What can we do to end prostitution?

[Fluffy]

One big problem with your argument here: prostitution (everywhere but in certain counties in Nevada) is currently already illegal. We don't have to stop anything. I'm arguing that the law concerning this shouldn't change. Why would anyone want to make a conscious, active, effort to legalize something that is harmful to families and society?

There are aspects of prostitution that are indeed harmful. For example, spreading sexually transmitted diseases (although there are many others). Illegalisation has not stopped this harmful aspects.

A legal and controlled prostitution business will clearly limit these possibilities of harm (in the example, enforced condom use) to a greater extent that the current situation. Therefore, the argument that keeping prostitution illegal reduces the greatest amount of suffering does not fly.

The only reason to keep prostitution illegal is if one is arguing from the unjustified premise that sex outside of marriage and outside of love is wrong.

You're argument just doesn't hold any water in my view. The whole objective of prostitution is sexually related. I'm not sure what your work environment is like, but where I work there aren't women going around trying to arrange a one-night-stand with the male employees.

I disagree. If married men and women are likely to be tempted into a legal brothel against the wishes of their spouse then this is indicative of a problem with their marriage. Closing the brothel won't make that problem go away.

In fact, if somebody is predisposed to that kind of behaviour then segration in the workplace makes a lot of sense. It will not matter that members of the opposite sex do not have a big sign on them saying "prostitute" because the temptation is still there regardless. Therefore, it is harmful to the family to keep men and women in the same working environment because infidelity is more likely.

It's not the law that hurts the women, it's the women's choice to break the law that hurts the women.

Women who work in legal brothels are not harmed by their work. Many women in the illegal business do not have a choice.

 

[Mike182]

You're right prostitution has nothing to do with building a family. It has more to do with the destruction of families and family values. Two problems in particular:

1. It's not unheard of for prostitutes to get pregnant and attempt to raise children under those circumstances.

please expand, what are "those circumstances"?

2. You'd be naive to think that prostitution isn't involved in the destruction of families on either side of the coin.

if a family has a problem which pressures one member to prostitution, surely that is a problem within the family, regardless of the state of prostitution - ie, demonizing prostitution will not make that problem go away

 

[cardero]

I didn't have time to look through the responses but has anyone mentioned "Stop Paying For Sex"?

 

[retrorich]

I didn't have time to look through the responses but has anyone mentioned "Stop Paying For Sex"?

Which brings us to the question, "How do you make a hormone?"

 

[MaddLlama]

One big problem with your argument here: prostitution (everywhere but in certain counties in Nevada) is currently already illegal. We don't have to stop anything. I'm arguing that the law concerning this shouldn't change. Why would anyone want to make a conscious, active, effort to legalize something that is harmful to families and society?

Because keeping the law the way it is is what is harmful. You still have yet to give me any proof that it's harmful to society, and last time I checked, just because a man lacks the self control not to cheat on his wife doesn't mean we have to limit the freedom of women to have sex.

Because it's the topic of this thread. Otherwise, I wouldn't single out prostitution, I'd fight against anything that is destructive to families.

But what I'm saying is that just about anything can be destructive to families. Money is a big one. Actually I think disagreements about money are probably the failing of more marriages than infidelity. What should we do to stop money from hurting marriages and family? Keep people from having jobs?

You're argument just doesn't hold any water in my view. The whole objective of prostitution is sexually related. I'm not sure what your work environment is like, but where I work there aren't women going around trying to arrange a one-night-stand with the male employees.

It doesn't hold water because you're looking at it on an extremely superficial level. Just because a woman in the office doesn't prance around in fishnets and a tube top doesn't mean that any man in the office won't be attracted to her. There's a good reason there's a sterotype of the man screwing his secretary behind his wife's back. I highly doubt that the percentage of divorces due to infidelity are because of prostitutes. A man can be attracted to any woman, married men don't just go after prostitutes. Again, there's no need to single them out. I'm saying that if you want to "protect the family" at all cost, then extreme measures have to be taken. If you want to keep men from cheating on thier wives, then you've got to remove all temptation, not just the prostitutes. Even if we round up every sex worker and stripper in the country, legal or illegal, men will undoubtedly find someone else. So, how do we protect the family and the marriage from the secretary? Or the woman at the bar? Or, the woman in the grovery store?
Maybe instead, we should hold the men accountable for thier behavior, instead of blaming it on the women. Prostitutes, or any woman for that matter, don't prey on married men. I would be willing to bet that most of the time a man cheats on his wife, the other woman doesn't even know he's married. So, is the woman at fault just because she's having sex with a man before they're married, or before doing a complete background check on him? Or is it the man's fault for seeking out sex in that way in the first place? Why take the blame off of him?

 

[Polaris]

There are aspects of prostitution that are indeed harmful. For example, spreading sexually transmitted diseases (although there are many others). Illegalisation has not stopped this harmful aspects.

Please tell me one thing that prostitution is actually good for. You admit yourself that its harmful in many ways. In what way is it actually good for society that would justify changing the laws to make it legal. "Protection for prostitutes" isn't a valid reason... remember, prostitution (in most cases) is illegal to begin with.

Many women in the illegal business do not have a choice.

How do they not have a choice?

If some abusive dominant figure is forcing them into prostitution, then he's the one to be held accountable and should be prosecuted. But that doesn't mean we should legalize prostitution.

1. It's not unheard of for prostitutes to get pregnant and attempt to raise children under those circumstances.

please expand, what are "those circumstances"?

OK.

The child comes into the world under the following circumstances:
- Single mother who likely doesn't even know who the father is and has likely never had any emotional tie to him whatsoever.
- Mom spends a good part of her evenings and/or weekends "entertaining" perverted men.

Sorry, but I believe a child deserves more than that.

2. You'd be naive to think that prostitution isn't involved in the destruction of families on either side of the coin.

if a family has a problem which pressures one member to prostitution, surely that is a problem within the family, regardless of the state of prostitution - ie, demonizing prostitution will not make that problem go away

To a point that's true, but legalizing prostitution doesn't help. Legalizing prostitution facilitates inappropriate sexual encounters. Making inappropriate sexual encounters more accessable only increases the likelyhood of marital infidelity. If prostitution becomes too accessible, all it will take is a little too much to drink one night on a business trip, or a moment of weakness or depression and bang, a destructive line has been crossed. We can hope that all men would have a little more sense than that, but unfortunately some don't and need the protection of the law and its consequences.

Because keeping the law the way it is is what is harmful. You still have yet to give me any proof that it's harmful to society, and last time I checked, just because a man lacks the self control not to cheat on his wife doesn't mean we have to limit the freedom of women to have sex.

Hold on, you're the one asserting that the law needs to be changed, the burden of proof is on you. It's your responsibility to prove that the law is harmful and that legalizing prostitution will not be harmful to society; evidence and reason suggest that it will.

How does the illegality of prostitution limit women's freedom to have sex any more than the men who illegally solicit them? Both are breaking the law and both should be prosecuted.

How is the law harmful? Prostitution is illegal. How is that harmful? Just because some women may be forced into prostitution by some abusive person, doesn't mean we should legalize prostitution... it means we should find and prosecute the abuser. The others who choose to be prostitutes clearly do so at their own risk and knowingly without legal protection, that's their choice, that doesn't make the law harmful, it's their decision that's potentially harmful.

But what I'm saying is that just about anything can be destructive to families. Money is a big one. Actually I think disagreements about money are probably the failing of more marriages than infidelity. What should we do to stop money from hurting marriages and family? Keep people from having jobs?

Millions of people work successfully with money every day without it destroying their families? Similarly millions of married men work in a non-segregated work environment each day without giving in or even considering infidelity? Money and non-segregated work environments serve a good purpose. There will always be the few who make a bad situation out of good things. Prostitution does not serve a good purpose. I'm yet to hear one thing that prostitution does to benefit society.

Maybe instead, we should hold the men accountable for thier behavior, instead of blaming it on the women. Prostitutes, or any woman for that matter, don't prey on married men. I would be willing to bet that most of the time a man cheats on his wife, the other woman doesn't even know he's married. So, is the woman at fault just because she's having sex with a man before they're married, or before doing a complete background check on him? Or is it the man's fault for seeking out sex in that way in the first place? Why take the blame off of him?

I've called such men perverts from the beginning. They should be prosecuted as well.

 

[egroen]

Polaris, what do you suggest then?

Prostitution is already illegal, and yet many estimates show there are over one million women in america working today as prostitutes with over 100 million men 'served'.

Do we need tougher laws, should we criminalize these women even more? In many middle eastern countries prostitution is punishable by death... yet prostitutes are not hard to come by in the middle east either. What is your solution? Instead of mere death, should we castrate these men and women? Would that deter the natural human tendency to copulate?

Let's recall the troops from Iraq, expand the police force by 100,000,000% and put one in every bedroom, every hotel room and every dorm room... nip it right in the bud! We could builds thousands and thousands of prisons to hold and execute all these offenders. Why don't we simply do the same with all forms of sex outside of marriage and perversion? Not only would we get rid of those pesky prostitutes, but those dreadful gays and hormonal teenagers as well!

Quit living in a fanciful, 'everyone will be good, if we tell them to be' world!

-Erin

 

[egroen]

I'm yet to hear one thing that prostitution does to benefit society.

Every taxable profession benefits society. Taxing a million, legal prostitutes equals a lot of money to help our public schools and municipalities. Now, all that money is untaxable and goes directly to the pimp's pockets.

-Erin

 

[cardero]

Which brings us to the question, "How do you make a hormone?"

A wise man once said:

"Eventually, everyone pays for sex"-Probably A. Father

People seem to place some sexpectation on this kind of intimacy.

 

[Polaris]

Prostitution is already illegal, and yet many estimates show there are over one million women in america working today as prostitutes with over 100 million men 'served'.

Good idea, so anytime there are x number of people who break a law, lets just give up and make it legal.

Do we need tougher laws, should we criminalize these women even more? In many middle eastern countries prostitution is punishable by death... yet prostitutes are not hard to come by in the middle east either. What is your solution? Instead of mere death, should we castrate these men and women? Would that deter the natural human tendency to copulate?

Let's recall the troops from Iraq, expand the police force by 100,000,000% and put one in every bedroom, every hotel room and every dorm room... nip it right in the bud! We could builds thousands and thousands of prisons to hold and execute all these offenders. Why don't we simply do the same with all forms of sex outside of marriage and perversion? Not only would we get rid of those pesky prostitutes, but those dreadful gays and hormonal teenagers as well!

That was impressive, you drug in almost every hot topic... you forgot border control, gasoline prices, and NSA tapping though. All I'm suggesting is that we don't change the law to legalize something that is harmful to society.

Quit living in a fanciful, 'everyone will be good, if we tell them to be' world!

What, have you even read my posts? We need laws against prostitution because people can't be trusted to "be good, if we tell them to be".

Every taxable profession benefits society. Taxing a million, legal prostitutes equals a lot of money to help our public schools and municipalities. Now, all that money is untaxable and goes directly to the pimp's pockets.

Oh, I see... it's all for the children. I will be proud to one day tell my teenager that millions of women subject themselves to perverts so he can have a good education. Sorry, tax money is a pretty lame excuse for legalizing a crime. Let's review the pros and cons of legalized prostitution.

Potential pros:
- tax money
- perverts get their temporary hormonal fix (ok, I added this one.. "tax money" was looking lonely)

Potential cons:
- physical and emotional abuse (sorry, legalizing prostitution isn't going to magically make this go away)
- STDs
- unwanted pregnancies
- destoyed families
- attracts perverts and criminals
- engenders increased sexual promiscuity
- increased human trafficking (now it's legal so why not)

Looks like I still have plenty reason to stand firmly against legalizing prostitution.

 

[MaddLlama]

Hold on, you're the one asserting that the law needs to be changed, the burden of proof is on you. It's your responsibility to prove that the law is harmful and that legalizing prostitution will not be harmful to society; evidence and reason suggest that it will.

I already have, you just weren't listening. In the places where it IS legal, it is controlled, nobody is exploited, and it's only harmful to prudish sensibilities and has no real damaging effect on society.

How does the illegality of prostitution limit women's freedom to have sex any more than the men who illegally solicit them? Both are breaking the law and both should be prosecuted.

Why though? Because money is involved? Is it just as bad for someone to have non-commital sex every night with a different person? Should that be prosecutable too? Or, is that perfectly OK because there's no exchanging of money happening?

How is the law harmful? Prostitution is illegal. How is that harmful? Just because some women may be forced into prostitution by some abusive person, doesn't mean we should legalize prostitution... it means we should find and prosecute the abuser. The others who choose to be prostitutes clearly do so at their own risk and knowingly without legal protection, that's their choice, that doesn't make the law harmful, it's their decision that's potentially harmful.

No, it means that women will have the choice to go into the profession, and know that if they do they'll be protected - from disease, abuse, and exploitation. Why should the law have any say in who I have sex with, when and for what reason? If I want to have sex with someone just because I feel like it, what exactly is the harm in that?

Millions of people work successfully with money every day without it destroying their families? Similarly millions of married men work in a non-segregated work environment each day without giving in or even considering infidelity? Money and non-segregated work environments serve a good purpose. There will always be the few who make a bad situation out of good things.

Ok, but I am still wondering what exactly in your eyes makes a married man who has sex with a prostitute any different than a married man who has sex with a co-worker? You say that prostitution is harmful because it harms families. Forgetting of course that plenty of single men seek out sex in this way, and plenty of married men have sex with women other than prostitutes. You say that keeping prostitution illegal will protect families, but how far are you willing to go to protect them? Is the family important enough to protect children and men from all risk of marital infidelity, or will just getting rid of all the prostitutes drive the crime and divorce rates down so that everyone can live happily ever after.

 

[MaddLlama]

Potential pros:
- tax money
- perverts get their temporary hormonal fix (ok, I added this one.. "tax money" was looking lonely)

Potential cons:
- physical and emotional abuse (sorry, legalizing prostitution isn't going to magically make this go away)
- STDs
- unwanted pregnancies
- destoyed families
- attracts perverts and criminals
- engenders increased sexual promiscuity
- increased human trafficking (now it's legal so why not)

Looks like I still have plenty reason to stand firmly against legalizing prostitution.

Ok, well obviously you haven't been paying attention.

The decriminalization of prostitution comes with regulations on exactly how prostitutes can operate, which have to be followed very precisiely. It will lower the rate of STD's transmitted in this way, because currently where it is legal all women working in brothels are required to have weekly tests, and condoms must be worn at all times (punishable under the law if not followed), and I think a secondary method of birth control is required, but not totally sure. But, it's very likely that most if not all of the women in the legal brothels are on the pill;
Perverts and criminals out to harm prostitutes will be prosecuted, because the strict regulations exist to protect the women, so no physical abuse here;
There will be no pimps, because it would be a legitimate business that has to operate in a very particular way, so there isn't any room for exploitation or trafficking. And being a legitimate business, only people who want to go into the business will, nobody will be forced to, so I don't see how it will be worse for "abuse". The women who work in the legal brothels in Nevada do it because they want to, not because they're forced into it or abused.
And, as far as sexual promiscuity, that only matters for the people who believe religious morality should trump everything else. And on top of all that, we get the tax money. It sounds like a pretty good deal to me.

I've yet to hear any good reason, other than reasons motivated by prudish religious morality, why the law should dictate why two people have sex.

 

[kevmicsmi]

Just because something is morally wrong, imo, does not neccesitate the outlawing of it. Why, in America, do people not have the right to make mutual contractual arangements, which physically or practicaly hurt no one else?

 

[MaddLlama]

Just because something is morally wrong, imo, does not neccesitate the outlawing of it. Why, in America, do people not have the right to make mutual contractual arangements, which physically or practicaly hurt no one else?

Well, morality is a relative thing anyway.

 

[kevmicsmi]

Well, morality is a relative thing anyway.

Maybe I should clarify. Just because something is viewed by me as morally wrong , does not automatically mean it should be illegal.

 

[Ciscokid]

Want to end prostitution? Demand that all prostitues look like Ester from Sanford and Sons.

 

[egroen]

Good idea, so anytime there are x number of people who break a law, lets just give up and make it legal.

Exactly... I am afraid we have to live in the REAL world, my dear. It appears you are living in a vacuum.

There are such things in our society as unenforceable laws: These are laws for "crimes" which, no matter what the punishment, a large percentage of the population will still break the law.

Other examples include drinking, smoking cigarettes and marijuana, gambling, pornography, birth control, homosexuality and adultery.

In many cases, it can be argued the above activities (including prostitution) can be harmful... to society and the individual. Yet if we were able to successfully criminilize and enforce every one of these 'morality sins'... well, let's take a moment to picture exactly what would become of our country.

Martial law would have to be in effect perpetually. This nation would be a militarized zone, in which thousands upon thousands of prisons would have to be built to house all these "criminals". Millions upon millions of americans would need to be incarcerated each and every year. Everything we do would need to be monitored. The government would need to know what everyone was doing, at all times.

Anything short of this scenario is met with spactacular failure and billions of dollars wasted. Prohibition did not work... in fact, alchohol consumption in the USA went up once it was made illegal, and went down once it was legalized.

Is this what you want? Is this what you suggest? You completely ignored my question of: "What do you suggest we do?"

Prostitution is already illegal. Yet millions upon millions pay for sex each year. WHAT DO YOU SUGGEST WE DO TO SOLVE THIS PROBLEM?

I suggest legalizing it. By legalizing prostitution many of the 'potential cons' you listed will be addressed... more so than by keeping it illegal. Let's taker a look at them:

- physical and emotional abuse (sorry, legalizing prostitution isn't going to magically make this go away)

Not magically, but logically. As long as these women are criminals they are easy targets for abuse as there is little threat of repurcussions to the abuser. If a prostitute today is abused, she will not go to the police and file a report.

The real abusers of these women are not the happy and satisfied customers, but the pimps. If prostitution were made legal, most abusive and parasitic pimps would be phased out as women could form legitimate operations of business and unions.

- STDs
- unwanted pregnancies

Legalizing prostitution makes it possible for the government and health officials to regulate the industry. STDs and unwanted pregnancies in counties where prostitution is legal in Nevada are exponentially reduced (customers are required to use condoms).

- destoyed families

A married individual who would visit a prostitute is most likely already in a 'destroyed family'. This is a problem of adultery, plain and simple; not prostitution. Go ahead and try to criminilize adultery

- attracts perverts and criminals

Prostitutes attract criminals because they are 'easy pickings'. Criminals know a prostitute will not go to the police to file a report as long as the prostitutes are criminals themselves.

Legalizing prostitution would get the prostitutes off the streets, into designated areas such as european countries and Nevada currently do. An appropriately zoned, taxed and health-regulated legal prostitution industry would free women from jail and free many of our precious few police officers to focus on real crime.

- engenders increased sexual promiscuity

So does college
I'm sorry, you simply cannot legislate sex. It is impossible. Adultery, prostitution and 'sex' in general is just as much of a problem in Utah as it is in other areas of the United States... but you can also throw in polygamy, in the case of Utah.

- increased human trafficking (now it's legal so why not)

Huh? Sex trafficking is illegal in the United States... where are you getting your info?

This is exactly my point. Prostitution is already illegal and yet all the 'cons' you listed are still a huge problem. How would you go about fixing them? I have given my suggestion... and in places where prostitution is made legal and regulated, these problems are greatly diminished.

The time has come to legalize prostitution.

-Erin

 

[egroen]

Oh, I see... it's all for the children. I will be proud to one day tell my teenager that millions of women subject themselves to perverts so he can have a good education. Sorry, tax money is a pretty lame excuse for legalizing a crime.

How do you feel right now telling your teenager a good portion of her education is funded by millions of americans who pay alchohol & cigarette taxes as well as gambling (state lotteries)?

Ever heard of 'numbers running'? You might not have, because it really does not exist anymore... why? Because we legalized it. Numbers Running is exactly what the states now do in the form of the lottery. It is nothing more than gambling. For decades it was an illegal activity, yet millions of americans gambled and gave their money to street gangs and organized criminal organizations.

By legalizing it, the criminal element of numbers running is a thing of the past. Instead of lining the pockets of criminals, the money goes to our public schools. California State lotteries alone have given more than $17 billion to public schools.

Is this a lame excuse? Should we make numbers running illegal again?

-Erin

 

[Mike182]

OK.

The child comes into the world under the following circumstances:
- Single mother who likely doesn't even know who the father is and has likely never had any emotional tie to him whatsoever.
- Mom spends a good part of her evenings and/or weekends "entertaining" perverted men.

Sorry, but I believe a child deserves more than that.

the problem here is your assumption that a woman would carry on prostitution, why is that necessarily the case? you are right the mother probably doesn't know who the father is, or has had any emotional ties with him.... so?

To a point that's true, but legalizing prostitution doesn't help. Legalizing prostitution facilitates inappropriate sexual encounters. Making inappropriate sexual encounters more accessable only increases the likelyhood of marital infidelity. If prostitution becomes too accessible, all it will take is a little too much to drink one night on a business trip, or a moment of weakness or depression and bang, a destructive line has been crossed. We can hope that all men would have a little more sense than that, but unfortunately some don't and need the protection of the law and its consequences.

you really do not see the advantages do you. in a Government fun institution, drunk people will be turned away, whereas at the moment, drunk people are freely allowed to do so - how is stopping drunk people from having access to prostitution a bad thing? your logic alludes me...

Hold on, you're the one asserting that the law needs to be changed, the burden of proof is on you. It's your responsibility to prove that the law is harmful and that legalizing prostitution will not be harmful to society; evidence and reason suggest that it will.

i believe the benefits of legalized prostitution have been laid out, and they are clearly more beneficial than illegal prostitution and hiding from the problems it presents

 

[michel]

i believe the benefits of legalized prostitution have been laid out, and they are clearly more beneficial than illegal prostitution and hiding from the problems it presents

I think that says it all.