Vox Populi, Vox Dei

[RestlessSoul]

I wish Spain to be united. But since the Catalan Nation has decided to be independent, I need to abide by God's will by bowing to this verdict.

Half of Catalonia is in France, has anyone asked the French Catalans what they want? Europe is full of these nations within nations, overlapping borders and ancient enmities. Isn't there a Lombard League in northern Italy that wants to secede from the rest of the country?

Nationalism is a pretty backwards looking approach to geopolitics imo.

 

[Estro Felino]

Half of Catalonia is in France, has anyone asked the French Catalans what they want? Europe is full of these nations within nations, overlapping borders and ancient enmities. Isn't there a Lombard League in northern Italy that wants to secede from the rest of the country?

Nationalism is a pretty backwards looking approach to geopolitics imo.

It is very well-known that economics plays a very significant role in these claims of independence. Northern Italy wants to become economically independent from Rome, because Rome is considered a place of bribed\corrupt politicians.
Do they have a point? I guess they do deserve an economic independence.
In fact they do not want to become a separate state. They consider themselves Italian, they speak Italian (and dialects have almost disappeared).
Au contraire, Catalonia is a nation that speaks a different language than Spanish. So, it is language and identity that play a significant role in that claim of independence (also economics, since Catalonia is one of the richest regions in Spain).

 

[RestlessSoul]

It is very well-known that economics plays a very significant role in these claims of independence. Northern Italy wants to become economically independent from Rome, because Rome is considered a place of bribed\corrupt politicians.
Do they have a point? I guess they do deserve an economic independence.
In fact they do not want to become a separate state. They consider themselves Italian, they speak Italian (and dialects have almost disappeared).
Au contraire, Catalonia is a nation that speaks a different language than Spanish. So, it is language and identity that play a significant role in that claim of independence (also economics, since Catalonia is one of the richest regions in Spain).

Well precisely. Catalonia and the Basque region are the two richest provinces in Spain, so it’s no coincidence they are the regions traditionally most keen on independence. Similarly, it is no coincidence that the drive for Scottish independence coincides with Scotland’s economy being stronger than the rest of the UK’s.

If there is a significant sustained democratic will for independence in any of these places, then I it’s only right that central governments should listen. But if you want to see what happens when smaller nations, regions, states etc secede from larger unions, just consider the complete unmitigated disaster that Brexit has so far proved to be for everyone involved.

 

[Estro Felino]

Well precisely. Catalonia and the Basque region are the two richest provinces in Spain, so it’s no coincidence they are the regions traditionally most keen on independence. Similarly, it is no coincidence that the drive for Scottish independence coincides with Scotland’s economy being stronger than the rest of the UK’s.

If there is a significant sustained democratic will for independence in any of these places, then I it’s only right that central governments should listen. But if you want to see what happens when smaller nations, regions, states etc secede from larger unions, just consider the complete unmitigated disaster that Brexit has so far proved to be for everyone involved.

Scotland had the chance to become independent, but most Scots voted against that, in the referendum.
There has been a referendum in Catalonia, and most Catalans do want to become an independent republic.
Republic which was proclaimed some years ago. And that led to so many convictions and arrests, since the Catalan politicians responsible for that, were criminally prosecuted by the Spanish State.

As for Brexit, I don't see how a banking and financial dictatorship led by shady characters (European Union) could be beneficial for the United Kingdom which keeps its own monetary sovereignty.

 

[paarsurrey]

Premise: This is a religious debate thread. So it is from the point of view of religion, not politics.

Voice of People is voice of God.
Since I believe in this dogma: all that a people, a nation wants and desires, is God's will too. Because I believe in the sacred notion of populus, Volk, narod, ethnos.
And I know that if I go against the People's will, God will punish me. Since I don't want to go to Hell, I will respect any decision taken by a nation through referendums and elections, even if it is against my personal and individualistic wishes or stances.

These work, as is reasonable, in the secular matters and that must be respected, please. Right?
In the ethical, moral and spiritual matters, it doesn't work, reason suggests. Right?

Regards

 

[Estro Felino]

These work, as is reasonable, in the secular matters and that must be respected, please. Right?
In the ethical, moral and spiritual matters, it doesn't work, reason suggests. Right?

Regards

This is meant for the believers of God.
Atheists will not believe in an otherworldly justice.

 

[Truth in love]

Premise: This is a religious debate thread. So it is from the point of view of religion, not politics.

Voice of People is voice of God.
Since I believe in this dogma: all that a people, a nation wants and desires, is God's will too. Because I believe in the sacred notion of populus, Volk, narod, ethnos.
And I know that if I go against the People's will, God will punish me. Since I don't want to go to Hell, I will respect any decision taken by a nation through referendums and elections, even if it is against my personal and individualistic wishes or stances.

while the voice of the people is often good. It is not a safe assurance of the will of God.

People are very prone to being manipulated. The popular will has often picked some pretty scary stuff (French revolution leaps to mind). In the scriptures people are often referred to as sheep which tend to wonder off the correct path.

 

[syo]

Voice of People is voice of God.
Since I believe in this dogma: all that a people, a nation wants and desires, is God's will too. Because I believe in the sacred notion of populus, Volk, narod, ethnos.
And I know that if I go against the People's will, God will punish me. Since I don't want to go to Hell, I will respect any decision taken by a nation through referendums and elections, even if it is against my personal and individualistic wishes or stances.

Do you know Big Brother, the reality show???