What do you do with a heathen in Mass?

[Scott1]

Okey dokey...

 

[Poisonshady313]

That's all fine and good. But I don't understand why you didn't even bow your head. Did you just feel as if you would be betraying your beliefs?

Yes
Exodus 20:

3. You shall not have the gods of others in My presence.

4. You shall not make for yourself a graven image or any likeness which is in the heavens above, which is on the earth below, or which is in the water beneath the earth.

5. You shall neither prostrate yourself before them nor worship them, for I, the Lord, your God, am a zealous God, Who visits the iniquity of the fathers upon the sons, upon the third and the fourth generation of those who hate Me,

6. and perform loving kindness to thousands [of generations], to those who love Me and to those who keep My commandments.

There being a big ole crucifix up in the front, whether it be with or without Jesus, presents a situation in which I will not bow my head.

 

[methylatedghosts]

They won't burn you at the stake...I promise.

Awwww? Ruin all my fun why don't you!


What you can do during communion and whatever other times you're not going along with everyone else is take the chance to have a wee pray to/by yourself. If I find myself in a church, that's what I do.

 

[Quiddity]

Poisonshady313,
You know, there is a not so hyper-literal way of interpreting Exodus. You wouldn’t for example consider:

-a picture of a loved one
-a quarter in your pocket with an eagle (ancient pagan symbol)

…as a blasphemous act prohibited by Exodus, would you?

You see, the problem is that God himself commands the creation of sculptures for a religious purpose. For example, when God told Moses how to build the Ark of the Covenant, He said:
Make two cherubim out of hammered gold at the ends of the cover. Make one cherub on one end and the second cherub on the other; make the cherubim of one piece with the cover, at the two ends. The cherubim are to have their wings spread upward, overshadowing the cover with them. The cherubim are to face each other, looking toward the cover. (Exod. 25:18-20).

There are more examples but I hope this will be sufficient to show that Exodus was not to be taken in a strict hyper-literal sense.

Maybe it would help to point out that a catholic’s veneration of a statue of Jesus is exactly analogous to a patriotic American veneration of the American flag. We honor (show respect to) the flag, not because of what it is (a piece of cloth), but because of what it represents (America).

 

[Poisonshady313]

Poisonshady313,
You know, there is a not so hyper-literal way of interpreting Exodus. You wouldn’t for example consider:

-a picture of a loved one
-a quarter in your pocket with an eagle (ancient pagan symbol)

…as a blasphemous act prohibited by Exodus, would you?

I don't bow my heads before either of those, either.

You see, the problem is that God himself commands the creation of sculptures for a religious purpose. For example, when God told Moses how to build the Ark of the Covenant, He said:
Make two cherubim out of hammered gold at the ends of the cover. Make one cherub on one end and the second cherub on the other; make the cherubim of one piece with the cover, at the two ends. The cherubim are to have their wings spread upward, overshadowing the cover with them. The cherubim are to face each other, looking toward the cover. (Exod. 25:18-20).

Nobody mistakes those for God. Nobody worships them.

Maybe it would help to point out that a catholic’s veneration of a statue of Jesus is exactly analogous to a patriotic American veneration of the American flag. We honor (show respect to) the flag, not because of what it is (a piece of cloth), but because of what it represents (America).

You don't believe that either the American flag or the nation, America, is responsible for the creation of the heavens and the earth, do you?

You don't believe that the American flag saves you from your sins, do you?

An idol that represents a false god isn't condemned 'cause it's a piece of wood, or stone, or metal. It's condemned because of the false god it represents.

You wouldn't claim to pay tribute to America by honoring the Japanese flag, would you?

 

[blackout]

From my late twenties to my mid thirties
I was the only catholic in the catholic parish where I played the piano
to kneel during the consecration,
(as there were no kneelers at that point
in the temporary hall in which mass took place)
and as well I wore a veil which NO ONE else did.
I was the only one who went out of his/her way
to genuflect in the direction of the "hidden" tabernacle.
Oh yes! I even recieved communion on my knees.
I can't even remember why now,
but I had issues with how they did the sign of peace,
holding hands during the lord's prayer,
and other things,
because I felt it was very important to follow church teaching,
(doctrine, rubrics, cannon, tradition)
and because I did truly believe that Jesus was present in the eucharist
as he was no where else on earth.

I used to go to confession regularly,
and noted frequently how there were NO confession lines, ever.
Yet the communion lines were always long as could be.
If I felt I was really in need of confession,
I would go to mass and NOT recieve communion.

Was I a legalist? Well, yes.
Such a religion really REQUIRES it,
on account of all the rules and legalities.
I remember being bullied by the music catechumin
and pulling out the catechism to show him in writing
the official teaching of the church (regarding the eucharist).
Still he twisted it, and guess who everyone believed.

So whatever. This is all just background.

Two years after the actual church was built,
complete with kneelers and pews,
I experienced a total paradigm shift
that completely changed my view of God, Life, Self, World and Religion...
at which point I was no longer Catholic at all
and only Christian still in a very "fringe" kind of way.
(that most christians won't accept as christian at all)

So still I kept my job as paid church pianist/musician,
but because of MY OWN HISTORY THERE,
and being so visible,
I found it personally necessary to not paricipate in the rubrics at all.
Truly, I was there only as a professionally paid musician at that point,
and nothing more.
Being there at the piano bench made it a little easier
for me to not participate without "appearing" disrespectful,
but it was more than obvious to everyone there
that I was no longer a participating catholic.

The veil disappeared. I no longer recieved communion.
No longer did I kneel, bow, stand or genuflect.
(the sign of peace was the only thing I participated in,
I think and maybe the lord's prayer. the irony of it all)
It was no longer my church or my religion.

I personally never understand why people want to participate in something
that they do not believe in/belong to.
I'm just the very exact opposite.
I never want to appear as if I'm aligned with something I'm not.

Also, the church is OTHER people's place of worship.
I always did my best to respect that while not participating.
Eventually though I had to leave,
even the music, I found I could no longer participate in,
I realized I could no longer do my job the way
they "expected" me to.
(ie... leading the singing of songs I could no longer find truth in)

I left because there was too much rub between belief (systems).

Hope my story was of interest/assistance to somebody.

~Violet~

 

[Quiddity]

I don't bow my heads before either of those, either.

Nobody mistakes those for God. Nobody worships them.

You don't believe that either the American flag or the nation, America, is responsible for the creation of the heavens and the earth, do you?

You don't believe that the American flag saves you from your sins, do you?

An idol that represents a false god isn't condemned 'cause it's a piece of wood, or stone, or metal. It's condemned because of the false god it represents.

You wouldn't claim to pay tribute to America by honoring the Japanese flag, would you?

OR you can take our word for it that we don't worship statues. You'd get chuckles from catholics if you even posed the question to them in person.

It really isn't that difficult a concept.

 

[Quiddity]

From my late twenties to my mid thirties
I was the only catholic in the catholic parish where I played the piano
to kneel during the consecration,
(as there were no kneelers at that point
in the temporary hall in which mass took place)
and as well I wore a veil which NO ONE else did.
I was the only one who went out of his/her way
to genuflect in the direction of the "hidden" tabernacle.
Oh yes! I even recieved communion on my knees.
I can't even remember why now,
but I had issues with how they did the sign of peace,
holding hands during the lord's prayer,
and other things,
because I felt it was very important to follow church teaching,
(doctrine, rubrics, cannon, tradition)
and because I did truly believe that Jesus was present in the eucharist
as he was no where else on earth.

I used to go to confession regularly,
and noted frequently how there were NO confession lines, ever.
Yet the communion lines were always long as could be.
If I felt I was really in need of confession,
I would go to mass and NOT recieve communion.

Was I a legalist? Well, yes.
Such a religion really REQUIRES it,
on account of all the rules and legalities.
I remember being bullied by the music catechumin
and pulling out the catechism to show him in writing
the official teaching of the church (regarding the eucharist).
Still he twisted it, and guess who everyone believed.

So whatever. This is all just background.

Two years after the actual church was built,
complete with kneelers and pews,
I experienced a total paradigm shift
that completely changed my view of God, Life, Self, World and Religion...
at which point I was no longer Catholic at all
and only Christian still in a very "fringe" kind of way.
(that most christians won't accept as christian at all)

So still I kept my job as paid church pianist/musician,
but because of MY OWN HISTORY THERE,
and being so visible,
I found it personally necessary to not paricipate in the rubrics at all.
Truly, I was there only as a professionally paid musician at that point,
and nothing more.
Being there at the piano bench made it a little easier
for me to not participate without "appearing" disrespectful,
but it was more than obvious to everyone there
that I was no longer a participating catholic.

The veil disappeared. I no longer recieved communion.
No longer did I kneel, bow, stand or genuflect.
(the sign of peace was the only thing I participated in,
I think and maybe the lord's prayer. the irony of it all)
It was no longer my church or my religion.

I personally never understand why people want to participate in something
that they do not believe in/belong to.
I'm just the very exact opposite.
I never want to appear as if I'm aligned with something I'm not.

Also, the church is OTHER people's place of worship.
I always did my best to respect that while not participating.
Eventually though I had to leave,
even the music, I found I could no longer participate in,
I realized I could no longer do my job the way
they "expected" me to.
(ie... leading the singing of songs I could no longer find truth in)

I left because there was too much rub between belief (systems).

Hope my story was of interest/assistance to somebody.

~Violet~

Definately not for catholics that's for sure.

You must be proud.

So much for respect.

 

[blackout]

Definately not for catholics that's for sure.

You must be proud.

So much for respect.

I do not understand your response at all Victor.
Why do you say I must be proud?
(is there some kind of sarcasm embedded there?)
How have I disrespected anyone?

I was telling my story as it related to the OP question.
Do you think then that I handled my situation incorrectly?

No one complained.
I'm the one who announced my resignation,
responsibly, giving them PLENTY of time
to find a suitable replacement.
(I had been there almost 10 years).
As unhappy as I was, I did not leave them without music
for that last holy week/communion season,
even though I was utterly miserable inside,
and wanted nothing more than to leave.

It's funny how MY unhappyness there
counts for nothing.
As If I was "proud of myself" or something,
instead of caught in the middle of a very uncomfortable situation.

~Violet~

EDIT: You do realize I gave up what had been the only career in music I had invested my adult life in?
And here I am now at 40 basically starting all over.
As well, both my daughter and I lost our entire social life.
All of the people we socialized with had been catholic home schoolers.
Once they realized they could not get me back into the church.... "pooft".
Understandably though, as both my daughter and I had prepared ourselves for.

Whatever. It doesn't even matter at all anymore.
It's just silly to paint me as the proud, heathen villian.
That's all I'm saying.

 

[Scott1]

Umm... this thread is in the Catholic DIR... it's not meant for NON-Catholic commentary.

I enjoyed your story (check your frubals) but it's really not the thread for it... I think that's all Victor meant.

Peace

 

[blackout]

Scott,

This thread has seen.....
agnostic, Jewish, any/none, pick'n'mixism...
all respectfully telling of how they have handled themselves
at catholic mass.... as non catholics.
(or in a church not their own)
Did I do any different?

I somehow think the "you must be proud" comment
has more to do with my story,
than the fact that I posted it in the catholic directory.

But I am happy to be corrected on my sense of that.
(and certainly I would be most happy to find that I am wrong)

I am always very careful to be respectful in other people's forum directories,
and have never posted knowingly, in an inapropriate manner.

Have all the non catholics in this thread posted inapropriately?

I'm not picking a fight here.
I just need to be told what was disrespectful or wrong about my post specifically.
I am not above correction.

In peace,
~Violet~

And thank you for acknowledging the worth of my story.
I really do appreciate it.

 

[Scott1]

Did I do any different?

Well.. yes... but I understand why.... but maybe we should take this to PM's if you wish to continue chatting... or contact Victor personally... this thread is not the place for it.

Smooches.

 

[blackout]

Well.. yes... but I understand why.... but maybe we should take this to PM's if you wish to continue chatting... or contact Victor personally... this thread is not the place for it.

Smooches.

Ok. Fair enough. :rainbow1:

 

[angellous_evangellous]

***MOD ADVISORY***

Please be civil and stay on topic.

Thanks...

A_E