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Western Hinduisms

mangalavara

सो ऽहम्
Premium Member
Namaste, everyone.

Having learned about some of the differences between Indian Hinduism and Balinese Hinduism, I have wondered what Western expressions of Hinduism would look like. By ‘Western expressions of Hinduism,’ I don’t mean SBNR (so called ‘spiritual but not religious’) individuals in Western countries doing āsanas at a ‘yoga studio,’ drinking ‘chai tea’ from Starbucks, and talking about ‘carma.’ What I mean is something that might not exist yet: cultural expressions of Hinduism formed by peoples such as Greeks, Italians, Norwegians, Scots, Poles, Lithuanians, etc.

A Greek Hinduism, for example, might include the observance of a revived Attik Calendar or Makedonian Calendar; doing pūjā with traditional, ancient Greek practices such as libations of milk and water and burning frankincense; and worshipping divinities such as nymphs. Moreover, the festivals on the calendar would have Greek names and Hellenized Sanskrit names. The festivals may be completely new or Hinduized Hellenic ones. Temple architecture would be Greek (imagine Viṣṇu and Śiva temples that look like structures in Santorini). Mūrtis would look Hellenic (in my opinion, the ancient Greeks made fine Buddha sculptures). What this Greek Hinduism would have in common with Indian Hinduism would be Sanskrit as a liturgical language, qualified Brahmins, the same scriptures, the same darśanas, etc. Would the sampradāyas be the same? I don’t know. There might be new ones or even none at all.

What do you think? Personally, I feel that such Western cultural expressions of Sanātana Dharma would be fascinating just as Balinese Hinduism is fascinating. If this sounds good to Hindus in the West—be they of Asian or European origin—how might we establish these Western cultural expressions of the Eternal Dharma?
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
During the psychedelic influenced '60s and '70s, Hindu influence here in the US was at its peak. Ashrams, Hindu themed businesses, songs, organizations and communes were everywhere.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Let it happen naturally (if it happens). Will they still consider themselves to be Hindus as (reportedly) the Balinese do? There may be things that I will resent, like Yogananda's views, Arya Samaj, Brahmakumaris, Ayyavazhi, Swaminarayans, etc. (especially when they start considering the founders of their sects as Gods or representatives thereof in the Abrahamic fashion). Hinduism has no such space.

Idols and temples in Greek style will be interesting. The Greeks sure did a nice job with Buddha. The rituals may not be in Sanskrit and could be a little different. It is not that all Hindus in India have Sanskrit as their liturgical language.
 
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ajay0

Well-Known Member
I am actually in awe of some western Hindu scholars, saints and sages who have a much superior understanding of Advaita Vedanta as well as teaching skills, compared to some Indian Hindus who profess to be 'advaitans' and spread ignorance and nonsense acting as 'wise men' .

Sivaya Subramaniyaswami is a good example of a Western hindu sage and scholar. He also founded the quarterly magazine 'Hinduism Today' which has a wide circulation around the world.

Mooji, Madhukar, Gangaji were disciples of H.W.Poonja who became enlightened masters in their own right.

Robert Adams was a disciple of Ramana Maharshi and enlightened as well.

Shantimayi who was a disciple of Sri Hansraj Maharajji, the head of the ancient Sacha lineage, is an enlightened master as well.

Dr.Jean Klein of France , who was a student of Kashmir Shaivism and Advaita was enlightened and taught Advaita in a brilliant fashion. Nondual teacher Francis Lucille was Kleins disciple.

Sailor Bob Adamson who was a disciple of Nisargadatta Maharaj, similarly became an eloquent enlightened master in his own right. Nondual teacher Gilbert Schultz was his disciple.
 
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mangalavara

सो ऽहम्
Premium Member
Let it happen naturally (if it happens).

I think that would be the best way.

Will they still consider themselves to be Hindus as (reportedly) the Balinese do?

As long as they don't trade a Hindu worldview for an indigenous European worldview, they may still consider themselves Hindus.

There may be things that I will resent, like Yogananda's views, Arya Samaj, Brahmakumaris, Ayyavazhi, Swaminarayans, etc.

I am also not a fan of those things.

The rituals may not be in Sanskrit and could be a little different. It is not that all Hindus in India have Sanskrit as their liturgical language.

I forgot about that. Popular bhajans, for example, are in other languages, yeah.
 

Sirona

Hindu Wannabe
I am probably in the wrong forum but neopagan versions of ancient European religions already do exist, and I've never heard any of those religions claiming to be "Hinduism". It's more like "I worship Hindu gods but I also worship neopagan deity X. Am I a Hindu?"

I believe that Hinduism is received more in esoteric religions and commercial esotericism / New Age. It is about "energies", "vibrations", karma, and chakras. See Yogananda. A mix of technobabble, Hindu concepts and a lip service to Jesus as the icing of the cake.
 

Notthedarkweb

Indian phil, German idealism, Rawls
I mean, I think the general problem with this approach is a disconnect from the actual philosophical claims made by Hindu philosophers and theologians in favour of a very nebulous Neo-Vedantin conception of how the faith is supposed to work, which emphatically isn't how it is intended. Even devotionalism as a method towards liberation (my antipathy to it notwithstanding) isn't liberatory due to a self-reflexive apprehension as its status as devotion towards its object, but because it is a method of acting upon cognition of truth, which is quite antithetical to any mechanical application of Hinduism to foreign contexts, stripped of any spiritualism and saying, hey, Zeus is now your God. That's not how it works, and it's insulting to both Hinduism and those who study these ancient pagan faiths to impute that this is how it works.


Note what I'm saying: the orthopraxy that undergirds Hindu practice cannot be divorced from the theory of it, and the Hesiodic myth-cycle is deeply antithetical to it. Though certain conceptions of the creator-God (like Plato' Demiurge) might parallel how creator gods in the old Nyaya-Vaisesika system would operate, even if that's still a stretch.
 
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Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
I an very wary of 'western Hinduisms' despite being a westerner. Neo-advaita, in particular has a cringe factor for me, but so do some yoga studios. I'm a traditionalist.
 

mangalavara

सो ऽहम्
Premium Member
I am probably in the wrong forum but neopagan versions of ancient European religions already do exist, and I've never heard any of those religions claiming to be "Hinduism". It's more like "I worship Hindu gods but I also worship neopagan deity X. Am I a Hindu?"

I an very wary of 'western Hinduisms' despite being a westerner. Neo-advaita, in particular has a cringe factor for me, but so do some yoga studios.

What I don’t have in mind are European reconstructionist religions or even Neo-Hinduism. What I was talking about was the possibility of there being European cultural expressions of Hinduism in the same way that there is the Balinese cultural expression of Hinduism.

A Roman expression of Hinduism, for example, would use the Julian Calendar and feature the worship of Lares and Di Penates. All other deities would be the same as in Hinduism elsewhere. Latin would be used along with Sanskrit. The śāstras and darśanas would be the same as in Hinduism elsewhere. The worldviews would be Hindu worldviews, not an Ancient Roman one.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
What I don’t have in mind are European reconstructionist religions or even Neo-Hinduism. What I was talking about was the possibility of there being European cultural expressions of Hinduism in the same way that there is the Balinese cultural expression of Hinduism.

A Roman expression of Hinduism, for example, would use the Julian Calendar and feature the worship of Lares and Di Penates. All other deities would be the same as in Hinduism elsewhere. Latin would be used along with Sanskrit. The śāstras and darśanas would be the same as in Hinduism elsewhere. The worldviews would be Hindu worldviews, not an Ancient Roman one.

I'm really ignorant on that subject, and the closest I've heard of that might have some bearing is the Roma.
 

Sirona

Hindu Wannabe
What I don’t have in mind are European reconstructionist religions or even Neo-Hinduism. What I was talking about was the possibility of there being European cultural expressions of Hinduism in the same way that there is the Balinese cultural expression of Hinduism.

Don't know where I read this but it was about the fact that kirtans by Westerners are [obviously] more simple than original Indian kirtans for lack of knowledge of Indian languages, often containing only the names of God(s). Then there are also artists who arrange kirtan in Western style, often the style of New Age / "relaxation music".

I personally like to listen to Deva Premal, who is German.


I also like such kirtans arranged in in rock and pop style.


Some techno / trance music:


Are you looking for those kinds of examples, @mangalavara ?
 
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Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
What I was talking about was the possibility of there being European cultural expressions of Hinduism in the same way that there is the Balinese cultural expression of Hinduism.

A Roman expression of Hinduism, for example, would use the Julian Calendar and feature the worship of Lares and Di Penates. All other deities would be the same as in Hinduism elsewhere. Latin would be used along with Sanskrit. The śāstras and darśanas would be the same as in Hinduism elsewhere. The worldviews would be Hindu worldviews, not an Ancient Roman one.
I would not be averse to it, though I would tread cautiously. Perhaps it will come in time. Pagan Gods delight me.

Yeah, Julian/Gregorian calandar can be used till something better comes up. The official Indian calendar is 'Saka Salivahana', which is a solar calendar and goes well with Julian calendar. It is supposed to have been created by Kanishka, the Kushan king. It is used in Java, Bali and Indonesia. Nepal Calendar also has evolved from 'Saka' calendar.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Don't know where I read this but it was about the fact that kirtans by Westerners are [obviously] more simple than original Indian kirtans for lack of knowledge of Indian languages, often containing only the names of God(s).
I also like such kirtans arranged in in rock and pop style.
Not only the lack of knowledge of language but also lack of the background to understand the deeper meanings of the such song. One comes to know that after association for some time (years). Same goes for Urdu poetry.
Yeah, some of the pop devotional songs are very interesting.
 

Sirona

Hindu Wannabe
Yeah, Julian/Gregorian calandar can be used till something better comes up. The official Indian calendar is 'Saka Salivahana', which is a solar calendar and goes well with Julian calendar. It is supposed to have been created by Kanishka, the Kushan king. It is used in Java, Bali and Indonesia. Nepal Calendar also has evolved from 'Saka' calendar.

The calendar the Hare Krishnas provide seems to be based on the moon. They count the days after new moon and full moon. Still, I know that Hindu calendars are a complicated topic.
 

mangalavara

सो ऽहम्
Premium Member
Are you looking for those kinds of examples, @mangalavara ?

What I have in mind are kirtans using traditional European instruments.

I would not be averse to it, though I would tread cautiously. Perhaps it will come in time. Pagan Gods delight me

Regarding pagan deities, Roman Hinduism, for example, would not feature the worship of Olympians. Roman Hindus would worship well-known Hindu deities as well as Lares and Di Penates. This would be analogous to the animism in Balinese Hinduism.

Yeah, Julian/Gregorian calandar can be used till something better comes up.

Roman Hinduism could feature the Julian Calendar (as in the case of the Ancient Romans), or a sidereal solar calendar with Latin names.

One comes to know that after association for some time (years).

This reminds me that the more Indian Hindus I listen to, the better I understand Hinduism.
 

Sirona

Hindu Wannabe
What I have in mind are kirtans using traditional European instruments.

Well, Rasa (Hans Christian and Kim Waters) uses a cello. There also seems to be a Russian band called RASA, which has nothing to do with them.


Lila Shakti uses a cello, too.

 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
The calendar the Hare Krishnas provide seems to be based on the moon. They count the days after new moon and full moon. Still, I know that Hindu calendars are a complicated topic.
That is right. Most Hindu religious calendars are based on the luni-solar Vikram Samvat (Calandar). That is what even the Indo-Europeans in Central Asia used.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Regarding pagan deities, Roman Hinduism, for example, would not feature the worship of Olympians. Roman Hindus would worship well-known Hindu deities as well as Lares and Di Penates. This would be analogous to the animism in Balinese Hinduism.
Roman Hinduism could feature the Julian Calendar (as in the case of the Ancient Romans), or a sidereal solar calendar with Latin names.
This reminds me that the more Indian Hindus I listen to, the better I understand Hinduism.
Many of the Pagan Gods and Goddesses already have their equivalent in Hinduism, Thor and Indra, for example. After all, they are from the same source.
Julian calendar is a modified Indo-European calendar. Emperor Numa adding two months (January and February) around 700 BCE.
My posts are towards that end only.
 
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