Wealth Inequality

[Twilight Hue]

This illustrates how out of whack our system is (and not just the US). Sooner or later, one way or another, this will be fixed.

I really don't see how.

It's those people who are in charge, have all the power now, and pulling every string to keep it the status quo and business as usual.

I suspect it's in way too deep and far too entrenched for any kind of reform from ever happening with any generation existing today.

 

[Friend of Mara]

Hey, if anyone ever shoots for a tethered pay scale......


We could discuss it over a few vodkas at Putin's place!

People making money based on their value to society. I'd drink to that.

 

[Twilight Hue]

People making money based on their value to society. I'd drink to that.

I would say value for the contribution made to a company that makes it prosper. If a CEO makes more, then it's workers ought to as well in conjunction with that increase each and every time.

Without workers a company is nothing. No matter how smart a CEO is.

 

[Friend of Mara]

I would say value for the contribution made to a company that makes it prosper. If a CEO makes more, then it's workers ought to as well in conjunction with that increase each and every time.

Without workers a company is nothing. No matter how smart a CEO is.

Yeah but we get conflict of interest when CEO's make money based on how much profit the business makes and profit is money made-expenses and wages are considered and expense. But I agree that it would be a good step that if Amazon gave all of their employees a raise every time the CEO also got a raise.

 

[Vinayaka]

Bezos could give each employee a $200 000 bonus, and still have a few bucks left over.

 

[WalterTrull]

Andrew Carnegie had an interesting view.

 

[Nakosis]

Well I do have my opinions on Jeff and there are a millions reasons why I don't like him that we could get into and choices he specifically has made to harm others for his own benefit BUUUUUUT I will concede that I don't hate people for simply having money. It is the system that needs to change.

That's fair. I don't really know him well enough to like or dislike him. I don't trust the media enough to think I really know a person. I usually get along with most people in person. Also I'm not really against the system changing. I think though the fault is with human nature and not the system.

I disagree that this can be done without harming the wealth of billionaires. We need progressive taxation for public services to help equalize the playing field for all people. That will cut into his wealth and those like him. The second part is taking advances in workers rights. That is REALLY gonna hit him harder than the taxes. I'll go more into it below.

So people see this like wealth is a slice of the pie. Whatever size of the slice you take leaves less pie for everyone else. However, this pie is different. You can take whatever slice of the pie you are capable of cutting off and the pie simply grows to accommodate you. The more pie you eat, the bigger the pie becomes and the end result is there is more pie for everyone.

False. Jeffrimaya himself works to keep wages low. He works to make sure unions cannot infringe on sucking the most surplus value out of people as possible.

IMO, this is where the lack of knowledge comes into play. Most people either end up over valuating themselves or under valuating themselves. Because of this people can get taken advantage of. The government has this same inability. So they usually end up trying to make one size to fit all. So people end up getting overpaid or underpaid just the same. The only real solution is for people to learn their actual value and in knowing what their actual value is, also knowing how to increase it.

The only way to increase wealth to that degree is by siphoning the wealth off of others. If every package handler, order filler, driver, boxer, bagger and manager made even half of what they were worth to the company he might not even be a billionaire. Lets not get started on how he attempts to squeeze literally every other market even if it hurts his own profit temporarily to maintain a monopoly. Every gain he has had has come to the detriment of the rest of the economic world.

Same with walmart and every other mass chain global corporation.

If everyone is getting paid their worth, then I'd expect Bezos to become even richer. If you are making the best possible pie and there are more people out there that can afford it you are going to be selling more of it.

 

[Nakosis]

Andrew Carnegie had an interesting view.

"By taxing estates heavily at death the State" Only marks the State getting wealthier with no guaranteed benefit to anyone else.

 

[Stevicus]

Lot of conflicting opinions on this in this site. Found this recently and it seemed relevant. If you got a few minutes go ahead and scroll through. Then with a strait face tell me why its justified.


Wealth, shown to scale

It's not justified.

Quite some time ago, I started a thread called "A Challenge to Capitalists," in which I challenged people who are pro-capitalist to prove mathematically (showing their work) that CEOs and other super-rich individuals actually deserve their wealth and that they have proven value to society at large. You can imagine what debacle that was, as the mealy-mouthed capitalists tried in vain to find ways to avoid answering the question directly.

 

[Nakosis]

I disagree that all have equal access to success. While I think most have the ability to gain some, not all can make ends meet. Sometimes disabilities or other circumstances come into play, other times its other obligations.

My friend once took a class on getting out of poverty. They stressed to the students, much to her(and mine, when she told me) surprise, its not about what you know, its who you know. Do you have good contacts? Have you got a good support system? Another issue was being confident enough to maintain and build contacts.

I think its counterproductive for anyone who's got food in their fridge and a roof over their head to sit around and worry about Jeff Bezos, but someone working in a nursing home full time shouldn't worry about whether or not they can buy fruit for the kids or whether or not they can see a doctor for the cough they've had for the last three months.

It would just be nice to see some general basic life standards for everybody, but not everybody seems to be able to maintain that. Sometimes it really is sheer laziness, but most of the time its complicated. I don't know what it would take to get us there, but what we're doing now doesn't seem to be working for far too many people.

So...

My wife works in a nursing home. Makes quite a bit actually. More than me anyway. She has help many people become self-sufficient by showing folks how to become a valuable part of such a care facility. So yes, knowing my wife is beneficial. I think we need more people like like her, teaching folks how to increase their worth. I think if everyone gets taught how to increase their worth, then there will be plenty of wealth available to help the disabled.

My problem is, I'm not really against taxes, my problem is I see the government asking for more money and not really fixing anything with it. If I give my money to Bezos, at least I'm getting free delivery.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Bezos' billions have no affect on my wealth or my ability to make money. I've no idea why people have to spend so much time worrying about what the other guy has got.

This. Really, how does this affect my life?
Am I supposed to be jealous or angry or what?
Why would I want to have that much money, anyway?

 

[Wildswanderer]

It's not justified.

Quite some time ago, I started a thread called "A Challenge to Capitalists," in which I challenged people who are pro-capitalist to prove mathematically (showing their work) that CEOs and other super-rich individuals actually deserve their wealth and that they have proven value to society at large. You can imagine what debacle that was, as the mealy-mouthed capitalists tried in vain to find ways to avoid answering the question directly.

Who cares if they deserve it or not? How is that even my judgment to make?

 

[Stevicus]

Who cares if they deserve it or not? How is that even my judgment to make?

It's the people's judgment to make. If the people are being cheated out of their fair share, it's in society's interests to balance things out. It's only fair.

 

[Heyo]

So people see this like wealth is a slice of the pie. Whatever size of the slice you take leaves less pie for everyone else. However, this pie is different. You can take whatever slice of the pie you are capable of cutting off and the pie simply grows to accommodate you. The more pie you eat, the bigger the pie becomes and the end result is there is more pie for everyone.

Maybe I should be even more against religion than I am and do more against it. People believing in magic do hurt us all.

 

[Wildswanderer]

It's the people's judgment to make. If the people are being cheated out of their fair share, it's in society's interests to balance things out. It's only fair.

How am I being cheated? I haven't been robbed by any billionaire.

 

[Nakosis]

Who cares if they deserve it or not? How is that even my judgment to make?

I agree, it is not whether they deserve it. I don't think I could realistically make that assessment anyway. However I believe some contribute quite a bit to society, and others maybe not so much.

It's about whether they can create it. The more people who can create wealth, the more it benefits society. Bezos needs competition.

 

[epronovost]

Everyone profits from healthy competition.

That's incorrect. A competition has by definition and necessity at least one loser. The loser doesn't benefit from the competition.

I can't expect others to pay me in excess of my value.

There is no rational system of value assesment of your skills or of your work. To even think that there could be a system that rationaly sorts out the value of things as radically different as "accounting" and "washing respectfully gran-gran everyday so that she retains a modicum of human dignity in her final years" and is absurd. Value is currently imparted by people who have the most resources and, without surprise, what those people do and what those people like has the most value irrespective of any other forms

I don't see taking the wealth of others as adding to my wealth. I'm then just being carried along by the work of others. I think think anyone really wants this and would clearly avoid it if they knew how.

That's what every business owner does though. They take the work of others to make money and add to their personal wealth. Everybody does this since that's what living in society means. We all rely on other's people skills and work for our lifestyle and other people rely on your or my skill for their lifestyle and together we can make this stuff called "civilization".

Our current economical and political systems were built by aristocrats, wealthy merchants, bankers and early industrialists. Without surprise what these men did, were good at and wanted to do was judged of utmost value and thus the way to generate wealth. The closest you are in behavior, appearance, values and skills to those people the easier it is to become wealthy. The furthest away you are the least wealth you will have.

And increased the wealth of everyone in doing so.

Not really no. To amass such wealth some people get a lot less from the sweat of their brow then others. That's why Jeff has so much billions he doesn't know what to do with it while many of the people who help make Amazon such an efficient company struggle to make ends meet. Thanks to Jeff's decisions, they get next to nothing from their skills and work even if without that work the entire edifice of Amazon would collapse. Jeff increased his wealth and provided a service to customers, but he did not increase the wealth of the average "Amazon grunt". In fact, the rising level of wealth inequality shows that Amazon, Jeff and others like him and like his company have decreased the wealth and purchase power of a solid chunk of the population.

 

[JustGeorge]

So...

My wife works in a nursing home. Makes quite a bit actually. More than me anyway. She has help many people become self-sufficient by showing folks how to become a valuable part of such a care facility. So yes, knowing my wife is beneficial. I think we need more people like like her, teaching folks how to increase their worth. I think if everyone gets taught how to increase their worth, then there will be plenty of wealth available to help the disabled.

My problem is, I'm not really against taxes, my problem is I see the government asking for more money and not really fixing anything with it. If I give my money to Bezos, at least I'm getting free delivery.

I agree, your wife sounds like she has a valuable place in the scheme of things. (And I'm glad she makes more than I did, I made beans in a group home setting.) But most people have some kind of value, somewhere, even if its not immediately apparent. There's a lot of little guys all over making a difference. Some of it makes money, some doesn't. But, even low paying jobs are valuable. I've never needed a lawyer, but I have needed a gas station attendant countless times. Now that there are not enough gas station attendants around, I find myself rearranging my lifestyle to make sure I never run out of gas after 10pm. (Most 24 hour gas stations locally have started shutting down early because they can't find workers.)

I feel as long as we're putting in something somewhere, we shouldn't have to worry about the bare necessities. There's obviously enough to go around.

I don't really trust our government to be fair with distributing money, either. Honestly, I'd scrap the whole system and go back to the drawing board.

 

[Shaul]

Any wealth inequality pales compared to the envy inequality. A person’s envy does them more harm than someone else’s wealth.

 

[Friend of Mara]

That's fair. I don't really know him well enough to like or dislike him. I don't trust the media enough to think I really know a person. I usually get along with most people in person. Also I'm not really against the system changing. I think though the fault is with human nature and not the system.

Then genetically modify humans easy peasy.

But we can get into the specifics of things he has done that are objectively wrong if you'd like. I feel like its a deviation though.

So people see this like wealth is a slice of the pie. Whatever size of the slice you take leaves less pie for everyone else. However, this pie is different. You can take whatever slice of the pie you are capable of cutting off and the pie simply grows to accommodate you. The more pie you eat, the bigger the pie becomes and the end result is there is more pie for everyone.

Its not so simple. There are people that think there is a purely finite amount of pie and they are wrong. People like you who think there is no correlation are also very wrong. In order for people to make more money at a job they have to get paid more. That means less profit for the store. The market is finite. There are only so many dollars in the pockets of people. Actually getting that money into the pockets of people would be much better. I think you messed up the quote marks on your last bit there but I shall respond to it here.

If they were paid what they were worth then Bezos wouldn't have any money. That is the point of capitalism. You "own" something regardless of the amount of work you put into it and it can gain you profit. If the workers made all the money then jeff wouldn't make any. I think in some future society worker co-opt like business models would be the best way to go. However right now that isn't feasible. So what needs to happen is that there have to be forces at work to ensure that workers are paid a fairer compensation.

Also some of the few duties of the government that I advocate for would be busting up monopolies that amazon clearly has. Amazon's only real competitor is walmart which is another whole bag of worms.