we are also gods), we have our own purposes, experiences and desires to create that may be far removed from any plan, purpose or desire of GOD. I know that this may complicate your reasons to believe in a God who judges, who has moral preferences, who expects obedience or who could be disappointed as a Father is disappointed in a child but there really is no way to offend GOD in this capacity. The reason that GOD created this existence is because He (and others) loved to create this for spiritual entities to inhabit and experience. We also know that GOD loves unconditionally, to place any expectation or condition on our physical incarnations, our behavior or existence is unGODly.

You are contradicting yourself, You say God has no vested interest in us, yet that he loves us? these two ideas are by definition contradictory.
I propose, that if God is truly a perfected being, do you believe his house would be one of chaos? Would his house not be one of order? His "moral preferences," as you put, are definitely a requirement of Godhood. That the things which he condemns only cause us to be slaves to our physical bodies, to our lusts, appetites, and desires. Would not a perfect God have control over these things?

 

[cardero]

Madhatter writes: I propose differently. It is only through adversity that we learn and are tested. pain and suffering does bring us to know the sweetness of pleasure and comfort.

Only if this is the purpose that one is trying to accomplish. Someone else may not desire comfort and may have chosen to incarnate without any purpose to be tested, to suffer or to cause or inflict pain. It really depends on what reason one chooses to incarnate into a physical existence. Just because someone chooses an existence without suffering, being tested or receiving pain should not be seen as a purpose unfulfilled. Our existences (both physical and spiritual) are too complicated and our purposes too varied for us to review as comparable or competitive to other existences.

Madhatter writes: I believe we have a responsibility to care for the planet as we have been made stewards over it for a season. But the ultimate perfection of this planet we will never be a part of in mortality.

I believe that too but it would be very difficult to convince someone else with a different purpose. If one wants to make the world a better place than one has to make the necessary arrangements to do so. For example, if you drive through the countryside we can see where people have different ideas for their surroundings.

Let’s say that the first house you come across keeps their lawn mowed and they may have planted flowers and landscaped their area with decorative bushes.

If we look at the second house, those owners may be interested in just keeping the grass mowed and may not to do any fancy external landscaping.

The house next to that one could be seen as an eyesore, the lawn hasn’t been mowed in weeks, there are children’s toys scattered throughout the yard. They may have pets and haven’t picked up after them in months.

This last house may prefer to keep that appearance but there may be no way to convince the owners of that property that their yard should look like the first or second house.

Madhatter writes: Interesting proposition. However, I would adjust that to say He has exclusivity where we (his children) are concerned. and I wouldn't say creator, I would say organizer.

I think this is mainly a human projection that some have colored GOD with. The interesting prospect about this is that humans usually do not go the full length that they expect God would go. Bill Cosby used to joke with his children and tell them “I brought you into this world, and I can take you out” but rarely would we find humans going to these extremes if their children were a disappointment to them.

The best ways to view parents is to view them as caretakers. Yes, we do offer spiritual entities the window of opportunity to incarnate into this physical existence. Yes, we do have to find the means, the responsibility and the time to shelter, clothe and feed them if we want them to survive but we do not by any means own our children. We cannot expect them to adopt our beliefs, hold fast to our teachings, follow our advice on what is good or what is bad, take over the family business or follow in our purposes. The individuals that come through a human coupling are most likely dedicated to a previous planned purpose that may not correspond to what their parents want, desire or expect. The best we can do is to love them unconditionally.

Madhatter writes: I would completely disagree. He has inspired men thoughout the ages to come up with amazing inventions and advances in all fields of scientific research. Also, he does have a vested interest because he desires his posterity to increase. If he did not have a vested interest, as you say, he would not talk to anyone here (including you or me). Why would he waste his time?

I would credit GOD (or any of the other gods that helped create our existence or assist in our purposes) with creating our capacity for intelligence and the physical abilities needed to create and invent (you have to admit, opposable thumbs was a good idea). One should also be careful with the reasoning you propose because there are a lot of other (positive and negative, physical and spiritual) entities who can inspire and influence us. Another trap about giving GOD all the credit is that other people could argue about where GOD put all those secrets to all the cures for all the diseases. Why is GOD withholding all this inspiration and understanding from us (that sort of thing)? That is why I use the model that GOD created the sandbox (I will even throw in the bucket and the shovel) but what we create and invent with that sand is entirely up to us.

Madhatter writes: Your proposing a sea turtle environment (they drop their eggs on the beach and never come back), which cannot coexist with the model of a loving God. Which is a model i cannot abide it just does not make sense. you also propose that this earth is the end of our increase. I again have to disagree. If we are truly spiritual beings in a mortal tabernacle, then why would our increase end after death and/or resurrection

I don’t think our increase ends after death just our physical purpose and incarnation. There will always be things to experience, other places and purposes to incarnate into. The interesting part about our time on earth is that through free will we can change our purpose at any time. An unfulfilled purpose is not a wasted existence. I do not view death and heaven as a place of rest, I view it as my original home (most likely with a whole set of different responsibilities and purposes).

Madhatter writes: You are contradicting yourself, You say God has no vested interest in us, yet that he loves us?

No, that is not what I said. Here is the original posting.

Cardero writes: I believe that GOD does not have a vested interest in how many humans occupy this planet or what kind of social institutions we set up for ourselves.

What I was trying to bring out is that GOD has no prospects for us to be fruitful or to multiply the earth. GOD has no plans for humans in regards to marriage and family institutions. If you want to get married, you will probably get married, if it is within your purpose to start a family, you will probably start a family. If you find yourself to be the only person on earth and you want to be a Republican/atheist/alcoholic/ Patriots fan/homosexual, GOD will not stand in your way or contrarily intervene.

 

[madhatter85]

Only if this is the purpose that one is trying to accomplish. Someone else may not desire comfort and may have chosen to incarnate without any purpose to be tested, to suffer or to cause or inflict pain. It really depends on what reason one chooses to incarnate into a physical existence. Just because someone chooses an existence without suffering, being tested or receiving pain should not be seen as a purpose unfulfilled. Our existneces (both physical and spiritual) are too complicated and our purposes too varied for us to review as comparable or competitive to other existences.

Let me ask you, Do you think you would know not to touch a hot stove with your bare hands if you had not experienced it yourself or, at least empathized with the pain someone else experienced by touching the host stove with a bare hand? I don't believe that you would.

I believe that too but it would be very difficult to convince someone else with a different purpose. If one wants to make the world a better place than one has to make the necessary arrangements to do so. For example, if you drive through the countryside we can see where people have different ideas for their surroundings.

Let’s say that the first house you come across keeps their lawn mowed and they may have planted flowers and landscaped their area with decorative bushes.

If we look at the second house, those owners may be interested in just keeping the grass mowed and may not to do any fancy external landscaping.

The house next to that one could be an eyesore, the lawn hasn’t been mowed in weeks, there are children’s toys scattered throughout the yard. They may have pets and haven’t picked up after them in months.

This last house may prefer to keep that appearance but there may be no way to convince the owners of that property that their yard should look like the first or second house.

They may have different ideas, but i don't see how this applies to perfection of the world in mortality. Different ideas are different ideas. However, perfection comes from absolute truth and nothing less.

I think this is mainly a human projection that some have colored GOD with. The interesting prospect about this is that humans usually do not go the full length that they expect God would go. Bill Cosby used to joke with his children and tell them “I brought you into this world, and I can take you out” but rarely would we find humans going to these extremes if their children were a disappointment to them.

My mother used to joke like that too. But that is besides the point. You're looking at it the wrong way. It;s not that God will cast people out from his presence who cannot abide his laws. It's that those who cannot abide his law are unable to be in his presence as a natural consequence of imperfection. (which in LDS belief, is why a Savior was necessary and planned from before the foundation of the world because nobody would be perfect and justice is an eternal principle, just as newtons law of motion)

The best ways to view parents is to view them as caretakers. Yes, we do offer spiritual entities the window of opportunity to incarnate into this physical existence. Yes, we do have to find the means, the responsibility and the time to shelter, clothe and feed them if we want them to survive but we do not by any means own our children. We cannot expect them to adopt our beliefs, hold fast to our teachings, follow our advice on what is good or what is bad, take over the family business or follow in our purposes. The individuals that come through a human coupling are most likely dedicated to a previous planned purpose that may not correspond to what their parents want, desire or expect. The best we can do is to love them unconditionally.

We agree to a point within this paragraph. But, if God does not have a vested interest in us, what purpose is there?

I would credit GOD (or any of the other gods that helped create our existence or assist in our purposes) with the capacity for intelligence and the physical abilities needed to create and invent ( you have to admit, opposable thumbs was a good idea). You have to be careful with this reasoning because there are a lot of other (physical and spiritual) entities who can inspire and influence us. Another trap about giving GOD all the credit is that other people could argue about where GOD put all those secrets to all the cures for all the diseases. Why is GOD withholding all this inspiration and understanding from us (that sort of thing)? That is why I use the model that GOD created the sandbox (I will even throw in the bucket and the shovel) but what we create and invent with that sand is entirely up to us.

I do give God all the credit for designing our human forms in his likeness, He went through the same process we are currently going through. I don't believe that family life on this earth was not patterned after God's family life through the eternities.

I don’t think our increase ends after death just our physical purpose and incarnation. There will always be things to experience, other places and purposes to incarnate into. The interesting part about our time on earth is that through free will we can change our purpose at any time. An unfulfilled purpose is not a wasted existence. I do not view death and heaven as a place of rest, I view it as my original home (most likely with a whole set of different responsibilities and purposes).

I would disagree, an unfulfilled purpose is wasted existence. If we do not fulfill the measure of our creation then organizing us is a waste.
We do agree that Heaven is not a place of rest. That just as God labored to organize us and provide us a plan whereby we can return and be prepared to receive our inheritance, we too will labor in the same capacity.

What I was trying to bring out is that GOD has no prospects for us to be fruitful or to multiply the earth. GOD has no plans for humans in regards to marriage and family institutions. If you want to get married, you will probably get married, if it is your purpose to start a family, you will probably start a family. If you find yourself to be the only person on earth and you want to be a Republican/atheist/alcoholic/ Patriots fan/homosexual, GOD will not stand in your way or contrarily intervene.

I have to disagree, God created Man and Woman with all of the parts necessary for procreation. I don't believe that God designed anything on, above, beneath, or beyond this earth that has no purpose. and fulfilling the measure of each creations purpose is what we are indeed to do.

 

[cardero]

Madhatter writes: They may have different ideas, but i don't see how this applies to perfection of the world in mortality. Different ideas are different ideas. However, perfection comes from absolute truth and nothing less.

I think you may be missing the point that there are some people who do not desire perfection in this physical existence. There are two types of truths to consider, universal and personal. There is no universal truth that the third owner has to keep their house as beautiful and organized as the first and second. The personal truth is that the owner of the house (if you ask them) may prefer that their property looks that way.

Madhatter writes: It's that those who cannot abide his law are unable to be in his presence as a natural consequence of imperfection. (which in LDS belief, is why a Savior was necessary and planned from before the foundation of the world because nobody would be perfect and justice is an eternal principle, just as newtons law of motion)

My belief is that we were in GOD’s presence when we originated as spiritual entities. As spiritual entities I believe that GOD considers us as equals.

I think it has been evidenced quite clearly that GOD does not have an invested interest in human’s laws or morals and that any justice meted after death at the reward of “being with GOD” fails to entice the correct understanding from any action instigated by the most purposeful “wrongdoer”.

Sending a savior has also brought up some other interesting controversies many of those reasons have been fully discussed on this forum. I think it would be more practical to consider another possibility towards why people “sin” and what this holds towards the purpose of the “sinner” and the individual they may have “sinned” against. It won’t be easy though, because in order to understand this possibility, one must invest a great deal of understanding in another individual and have full access to the life and purpose that they planned for their existence.

Madhatter writes: We agree to a point within this paragraph. But, if God does not have a vested interest in us, what purpose is there?

It certainly would not be for the purpose of doing GOD’s will. If it were GOD’s will that we would be doing, it would be GOD’s experience and not our own. GOD does have the power and capability to incarnate into earth and could choose to enact and fulfill any physical purpose He wanted to. I would say that the reason we choose to incarnate into a physical existence is too experience. I know that this must sound vague but there are too many reasons and so many opportunities why spiritual entities would choose a physical incarnation.

Madhatter writes: I do give God all the credit for designing our human forms in his likeness, He went through the same process we are currently going through.

The NIV and the KJV has that man was created in GOD’s “image”. Image very well could be explained as GOD’s thought or imagination.

Madhatter writes: I don't believe that family life on this earth was not patterned after God's family life through the eternities.

Actually, I do not perceive other entities as specific clans; I would consider every entity (spiritual and physical) as family.

Madhatter writes: I would disagree, an unfulfilled purpose is wasted existence.

If that is the way you feel about it then it would be in your personal responsibility to remember what this purpose is and maybe doing it correctly in this existence. If not, you have the ability to reincarnate and do it again (perhaps better) and possibly add a few more purposes to that existence.

Madhatter writes: If we do not fulfill the measure of our creation then organizing us is a waste.

You forgot to mention that it would be a tremendous disappointment to this very discouraged creator who was trying to organize us.

Madhatter writes: That just as God labored to organize us and provide us a plan whereby we can return and be prepared to receive our inheritance, we too will labor in the same capacity.

I don’t think we can agree with the plans, the fulfillment or the rewards. GOD and I do not have that kind of understanding and relationship.

Madhatter writes: I have to disagree, God created Man and Woman with all of the parts necessary for procreation.

As far as people wanting to start a family, this is a very Natural way to go but if the choice, purpose and conditions are not within an individual to desire, want or begin a family, it’s not going to happen for Nature or for GOD.

Madhatter writes: I don't believe that God designed anything on, above, beneath, or beyond this earth that has no purpose. and fulfilling the measure of each creations purpose is what we are indeed to do.

If it helps you to understand, consider this existence like a movie. You are here to create your own story (or movie) on the budget and limitations that you have. You are very dedicated to this purposeful production because you want to make this movie as close to your perceived vision as possible. You are not creating this to appease any outside critiques you are producing this because you wanted to. I believe GOD has watched a lot of movies. I believe that GOD does not critique them.

 

[Evandr]

I think you may be missing the point that there are some people who do not desire perfection in this physical existence. There are two types of truths to consider, universal and personal. There is no universal truth that the third owner has to keep their house as beautiful and organized as the first and second. The personal truth is that the owner of the house (if you ask them) may prefer that their property looks that way.

Cardero, What you are proposing is akin to a group of students laboring a long time in a place of learning, a place where great effort is invested in physical and/oracademic growth and then, during the time of testing, that period where the environment is controlled while the test is being administered, some of those being tested demonstrate a complete lack of concern about how well they do or if they even pass the test at all.

My belief is that we were in GOD’s presence when we originated as spiritual entities. As spiritual entities I believe that GOD considers us as equals.

We are Gods equals? Better get a handle on that. We have the ability to progress to that point but to say we are already there does two things, it diminishes the glory of God in way I cannot even begin to imagin and it invalidates any purpose for mortality to begin with.

I think it has been evidenced quite clearly that GOD does not have an invested interest in human’s laws or morals and that any justice meted after death at the reward of “being with GOD” fails to entice the correct understanding from any action instigated by the most purposeful “wrongdoer”.

There is nothing clear about your stance at all. We are the source of God’s eternal increase. It is a well established fact that mercy cannot rob justice and therefore to obtain all that the father has requires a very specific procedure of learning and growth. That reality makes the establishment of rules and procedures a must and thusly makes our responsibility to measure up a foregone conclusion. Remember, the growth of any academic discipline requires the teachers to have proven themselves worthy and capable to teach in that discipline. Given that the academia of God has reached its pinnacle precludes any further growth of knowledge, but the power associated with such knowledge and privilege certainly does establish the requirement that a person must groom themselves morally, ethically, and in every other way, to be worthy to receive that glory and then be tested in a manner that eliminates any question, even in the mind of the person being tested, that they are worthy to be entrusted with such power. The obtaining of such worthiness is the glory of God and the eternal increase spoken of.

Sending a savior has also brought up some other interesting controversies many of those reasons have been fully discussed on this forum. I think it would be more practical to consider another possibility towards why people “sin” and what this holds towards the purpose of the “sinner” and the individual they may have “sinned” against. It won’t be easy though, because in order to understand this possibility, one must invest a great deal of understanding in another individual and have full access to the life and purpose that they planned for their existence.

Consider the following. You are a trainer who has vested a great deal of time and effort in training your son to be able to one day take his place beside you as a trainer. The time of training comes to an end because it has been determined that the son has gained all that they can in their pretrial growth and will never become more able than they are at the time of testing. As the test proceeds the son stops at every challenge and proceeds to decide for himself how to complete it, that is his right. Are we to say that walking around the challenge without meeting it as it was intended to be met is good enough? Would it be wise to allow the son to “sin” against the trainer by attempting to alter the requirements of a perfect plan when any such alteration would diminish the plan and make it less than what it is? If allowed, such an attitude toward perfection would, in time throttle sustained growth causing the ultimate destruction of the required order and chaos would be the end result. In short it is not the right of the student to dictate the terms of the test and then expect to be honored beside those who pass the test as intended.

Mortality is our time of testing but there is a catch, any person guilty of sin cannot answer the ends of the law and the demands of justice for themselves, in other words, once guilty of sin they have already failed the test. In such a case a mediator is required. This mediator must be able to answer the ends of the law and the demands of justice AND be authorized and able to alter the trial sufficiently that the person being tested has the ability of passing the test by growing beyond the disposition to sin. Thus is the role of Jesus Christ in the eternal progression of man. In short, we are not released from the necessity to measure up, but we are also not condemned to having failed before the test is completed.

 

[Mr Cheese]

Question:

Where does God end and man begin?

 

[Evandr]

It certainly would not be for the purpose of doing GOD’s will. If it were GOD’s will that we would be doing, it would be GOD’s experience and not our own. GOD does have the power and capability to incarnate into earth and could choose to enact and fulfill any physical purpose He wanted to. I would say that the reason we choose to incarnate into a physical existence is too experience. I know that this must sound vague but there are too many reasons and so many opportunities why spiritual entities would choose a physical incarnation.

You are partially correct. We are here to experience and the decision to be here was our own (Lucifer, the son of the morning, and his followers chose not to be here thusly making them capable of no further progression which required them to become separated from the father because they could no longer abide His presence), This mortal probation is necessary to become like our Heavenly Father. You miss the mark by failing to realize that it is not the Father’s physical purposes we are dealing with; it is the Father’s intent that we become capable of dealing with our own. And with regard to our experiences not being our own, the statement is a stark oxymoron.

The NIV and the KJV has that man was created in GOD’s “image”. Image very well could be explained as GOD’s thought or imagination.

I do not think it is our Heavenly Father’s intent and purpose to confuse us with information designed to save us yet so frought with possible alternative meanings that the way cannot be made clear. I admit that some of what the Lord has given us demands the seeking for understanding, but that way has been made open to us through SINCERE prayer and the gifts of the Holy Ghost, not to mention living prophets. We are His children, why would anyone choose to look for an alternate meaning to “in His image”?

Actually, I do not perceive other entities as specific clans; I would consider every entity (spiritual and physical) as family.

True, the whole plan is built around the concept of family. It appears that your reference to clans is an attempt to indicate a separation of family units, each unconnected with family ties to one another. There is no such condition in the realms of God, we are all part of the same family but only those who can safely wield the power of God are allowed to do so. Any other stance on the issue of power and ability would quickly reduce the condition of the entire state of existence to “matter unorganized”

If that is the way you feel about it then it would be in your personal responsibility to remember what this purpose is and maybe doing it correctly in this existence. If not, you have the ability to reincarnate and do it again (perhaps better) and possibly add a few more purposes to that existence.

The purpose for our existence could not be more complete. Our spiritual character previous to this mortal probation was at its pinnacle and needs this time of probation and testing before any further progress can be made. I believe that growth and the purposes of God extend far beyond the grave but reincarnation would serve no purpose. There are things that must be done in the flesh but not all things. I believe that a person who rejects the purposes of God in favor of their own supposed wisdom and course in mortality is making a huge mistake and will forever lament it. I also believe that our Lord’s perfect sense of love and justice make reservation for those who have come and gone in mortality without the opportunity to understand and then choose what they will and won’t do with regard to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I believe that everyone will ultimately be given the opportunity to choose before they are judged as to those choices.

You forgot to mention that it would be a tremendous disappointment to this very discouraged creator who was trying to organize us.

He wasn’t trying to organize us, He did. By virtue of free agency justice can have claim on us to our exaltation or our ceasing of forward progress (damnation) somewhere short of exaltation. It is our choices that dictate our final position in the eternities. God creates and provides but we must walk the path ourselves, a journey that all can complete successfully if they would simply keep their eyes on the mark and follow the path laid out so plainly by Jesus Christ. It was Christ’s calling and mission to mark the path and it is a person destined to miss the mark who fails to heed to road signs marking the proper path.

I don’t think we can agree with the plans, the fulfillment or the rewards. GOD and I do not have that kind of understanding and relationship.

That is a sad reality on your part, one that I do not have to deal with. The Lord and I do not need an understanding, I am the one in need of understanding, the Lord simply marks the path, provides the tools and abilities in ample supply but it is me that needs to understand the relationship and thusly garner the confidence that I can succeed because of who I am and who my Father is. Once a person understand that, nothing is beyond their reach.

As far as people wanting to start a family, this is a very Natural way to go but if the choice, purpose and conditions are not within an individual to desire, want or begin a family, it’s not going to happen for Nature or for GOD.

Again too sad for the individual who, being able and of age physically and mentally, chooses to ignore the responsibility to keep the commandment to be fruitful and replenish the earth is choosing to rewrite the requirements for success in the eternities. How far do you think you would get in a college or university if you tried to rewrite the final exam for your own purposes?

If it helps you to understand, consider this existence like a movie. You are here to create your own story (or movie) on the budget and limitations that you have. You are very dedicated to this purposeful production because you want to make this movie as close to your perceived vision as possible. You are not creating this to appease any outside critiques you are producing this because you wanted to. I believe GOD has watched a lot of movies. I believe that GOD does not critique them.

If that is true than God is no better than a sea turtle. The reality is that we are not here simply to create our own story, our story is a natural consequence of our actions and it is our actions, thoughts, and choices that are determining how we will progress through the eternities. Of this, I can assure you that God is not only immensely interested but has a huge vested interest in our success.

 

[Evandr]

Question:

Where does God end and man begin?

That is not realy hard to understand if you ask yourself "where do you end and your children begin"?

 

[Mr Cheese]

That is not realy hard to understand if you ask yourself "where do you end and your children begin"?

You fail to answer the question

Where does God end and man begin?

I dont care what I think.... or I wouldnt have asked

 

[madhatter85]

You fail to answer the question

Where does God end and man begin?

I dont care what I think.... or I wouldnt have asked

God does not end and the beginning of "man" depends on your definition of man.

 

[Mr Cheese]

man= homosapiens

thus,

Where does God end and homosapiens begin?

but never mind....

I think this is largely a discussion in scripture.... shrug

 

[sandandfoam]

man= homosapiens

thus,

Where does God end and homosapiens begin?

but never mind....

I think this is largely a discussion in scripture.... shrug

before you go....

I don't know where we end and god begins. I think there is something eternal running through us but I don't think this is God. Godlike in some ways - but not God.

 

[Mr Cheese]

before you go....

I don't know where we end and god begins. I think there is something eternal running through us but I don't think this is God. Godlike in some ways - but not God.

what is not God?

IS cheese not God?

Are hairy toes not God?

Are monkeys not God?

 

[sandandfoam]

what is not God?

IS cheese not God?

Are hairy toes not God?

Are monkeys not God?

I'm not sure. But I don't think so.
Hairy toes can inspire awe, but I think it might be because they carry a mark of God rather than they are God.