Vaccine experience and poll

[Valjean]

This is foreign language to me. Do you mean someone can build natural immunity without needing to have COVID first?

No. Natural immunity is just that -- natural, not built. You're born with it.

I usually hear it as herd immunity not natural immunity.

They're two very different things.

Natural immunity is the result of an innate genetic (RNA or DNA) sequence -- on a gene.
Acquired immunity is caused by the immune system being activated by contact with an antigen -- a potential infectious agent. The immune system produces antibodies, "keyed" to a specific antigen, and remembers them so it can produce more antibodies faster, the next time the antigen's encountered.

The mRNA vaccines work slightly differently, though. They don't go through the usual keying and memory producing sequence, but sort of inject the memory code, itself, into the body, pre-made.
Herd immunity isn't an individual's biological immunity, it's a statistical ratio; its maths.

If an infected individual, on average, infects two other people, the infection will spread and increase in the population. If he infects an average of just one other person, the infection will persist, but not grow. If he infects less than one other person, the infection will die out, or become a rarity, even if some in the 'herd' remain susceptible.
Vaccination attempts to reduce the transmission rate to less than 1:1 by reducing the susceptible population to the point that infected people pass the infection on -- on average -- to less than one person apiece.

I can explain more if you want.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

No. Natural immunity is just that -- natural, not built. You're born with it.
They're two very different things.

Natural immunity is the result of an innate genetic (RNA or DNA) sequence -- on a gene.
Acquired immunity is caused by the immune system being activated by contact with an antigen -- a potential infectious agent. The immune system produces antibodies, "keyed" to a specific antigen, and remembers them so it can produce more antibodies faster, the next time the antigen's encountered.

The mRNA vaccines work slightly differently, though. They don't go through the usual keying and memory producing sequence, but sort of inject the memory code, itself, into the body, pre-made.
Herd immunity isn't an individual's biological immunity, it's a statistical ratio; its maths.

If an infected individual, on average, infects two other people, the infection will spread and increase in the population. If he infects an average of just one other person, the infection will persist, but not grow. If he infects less than one other person, the infection will die out, or become a rarity, even if some in the 'herd' remain susceptible.
Vaccination attempts to reduce the transmission rate to less than 1:1 by reducing the susceptible population to the point that infected people pass the infection on -- on average -- to less than one person apiece.

I can explain more if you want.

Let me look it up by videos. It's easier to follow.

What is your view on Fauci comment on 92? Do you believe COVID is here to stay?

 

[Valjean]

Valjean. If you didn't assume everyone not vaccinated is a carrier then there would be no reason to get vaccinated unless you're taking care of a sick person, work at a hospital, and things like that. However, if you promote vaccination to every single person despite their circumstances, you're assuming people can possibly have COVID asymptomatically and judging them for it.

The reason to get vaccinated is to, 1: reduce the number of people being infected, and 2: achieve herd immunity, thereby, and reduce/eliminate the epidemic.
Noöne assumes everyone/s infected. I don't see how you come to that conclusion.
We assume some people are infected -- as evidenced by covid's persistence. The fact that it's spreading indicates that the transmission rate is >1:1 and the herd immunity ratio hasn't been achieved yet.

We're not promoting vaccination for everyone. Some people aren't candidates for vaccination, for various reasons. We're trying to get enough people vaccinated to reduce the rate of infection, and the numbers infected; with luck, eliminate the disease.

Finally, we are assuming any given person could have covid.

 

[Shadow11]

That's right, there was none and it burned itself out. We have not seen it again. You made an unqualified and unquantified blanket statement that vaccines stop the spread of viruses. And before you even try, no... we cannot know if a vaccine would have stopped the spread of the Spanish Flu. It's your blanket statements and guesses I object to.

They were testing a vaccine it was new technology. The flu happened at the end of the war when people were heading home so you have to remember what was happening at that time - lots of deaths in England where soldiers gathered to go home - there was a lot of movement in the world in those years just like today. It started mild and mutated in some cases you would die within 24 hrs.When everyone got home from the war it slowed down you didn't have hundreds of thousand soldiers going home anymore isolating people again. Today someone can show up from Africa through connecting flights and infect everyone. Its the easy movement in the world that spreads this one so easily.

 

[Valjean]

Let me look it up by videos. It's easier to follow.

What is your view on Fauci comment on 92? Do you believe COVID is here to stay?

Alas, Fauci might well be right. I'm still hopeful, though. If we can get enough people vaccinated, we might be able to stop it, locally, anyway.

 

[Valjean]

I'm saying the vaccine isn't needed for people who aren't at high risk. It's more of personal preference not necessity. Kind of like taking a painkiller just in case one gets a headache. Necessity depends on a good number of factors that may be appropriate for one person and not another. I'm not sure how that has to do with the vaccine and rate of transmission. In itself it works. Some may benefit from it more than others. Some it is necessary and others personal choice.

The fact that the infection is persisting or spreading indicates that non high risk people getting, and spreading, it. Regular people, just going about their business, are getting it.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

It's like any other vaccine jab. Your arm's a little sore the next day, and that's it.

I got sick with body aches, fatigue, and headaches for EVERY SINGLE VACCINE I got this year, including the flu shot and tetanus booster (that was the worst!).

Still, I am up to the booster and will keep on with it. Vaccines are a medical miracle and it's worth it.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The fact that the infection is persisting or spreading indicates that non high risk people getting, and spreading, it. Regular people, just going about their business, are getting it.

I doubt that. Any illness high risk people will be infected and spread more than low risk. Law of nature, for lack of better words.

 

[Valjean]

Did you read or comprehend anything I wrote?

I read it, but some of it didn't make sense.
Could you respond to post #

I doubt that. Any illness high risk people will be infected and spread more than low risk. Law of nature, for lack of better words.

That's true. Hi-risk people are more likely to become infected and spread it, but more likely doesn't mean exclusively. There are a lot more non high risk persons than high risk. Numerically, most people who catch it are in the medium risk majority, and catch it from their medium risk acquaintances.

Vaccinating only the high risk won't stop the virus spreading through the general population.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I read it, but some of it didn't make sense.
Could you respond to post #

That's true. Hi-risk people are more likely to become infected and spread it, but more likely doesn't mean exclusively. There are a lot more non high risk persons than high risk. Numerically, most people who catch it are in the medium risk majority, and catch it from their medium risk acquaintances.

Vaccinating only the high risk won't stop the virus spreading through the general population.

In those respects those in tighter populations would benefit more. I don't see it disappearing because everyone got vaccinated. I wonder if it would just burn out like the comment with the Spanish flu. How would you get someone to have an inherent purpose to vaccinate without imposing on their morals ?

The government can't get people to vaccinate out if the blue. They set up things like giving citizens a feeling they're fighting for a cause or "we can do this [together]" type of thing. How do you get people to vaccinate without indoctrinating people to do so?

 

[Valjean]

In those respects those in tighter populations would benefit more. I don't see it disappearing because everyone got vaccinated. I wonder if it would just burn out like the comment with the Spanish flu. How would you get someone to have an inherent purpose to vaccinate without imposing on their morals ?

Most of the objections I've heard are more political than moral.

The government can't get people to vaccinate out if the blue. They set up things like giving citizens a feeling they're fighting for a cause or "we can do this [together]" type of thing. How do you get people to vaccinate without indoctrinating people to do so?

I think it's indoctrination that's fueling most of the objections. Maybe we need to de-indoctrinate people.

New York managed to vaccinate six million people in just a few weeks, back in '47, when a smallpox case showed up. I guess the anti-vaxers were slow off the mark, back then.
How New York Vaccinated Six Million People Against Smallpox in One Month

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Most of the objections I've heard are more political than moral.

I can see that on both sides. Freedom of choice is cultural and to a lot of people moral (can you imagine someone forcing a vaccinated person Not to take the vaccine when they feel they may be asymptomatic and infect the world?). Provaxxers see things as moral such as saving the world and also political in how they treat antivaxxers, mandates, and disregard to antivax who are sick with COVID. That's totally not just a moral position (least in my books) but a political one.

I think it's indoctrination that's fueling most of the objections. Maybe we need to de-indoctrinate people.

New York managed to vaccinate six million people in just a few weeks, back in '47, when a smallpox case showed up. I guess the anti-vaxers were slow off the mark, back then.

Provaxxers are indoctrinated (like theist to their atheists). Antivaxxers are just opposing the effects that provaxxers have on what they believe, who they take care of, their livelihood, and all of that. In other words, not all people feel they are walking time bombs so they find ways not to spread the virus without needing to vaccinate. Not the only option, of course but highly politically promoted.

NY governor dropped mandates because he said they reached their limit. How long does it take for them to establish herd immunity so we have an example of how other states can follow suit?

 

[Jainarayan]

There was no effective vaccination for the Spanish flu. The 50M deaths were caused by the flu, itself.

Exactly, and we have never seen it again.

 

[Valjean]

Exactly, and we have never seen it again.

But there was a vaccine for smallpox -- and it's been eradicated.

Epidemics come and go. They can burn themselves out for various reasons, or become endemic at low rates. They can recur at intervals. But they can do a lot of damage before they subside, which is why it's best to deal with them aggressively at the outset, before they gain a foothold or spread.

 

[Valjean]

I can see that on both sides. Freedom of choice is cultural and to a lot of people moral (can you imagine someone forcing a vaccinated person Not to take the vaccine when they feel they may be asymptomatic and infect the world?). Provaxxers see things as moral such as saving the world and also political in how they treat antivaxxers, mandates, and disregard to antivax who are sick with COVID. That's totally not just a moral position (least in my books) but a political one.

I see it more as a eusocial vs anti-social issue. Anti- vaxxers seem to be a lot more radically individualistic and distrustful than vaxxers.

Actions which pose a public risk often are illegal. That's what law is for. People aren't free to choose. Epidemics, though, are rare enough these days that a body of law hasn't emerged -- yet.

I do recall seeing a red "QUARANTINE" sign on a neighbor's door, though, a long time ago. Drs used to quarantine people in their homes routinely, for contageous diseases. And I mentioned Typhoid Mary in a previous post, who spent the last couple decades of her life quarantined on an island.

Provaxxers are indoctrinated (like theist to their atheists). Antivaxxers are just opposing the effects that provaxxers have on what they believe, who they take care of, their livelihood, and all of that. In other words, not all people feel they are walking time bombs so they find ways not to spread the virus without needing to vaccinate. Not the only option, of course but highly politically promoted.

I see it the other way round. Historically, public health or safety mandates were not widely opposed. I think it's the politicization of 'freedom', 'Big Goverment', Radical Liberalism', &c, in recent years, that laid the groundwork for an opportunistic, anti-vax propaganda campaign from the right.
The more liberal pro-vaxxers are just being liberal. They've always supported pro-social, pro-human legislation, movements, and such.

I don't feel I'm a walking time bomb, nor does anyone else I know who's vaccinated. We're just taking reasonable precautions and trying not to harm others. The vaccinations are free, after all, and not particularly onerous -- or dangerous.

NY governor dropped mandates because he said they reached their limit. How long does it take for them to establish herd immunity so we have an example of how other states can follow suit?

It's not how long, but how many that creates herd immunity. It depends on the percentage of the population that can be rendered immune or resistant. We might already have reached that point, had there been no anti-vax movement.

 

[metis]

there have been other vaccines like smallpox mumps to name just two previously used.

Here in the States, the average person is vaccinated against 10 possible diseases prior to even going into elementary school. This is why the hype against the covid vaccines frankly is just nuts. Yes, some people may be wise not getting vaccinated for covid, but they should take such advice from their doctor, not politicians on either side of the aisle.

 

[metis]

One thing should be VERY clear by now with covid, and that is that it more readily mutates more so than most viruses and that they are potentially quite contagious and deadly as we see younger and younger patents getting quite sick and with long-term problems. 1/4 of all patients in ICU are those under 18 nationwide.

Like the various flu vaccines, getting one may be a regular occurrence yearly, and not do so would be like playing Russian roulette with one's self and relatives and friends.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Here in the States, the average person is vaccinated against 10 possible diseases prior to even going into elementary school. This is why the hype against the covid vaccines frankly is just nuts. Yes, some people may be wise not getting vaccinated for covid, but they should take such advice from their doctor, not politicians on either side of the aisle.

Edit
Back then it was involuntary. The argument would work if provax want parents to vax their kids but maybe parents had religious exemptions. There was no coersion and no health crisis. Not at All the same.

I don't know why these sane arguments come up. Seatbelt analogy has a hole in it too.

I can't remember the others at the moment.

 

[metis]

Back then it was involuntary. The argument would work if provax want parents to vax their kids but maybe parents had religious exemptions. There was no coersion and no health crisis. Not at All the same.

Religious exemptions on such matters have historically not been recognized. The reality is that there is no religion or Christian denomination that are officially anti-vacers, as even JW's and the Amish get the vaccine.

I don't know why these sane arguments come up. Seatbelt analogy has a hole in it too.

Not likely, as seatbelts save lives of other passengers as well, plus the Constitution has it that government can "promote the general welfare" even if we don't like it one iota. However, there are limitations.

 

[Leahpolitan_icecream]

Vitamin D3, helps avoid COVID symptoms I think. I take a ton of it. People will be fine whether or not I get it.

Thank you for the information