What Exactly Defines: "born-again"?

[A. Ben-Shema]

Jesus said.

John 3:3
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
B-I-N-G-O!
NEXT!

Did you actually read the OP?

I asked: "What, exactly, is the experience which determines that one is "born-again"? How do all you, that claim to be "born-again", know that what you say is true? Is it your mind which is telling you this? Have you experienced the Beatific Vision / Shekhinah (as Moses on the mountain)? Have you HEARD the "Voice" of God (as so many ancient Prophets did)?"

 

[athanasius]

What Exactly Defines: "born-again"?

Answer: the Catholic Church and her constant 2000 year old tradition defines this passage infallibly as witness by the Fathers who always defined it to mean water baptism(Jn 3:3-5). Amen!

 

[A. Ben-Shema]

What Exactly Defines: "born-again"?

Answer: the Catholic Church and her constant 2000 year old tradition defines this passage infallibly as witness by the Fathers who always defined it to mean water baptism(Jn 3:3-5). Amen!

The gospels, however, talk about water baptism as being merely for repentance, a symbolic washing performed by John in the Jordan River (and performed in many other religions). The genuine Spiritual Baptism is what Jesus Himself performed - the Baptism of 'Fire' / 'Light' of God! Which of the Catholic Fathers was witness to Jesus Himself, and which can give infallible judgment?

As far as the Catholic church's constant 2,000 year tradition is concerned, perhaps you should study the history, especially of the Popes and other clergy. See, e.g. the Catholic Encyclopedia's articles on Popes for the years 217-235, 251, 355-367, 418-419, 501-505, 530, 687, 768, 844, 855, & 903 (these years had two, or more, opposing Popes); also Pope Liberius, Innocent I, Gelasius I, Gregory I, Honorius I, Formosus, Stephen VII, Sergius III, John X, John XI, John XII, Benedict V, John XIII, Benedict VII, Benedict IX, & Urban II (all later condemned of heresy or of committing vile and evil deeds). In the years 304-308, 309-311, & 638-640 there was no Pope at all to lead and pass on the 'constant':sarcastic tradition, due to internal disputes :slap:!

 

[love]

I have been told by numerous Christians that they are: "born-again" Christians, and not as the others. However, from talking to so many of these so-called "born-again" individuals (including some here on this site), I see that they also have much uncertainty about the scriptures, and many, many differences in opinion about such things as Truth / God / Jesus / Spirit / Divine Law / etc! I mean that, even though they call themselves "born-again", they still cannot agree with each other about so many Spiritual things, and also on the true meaning of so many Biblical passages, etc. etc! I still see so much confusion and disagreement between the so-called "born-againers"!

So, my question is this: "What, exactly, is the experience which determines that one is "born-again"? How do all you, that claim to be "born-again", know that what you say is true? Is it your mind which is telling you this? Have you experienced the Beatific Vision / Shekhinah (as Moses on the mountain)? Have you HEARD the "Voice" of God (as so many ancient Prophets did)?

This is a very serious question, which I think a lot of people would like answered. So, ALL you "born-againers", please let us know your experiences. Thank you ALL.

Peace & Love

Well Ben, I guess one of the first things you do when you are born again is to quit getting all worked up by details. You are new. You're eyes have been opened unto a new world.
For those not familiar with the Holy Spirit think of your Mother being with you at all times. She may paddle your butt but she wont set you on fire to burn.

 

[KPereira]

What you describe sounds more like the coming of a great 'thirst' for God. The question is, was that thirst merely intellectual (e.g. satisfied by mere words, beliefs, and traditions), or was it really Spiritual, and only satisfied by the true 'face to face' meeting with God Himself?

The genuine 'born again' experience is, imo, the very meeting with the Spirit of God (as Moses, on the mountain), and the resultant change in one's whole life.

I think the thirst was more Spiritual. I had always gone to Catholic mass before...done the routine. I was indifferent towards religion. Didn't really care too much if there was a God or not. I was always told there was a God by teachers, priests, friends, parents, etc. But it just wasn't the same. As I grew older, I came to my own conclusion that God has to exist, not from what others told me, but that I believe that something can't come from nothing. Only a higher power can solve that puzzle.

The problem was, I knew nothing of God. My vision of Him had always been a old, white bearded man in a toga up in the clouds. Pretty stupid, I know. But when my friend preached to me, I was...enlightened. God was in my peripheral vision before, but then, he became the main focus. I wanted to know everything I could about God. I started reading the Bible. I started to come to my own conclusions. I prayed to God and started to have a personal relationship with him. That is the fire I describe. The fervour that fuelled me.

 

[athanasius]

The gospels, however, talk about water baptism as being merely for repentance, a symbolic washing performed by John in the Jordan River (and performed in many other religions). The genuine Spiritual Baptism is what Jesus Himself performed - the Baptism of 'Fire' / 'Light' of God! Which of the Catholic Fathers was witness to Jesus Himself, and which can give infallible judgment?

As far as the Catholic church's constant 2,000 year tradition is concerned, perhaps you should study the history, especially of the Popes and other clergy. See, e.g. the Catholic Encyclopedia's articles on Popes for the years 217-235, 251, 355-367, 418-419, 501-505, 530, 687, 768, 844, 855, & 903 (these years had two, or more, opposing Popes); also Pope Liberius, Innocent I, Gelasius I, Gregory I, Honorius I, Formosus, Stephen VII, Sergius III, John X, John XI, John XII, Benedict V, John XIII, Benedict VII, Benedict IX, & Urban II (all later condemned of heresy or of committing vile and evil deeds). In the years 304-308, 309-311, & 638-640 there was no Pope at all to lead and pass on the 'constant':sarcastic tradition, due to internal disputes :slap:!

So which of your many biblical and historical mistakes:sarcastic do you want me to answer first???

 

[Free4all]

Short and sweet answer ---->
The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. John 3:8

 

[Free4all]

BTW, Being "born-again" doesn't mean anything close to perfection, we still have to suffer in the flesh. But, I have met some "born-again" christians who privately interpret the AV and it usually misleads them into a "works is a part of salvation" problem. I will say that (in my experience) 98% of the time "born-again" christians are of the same mind.

 

[anders]

I was slightly excited when I saw the thread title, because I have wondered, too. Would the OP (and myself) get an answer? 27 posts, and I am no wiser.

 

[Free4all]

Open your eyes, It's not that hard to see.

 

[Hope]

This is an excellent question.

Well, I'm not going to point to any Scriptures in my explanation of being "born-again"----I'm only going to describe my own experience. I think the danger is to assume every born-again Christian has the exact same experience----this is not the case. Some have very dramatic, emotional experiences, sometimes accompanied by supernatural events, others have experiences that are very "low-key" and not very emotional at all. The truth is, every born-again Christian has a slightly different experience. But the one thing anyone who has been born again can tell you for sure is that their lives were dramatically changed afterwards. Such is the case with me.

I did not have anything supernatural happen to me. I had no visions, or overpowering emotions. I simply, deliberately, put my faith in Christ. I actually struggled for a whole day trying to do this. I struggled, because I grew up in a Christian home and knew all about Christ on an intellectual level, but had had bad experiences with Christians, so I had a lot of conflict going on in my mind, will, and emotions. But the end result was that I knew I needed God so desperately that I decided to give Him a chance to prove Himself to me. And the amazing, awesome thing is that He did. He completely transformed my heart, literally overnight. It was not something I did on my own, I can assure you. I'd been carrying around a lot of bitterness and hate, I was depressed, and I knew I could never change myself on my own. Well, it was like a huge load was lifted off of me when I was born again. That's really the only way I can explain it. All my bitterness, hatred, and depression vanished into thin air, I suddenly had this overwhelming peace and joy, and I had an intense awareness of the presence of God. I also began to hear His voice. It actually shocked me at first. Because it was almost audible.

But this was my experience. I've certainly had my ups and downs since then in my Christian walk, but I have never been the same person since that day.

I also wanted to respond quickly to the issue of baptism. Baptism, according to the Scripture, does not bring salvation. Baptism is simply a ritual that represents born-again believers identifying with Christ's death, burial, and resurrection. I was saved, or born-again, about ten years ago. I was not baptized till last year. No one is saved through baptism alone, according to the Scriptures.

 

[athanasius]

This is an excellent question.


I also wanted to respond quickly to the issue of baptism. Baptism, according to the Scripture, does not bring salvation. Baptism is simply a ritual that represents born-again believers identifying with Christ's death, burial, and resurrection. I was saved, or born-again, about ten years ago. I was not baptized till last year. No one is saved through baptism alone, according to the Scriptures.

Baptism does initially save you. (1Peter 3:21, Titus 3:5-7, Jn 3:3-5). Of coarse you also have to have faith(Jn 3:16) and works(James 2:24).

 

[Free4all]

Hope, excellent Post, I can't agree more. It is different for every one. And Yes, water baptism does nothing for your salvation.

 

[athanasius]

Hope, excellent Post, I can't agree more. It is different for every one. And Yes, water baptism does nothing for your salvation.

Water Baptism does initially save you and allow you to enter into the kingdom of heaven. (1Peter 3:21, Titus 3:5-7, Jn 3:3-5, Mk 16:16), and wash away your sins(,Act 22:16, 1 Cor 6:11, Eph 5:26-27, Heb 10:22, Acts 2:38-39, Ezekiel 36:25-27). Of coarse you also have to have faith(Jn 3:16, Rom 10:9, Gal 5:6) and works(James 2:24. Rom 2:5-10, Gal 6:6-10 Jn 5:28-29, Matt 25:31-46).

 

[Free4all]

1Pet. 3:21 - Not talking about water baptism. (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Besides, Peter is talking to Jews here, B4 Paul set him straight on a few things.
Titus 3:5-7 - I see nothing here about water baptism having anything to do with salvation. It does say: Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us.
Jn 3:3-5 - Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Born of water is your mothers water breaking and you being born, It doesn't say born of water baptism. besides the next verse confirms this: That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6
John 3:16 - Yes, Faith is it, but I don't see anything about faith in this verse, although great verse.
James 2:24 - This is a tricky one. James is written to the "Twelve tribes which are scattered abroad" (Jews) and not only to the Jews, but specifically to the Jews during the tribulation. this is the same salvation that Abraham their father was justified by (works and faith) read from verse 21. wrong dispensation - we are in the grace age right now, we have the holy spirit. They didn't have that luxury before Christ died. Now when the rapture takes place, the Holy Spirit is taken away also - so back to that type of salvation. that is why you see alot of verses talking about "enduring to the end"
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2Ti 2:15

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Water Baptism does initially save you. (1Peter 3:21, Titus 3:5-7, Jn 3:3-5), and wash away your sins(Act 22:16, Ezekiel 36:25-27).

1 Peter 3:21 refers metaphorically to the water of the flood. Titus 3:5-7 describes the "washing of rebirth" and appears to be metaphoric as well. John 3:3-5, IMO can be just as easily interpreted with "born of water" referring to physical birth (with accompanying "water breaking"), not water baptism.

Acts 22:16 is spoken by Ananias; while it does appear that Ananais believes that water baptism washes away sin, it's not clear that it's being presented in this verse as anything other than his opinion.

Ezekiel 36:25-27 is a portion of a larger promise to the Jewish people to give them a homeland and allow them to live in comfort there. If it is not referring literally to water cleaning the skin without any sort of divine implications, it is likely referring to a Jewish Mikvah, and unlikely to be a reference to a Christian ceremony that supplants circumcision and leaves an indelible mark on the soul.

Edit: you're too quick for me, Free4all!

 

[athanasius]

1Pet. 3:21 - Not talking about water baptism. (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Besides, Peter is talking to Jews here, B4 Paul set him straight on a few things.
Titus 3:5-7 - I see nothing here about water baptism having anything to do with salvation. It does say: Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us.
Jn 3:3-5 - Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Born of water is your mothers water breaking and you being born, It doesn't say born of water baptism. besides the next verse confirms this: That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6
John 3:16 - Yes, Faith is it, but I don't see anything about faith in this verse, although great verse.
James 2:24 - This is a tricky one. James is written to the "Twelve tribes which are scattered abroad" (Jews) and not only to the Jews, but specifically to the Jews during the tribulation. this is the same salvation that Abraham their father was justified by (works and faith) read from verse 21. wrong dispensation - we are in the grace age right now, we have the holy spirit. They didn't have that luxury before Christ died. Now when the rapture takes place, the Holy Spirit is taken away also - so back to that type of salvation. that is why you see alot of verses talking about "enduring to the end"
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2Ti 2:15

He absolutest is talking about water baptism. That is why he uses the "water" parrellel of Noahs ark in which eight were saved!. Again I agree with this passage, Baptism doesn't wash away dirt on your body, but rather gives you a clean conscious, a spiritual washing and regeneration washes your soul and not the body! So no argument their!

Jn 3:3-5 is so clear that water baptism is the context. No where does this passage say anything about being born from your mothers womb. that was Nicodemus erroneous idea. Jesus corrects that! You must be born of water and the spirit. How is one born of water and the Holy Spirit? In Jn 1 Jesus is baptized and what comes down on him? the Holy Spirit does. Immediately after Jesus talks to nicodemus he then goes out with his apostles and begins to water baptize(Jn 3:22-23). sorry but is that just the context.

Jn 3:16 says you must believe, that means to have faith to be saved.

First off All none argues that we do not have the Spirit, We do have the Spirit. but just because we have the Holy Spirit (thanks to sacramental water Baptism) doesn't mean that we will not be judged by our faith lived out by good works(Gal 5:6, Gal 6:6-10, Rom 2:5-10, Matt 25:31-46, Jn 5:28-29).

No one in the first 1500 of the church years interpreted James 2:24 like you do. That's a problem for you. But all the early Christian writers(centiries 1-15) agreed that water baptism, meant born again.

Ezekiel's passage is a formal prophesy of this cleansing that came true in Act s 2:38-39, water baptism. like it or not the early fathers were against you novel teaching on these issues.

 

[Free4all]

He absolutest is talking about water baptism. That is why he uses the "water" parrellel of Noahs ark in which eight were saved!. Again I agree with this passage, Baptism doesn't wash away dirt on your body, but rather gives you a clean conscious, a spiritual washing and regeneration washes your soul and not the body! So no argument their!

Jn 3:3-5 is so clear that water baptism is the context. No where does this passage say anything about being born from your mothers womb. that was Nicodemus erroneous idea. Jesus corrects that! (No, Jesus corrects him because, he was asking how it was possible for him to go back into his mothers womb and be born again. Jesus corrected him by telling him it was a spiritual rebirth, not a physical one) You must be born of water(womb birth) and the spirit(2nd birth). How is one born of water and the Holy Spirit? In Jn 1 Jesus is baptized and what comes down on him? the Holy Spirit does. Immediately after Jesus talks to nicodemus he then goes out with his apostles and begins to water baptize(Jn 3:22-23). sorry but is that just the context.

Jn 3:16 says you must believe, that means to have faith to be saved.
Fine, I'll give you that one.

First off All none argues that we do not have the Spirit, We do have the Spirit. but just because we have the Holy Spirit (thanks to sacramental water Baptism) doesn't mean that we will not be judged by our faith lived out by good works(Gal 5:6, Gal 6:6-10, Rom 2:5-10, Matt 25:31-46, Jn 5:28-29).

No one in the first 1500 of the church years interpreted James 2:24 like you do. That's a problem for you. But all the early Christian writers(centiries 1-15) agreed that water baptism, meant born again. I have never seen water baptism connected to salvation one time in scripture.

Ezekiel's passage is a formal prophesy of this cleansing that came true in Act s 2:38-39, water baptism. like it or not the early fathers were against you novel teaching on these issues.

Let's talk about John 1 a little.
John 1:31-33 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
Wow, I think I see a spiritual baptism here.

 

[Hope]

Baptism does initially save you. (1Peter 3:21, Titus 3:5-7, Jn 3:3-5). Of coarse you also have to have faith(Jn 3:16) and works(James 2:24).

I can definitely see how you, and many others, come to this conclusion from reading certain verses, but the one thing it's important to notice is that baptism, as put forth in Scripture, is never presented as having a saving power all its own. It’s what precedes it, and what it represents that does the actual saving.

Let's start with John the Baptist. He always preached baptism in accordance with repentance. Baptism means nothing apart from repentance. John the Baptist also pointed to Christ and said He would baptize not with water, but with the Holy Spirit and fire (Luke 3:16).

After Pentecost, Peter also preached baptism along with repentance. (Acts 2:38) Notice he says "Repent...and be baptized," not "be baptized and repent." Repentance comes first.

The verses in Titus do not specifically mention baptism.

The verses in John also do not specifically mention baptism. Jesus simply said one cannot enter the kingdom of God without being born of water andthe Spirit. It is stretching the meaning of the verse to say it's saying one must be baptized to be saved.

The verse in I Peter says "baptism now saves you.....through the resurrection of Jesus Christ." The part "through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" is key.

One has to look at verses in context, and always balance them with other Scriptures. Such as Romans 6, which clarifies the meaning of baptism. And John 3:16, as you cited, does not mention baptism as a requirement for being saved. Neither does Romans 10:9.

My point is, in short, not to say that baptism is not important. It is very important. However, it is dangerous to say that baptism is what initially saves someone. Because then someone without any faith and repentance can be baptized, wrongly assuming that's all they have to do to be saved, and then they go their merry way, unchanged, and no better off than they were before.

You are absolutely right that faith and works are essential. We just have to be careful to present all four things----faith, repentance, baptism, and works---in the same way they are presented in Scripture. To get them in the right order, and understand the significance of each. Faith and repentance always come first, then baptism, then works. Faith and repentance save us from hell, baptism cleanses us and represents our flesh being crucified (identifying with Christ), and then works should be the natural outcome of a living, active faith.

So, I still, ever so respectfully, disagree with you.

 

[athanasius]

I can definitely see how you, and many others, come to this conclusion from reading certain verses, but the one thing it's important to notice is that baptism, as put forth in Scripture, is never presented as having a saving power all its own. It’s what precedes it, and what it represents that does the actual saving.

Let's start with John the Baptist. He always preached baptism in accordance with repentance. Baptism means nothing apart from repentance. John the Baptist also pointed to Christ and said He would baptize not with water, but with the Holy Spirit and fire (Luke 3:16).

After Pentecost, Peter also preached baptism along with repentance. (Acts 2:38) Notice he says "Repent...and be baptized," not "be baptized and repent." Repentance comes first.

The verses in Titus do not specifically mention baptism.

The verses in John also do not specifically mention baptism. Jesus simply said one cannot enter the kingdom of God without being born of water andthe Spirit. It is stretching the meaning of the verse to say it's saying one must be baptized to be saved.

The verse in I Peter says "baptism now saves you.....through the resurrection of Jesus Christ." The part "through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" is key.

One has to look at verses in context, and always balance them with other Scriptures. Such as Romans 6, which clarifies the meaning of baptism. And John 3:16, as you cited, does not mention baptism as a requirement for being saved. Neither does Romans 10:9.

My point is, in short, not to say that baptism is not important. It is very important. However, it is dangerous to say that baptism is what initially saves someone. Because then someone without any faith and repentance can be baptized, wrongly assuming that's all they have to do to be saved, and then they go their merry way, unchanged, and no better off than they were before.

You are absolutely right that faith and works are essential. We just have to be careful to present all four things----faith, repentance, baptism, and works---in the same way they are presented in Scripture. To get them in the right order, and understand the significance of each. Faith and repentance always come first, then baptism, then works. Faith and repentance save us from hell, baptism cleanses us and represents our flesh being crucified (identifying with Christ), and then works should be the natural outcome of a living, active faith.

So, I still, ever so respectfully, disagree with you.

Hello Hope and peace be with you my friend. I thank you for your well thought out response even though I politely and respectfully disagree with you. I think that we both actually agree much more than we disagree here and I see you have alot of good insight to the scriptures. I would agree that Baptism alone is no Guarantee that one is going to heaven for sure. After all one can commit mortal sin even after baptism and end up in hell(Heb 10:26-29). Having a living faith that works itself out in love(Gal 5:6) is essential for final salvation if one is a adult, but I would say that the Holy Sacrament of baptism that Christ gave us does "initially" save by washing away our sins(Original and actual)(Acts 22:16) and entering us into the covenant of Christ Christian family ( Rom 6, Col 2). We believe that salvation is a free gift and a process and initial salvation is granted at the free gift of baptism(1 peter 3:21) when his free gift of saving grace is poured out upon us in the sacrament he commanded.

Sometimes theologians use the phrase Coming to grace for initial salvation. But final salvation or coming to glory is something that we must work out with fear and trembling(phil 2:12). Repentance is needed prior to baptism if one is adult or of the age of reason, we Catholics teach that. And we also teach that one needs to grow in love with Christ and have a living faith in him that works itself out in love to be saved(Matt 25:31-46, Rom 2:5-10). So all in all I think that we agree much more than we disagree here.

The problem that I have as a theology student who has taken scripture courses and Church history courses is this: Pretty much all of the early Christian fathers and writers for the first 1500 years seem to agree with my position and interpretation on water baptism and salvation and what it means to be born again in the bible. The latter interpretation that you propose seems to be a novel or late interpretation of Jn 3 and other passages, and that worries me. But , I really do appreciate your responses and can at least better understand where you are coming from.


We agree with 1 Peter 3:21 that the resurrection of Christ is what saves us. We just see that the grace of that resurrection is applied personally to us in water baptism as Peter mentions that this baptism now saves us. So we don't disagree with you their. we just see Peter as preaching that this saving grace is applied to us initially at water baptism as it says. We also see titus 3:5-7 as talking about the washing of regeneration that was poured upon us. We interpret this to mean water baptism as the early Church also interpreted the phrase washing to mean baptism in their writings and we believe that Ezekiel the prophet formally predicted this in his writings(Ex 36:25-27) and read Ezekiel's prophesy which is worded similar to and which seems to be fulfilled in the water baptism of (Acts 2:38) . Of coarse its Christ and the Cross that saves us. We believe that the cross is redemption accomplished, but the sacraments that Christ gave like baptism are how redemption is applied to us. that may be were our differences come in.

Thanks for the good dialogue.

God bless you always in Jesus the King and center of all hearts through Mary Immaculate Assumed Queen Mother of all Christians,

Athanasius