Uthman collection of Quran (or something else happened)

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And what we understand is that calls for fighting became more common and more of a core value as time went on until surah 9, a continuous call to arms, was finally revealed. Modern-day Islamist extremism is a direct result of the words in the Qur'an and the actions of Mohamed in those final years.

Summarize your understanding of chapter 9 but with some details explaining how you understand it. Don't go super super long quoting every verse, but I want to see your analysis, perhaps you missed some key verses in there that contextualize other ones.

 

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Link, I wrote the following a while back. This is my work, except for the quotes from Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi:



Surah 9 completes the Qur'an (except for a three-verse wrap up). By this time, Islam has virtual control of the Arabian Peninsula and is looking outward for new lands to conquer. The Byzantines are first up. Mohamed gathered a force and marched 330 miles north through the desert to engage them in battle at Tabuk (in self-defense of course). No Byzantines showed up, so he went home.

Despite the absence of actual hostilities, of importance to the overall message of Islam to be taken from this surah is the repeated calls to fight. In terms of historical context, the fact that it is yet again the reluctant Bedouins (the Hypocrites) to whom these verses are directed is not as important as the universality of the message. And of course that message is "fight in the cause of God''.

God must have been in a hurry, because he got right into it:

Verses 9:38 and 9:39 start the tirade with a reminder that fighting is required for admission to Heaven - "O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. If you do not go forth, He will punish you".

We know that God is haranguing 6th century Bedouins, but when taken at face value, this could apply to any Muslim at any time. And if it's not meant as such, then what's the point of including it in the Qur'an?

9:41 again shows that God is not reluctant to repeat himself - "Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah".

9:44 is much more than just another command to fight because of how it is translated into English by three of the seven most trusted Islamic scholars. It says, "(Muhammad Sarwar translation): Those who believe in God and the Day of Judgment do not ask you whether they should fight for the cause of God with their property and in person, or not". The Arabic word translated as "fight" is "jihad" (struggle/strive) rather than "qatl" (fight/kill), yet Yusuf Ali, Mohsin Khan, and Sarwar obviously felt the context of warfare was so clear that they translated it as "fight".

9:45 reiterates that only unbelievers refuse to fight - "It is only those who believe not in Allah and the Last Day and whose hearts are in doubt that ask your leave (to be exempted from Jihad)" [clarification added by Mohsin Khan translation].

9:52 continues berating the Hypocrites for refusing to fight and threatens them with violence - "Say [to the Hypocrites]: Can you expect for us (any fate) other than one of two glorious things- (Martyrdom or victory)? But we can expect for you either that Allah will send his punishment from Himself, or by our hands. So wait (expectant); we too will wait with you". The Hypocrites had a choice - they could fight against the Muslims or with the Muslims. What could not choose was to simply live in peace.

9:73 - "O Prophet, fight against the disbelievers and the hypocrites and be harsh upon them".

The following verses are directed at the Hypocrites of Mohamed's time, but the message that refusing to fight for God is timeless:

9:81 - "they hated to strive and fight with their properties and their lives in the Cause of Allah''.
9:83 - "You shall never go out with me nor fight with me against a foe. You were content with sitting still the first time. So sit still, with the useless".
9:86 - "And whenever a chapter is revealed, saying: Believe in Allah and strive hard along with His Messenger, they ask permission of you and say: Leave us (behind), that we may be with those who sit".
9:87 - "They preferred to be with those who remained behind, and a seal is set on their hearts so they do not understand".
9:88 - "But the messenger and those who believe with him strive with their wealth and their lives".
9:90 - "And the Bedouins came with their excuses, asking for leave [from fighting]".
9:93 - "The blameworthy ones are those who ask for exemption despite their ability and who preferred to stay at home with those who are truly exempt".
9:94 - "They will present their excuses to you".
Verses 9:95 through 9:98 not only heap more abuse on the Hypocrites, but drive home the fact that their refusal to fight makes them "impure, wrongdoing, stubborn in disbelief, and resentful of spending in the cause of God".
Verse 9:105 - "Work; and God will surely see your work" (and others like it that I have not bothered to cite) are more subtle. If read alone, "work" does not obviously refer to fighting. It takes context to see that jihad is the job at hand.
Verse 9:111 illustrates the final direction in which Islam was taken in its two decades of evolution - "Surely Allah has bought of the believers their persons and their property for this, that they shall have the garden; they fight in Allah's way, so they slay and are slain; a promise which is binding on Him in the Taurat and the Injeel and the quran; and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? Rejoice therefore in the pledge which you have made; and that is the mighty achievement". Not only must Muslims fight and die to get into Heaven, they are required to do so with a smile.

The tafsir (scholarly interpretation) by 14th century exegete, Ibn Kathir, of verse 9:123 - "O you who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are close to you" - states that, "Allah commands the believers to fight the disbelievers, the closest in area to the Islamic state, then the farthest. This is why the Messenger of Allah started fighting the idolaters in the Arabian Peninsula. When he finished with them and Allah gave him control over Makkah, Al-Madinah, At-Ta'if, Yemen, Yamamah, Hajr, Khaybar, Hadramawt and other Arab provinces, and the various Arab tribes entered Islam in large crowds, he then started fighting the People of the Scriptures. He began preparations to fight the Romans who were the closest in area to the Arabian Peninsula, and as such, had the most right to be called to Islam [as described in 9:29], especially since they were from the People of the Scriptures". [Quran Tafsir | Tafsir Ibn Kathir - Surah 9. At-Tauba . Ayah 123]
The first 37 verses of surah 9, which were created after the non-battle of Tabuk, are believed by most to be the last chronologically.
Regarding the pagans of Mecca, the Qur'an says in verse 9;5, "And when the sacred months have passed [treaties have expired], then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush".
Verse 9:13, while encouraging more carnage, tells the outright lie that the pagans attacked the Muslims first, "Will you not fight a people who have violated their oaths (pagans of Makkah) and intended to expel the Messenger, while they did attack you first".
For that invented transgression 9:14 (again) says, "Fight them, and Allah will punish them by your hands".
Verses 9:16 reminds Muslims that they will be judged based on their willingness to spill blood, "Do you think that you will be left (as you are) while Allah has not yet made evident those among you who strive (for His cause)".
Verses 9:19, 20, and 24 speak again of jihad "one who believes in Allah and the Last Day and strives in the cause of Allah ... ones who have believed, emigrated and striven in the cause of Allah ... striving in His way".
Verses 9:25 and 9:26 reassure Muslim fighters that Allah is always with them - "Assuredly Allah did help you in many battle-fields ... He sent down soldiers angels whom you did not see and punished those who disbelieved". Those would be the "five thousand swooping angels" promised in verse 3:125.
Verse 9:29 is in my opinion the most significant in terms of defining Islam's relations with the rest of the world - "Fight against those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low".
This series of verses was created at the time that Mohamed had his sights set on attacking the Byzantine Empire, with the expedition to Tabuk being an attempt at joining the battle. Verse 9:29 served as the template for the standard "Invitation to Islam" that was issued to rulers of soon-to-be-conquered lands as the Islamic Empire spread. He had sent such a message to the Byzantine ruler, Heraclius, demanding he either submit to Islamic rule or face war. Heraclius refused, and the war was on. This was pure aggression.
Verse 9:30 confirmed Allah's intent towards those who don't worship "The Merciful" in the correct way - "The Christians say the Messiah is the son of Allah ... May Allah destroy them".
Verse 9:36 ignores the fact that no disbelievers fought the Muslims until they were attacked first - "Fight against the disbelievers collectively as they fight against you collectively". The key to understanding the justification behind such commands lies with the many verses in which "fitnah" (oppression) and "fasad" (corruption) serve as substitute rationalizations for fighting disbelievers.

Continued .....

 

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Continuation ..........

I'll leave the final word to someone else. In his tafsir of surah 9, Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi (9. Surah At Taubah (The Repentance) - Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi - Tafhim al-Qur'an - The Meaning of the Qur'an), summarizes "the problems that were confronting the [Islamic] Community at that time" thus:


- to make the whole of Arabia a perfect Dar-ul-Islam [abode of Islam],
- to extend the influence of Islam to the adjoining countries,
- to crush the mischief of the hypocrites, and
- to prepare the Muslims for Jihad against the non- Muslim world.

In order to enable the Muslims to extend the influence of Islam outside Arabia, they were enjoined to crush with sword the non- Muslim powers and to force them to accept the sovereignty of the Islamic State. As the great Roman and Iranian Empires were the biggest hindrances in the way, a conflict with them was inevitable. The object of Jihad was not to coerce them to accept Islam they were free to accept or not to accept it-but to prevent them from thrusting forcibly their deviations [non-Islamic religions] upon others and the coming generations. The Muslims were enjoined to tolerate their misguidance only to the extent that they might have the freedom to remain misguided, if they chose to be so, provided that they paid Jizyah (9:29) as a sign of their subjugation to the Islamic State.

In order to prepare the Muslims for Jihad against the whole non-Muslim world, it was necessary to cure them even of that slight weakness of faith from which they were still suffering. For there could be no greater internal danger to the Islamic Community than the weakness of faith, especially where it was going to engage itself single-handed in a conflict with the whole non-Muslim world. That is why those people who had lagged behind in the Campaign to Tabuk or had shown the least negligence were severely taken to task, and were considered hypocrites if they had no plausible excuse for not fulfilling that obligation. Moreover, a clear declaration was made that in future the sole criterion of a Muslim's faith shall be the exertions he makes for the uplift of the Word of Allah and the role he plays in the conflict between Islam and kufr. Therefore, if anyone will show any hesitation in sacrificing his life, money, time and energies, his faith shall not be regarded as genuine.

 

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So you are glossing out over verses in the chapter that refute this interpretation it as I thought.

Let me ask you a question, what did God in that chapter say regarding the people including polytheistic pagans in the region, who didn't break the treaty over and over again, to attack Muslims.

Did he say to fight them or not? What's the difference in the two per the verses?

 

[stevecanuck]

So you are glossing out over verses in the chapter that refute this interpretation it as I thought.

What other verses? What interpretation?

Let me ask you a question, what did God in that chapter say regarding the people including polytheistic pagans in the region, who didn't break the treaty over and over again, to attack Muslims.

Did he say to fight them or not? What's the difference in the two per the verses?

He said to honor the peace treaties with them - then kill them after the treaties expire.

 

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He said to honor the peace treaties with them - then kill them after the treaties expire.

Where did it say to kill them after the treaties expire?

Let me quote the verses:

(barring the polytheists with whom you have made a treaty, and who did not violate any [of its terms] with you, nor backed anyone against you. So fulfill the treaty with them until [the end of] its term. Indeed Allah loves the Godwary).

This says to fulfill the treaty, but it doesn't say to fight them after it's done. That's your addition. They will have to assess and see if polytheists want a treaty or not and if they want to continue peace or not.


And if one of the idolaters seek protection from you, grant him protection till he hears the word of Allah, then make him attain his place of safety; this is because they are a people who do not know. 6How can there be an agreement for the idolaters with Allah and with His Apostle; except those with whom you made an agreement at the Sacred Mosque? So as long as they are true to you, be true to them; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty). 7How (can it be)! while if they prevail against you, they would not pay regard in your case to ties of relationship, nor those of covenant; they please you with their mouths while their hearts do not consent; and most of them are transgressors. 8They have taken a small price for the communications of Allah, so they turn away from His way; surely evil is it that they do. 9They do not pay regard to ties of relationship nor those of covenant in the case of a believer; and these are they who go beyond the limits. 10But if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, they are your brethren in faith; and We make the communications clear for a people who know. 11And if they break their oaths after their agreement and (openly) revile your religion, then fight the leaders of unbelief-- surely their oaths are nothing-- so that they may desist. 12What! will you not fight a people who broke their oaths and aimed at the expulsion of the Apostle, and they attacked you first; do you fear them? But Allah is most deserving that you should fear Him, if you are believers. 13

This is clear, it's concerning those who kept breaking their treaties while it didn't say to fight them if they didn't.

And before that way before it said:

Fight them until persecution is no more, and religion becomes for Allah. Then if they desist, there shall be no reprisal except against the wrongdoers.

And do you know the history? The Meccans were defeated but Prophet Mohammad (s) didn't take vengeance on them. So it may appear like it says kill them all, but when he conquered them, he forgave them and let them under his government.

The people of the book discussed in this chapter, in light of the verses discussed, is also regarding those who broke their treaties. The characteristics mentioned of them is to show why they broke their treaties (they were faithless).

 

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Oh I see where you went wrong, the verse after doesn't refer to the exception, it refers to the general before the exception (the four months terminating is concerning who they can fight).

Easy mistake, not your fault.

 

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This verse is foreshadowing:

And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.
SHAKIR

And:

It may be that Allah will bring about affection between you and those with whom you are at enmity, and Allah is all-powerful, and Allah is all-forgiving, all-merciful.

And also there was was never enmity towards those who did not fight (they aren't disbelievers condemned as enemies of God):

Allah does not forbid you respecting those who have not made war against you on account of (your) religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely Allah loves the doers of justice.

Allah only forbids you respecting those who made war upon you on account of (your) religion, and drove you forth from your homes and backed up (others) in your expulsion, that you make friends with them, and whoever makes friends with them, these are the unjust.



Disbelief in reality in Quran, is not just in your heart, it's seeking out to extinguish God's light and being hostile to believers. This is why Quran says:

O you who have faith! When you issue forth in the way of Allah, try to ascertain: do not say to someone who offers you peace, ‘You are not a believer,’ seeking the transitory wares of the life of this world. Yet with Allah are plenteous gains. You too were such earlier, but Allah did you a favour. Therefore, do ascertain. Allah is indeed well aware of what you do.

And so this whole Dar Al-Kufr thing is anti-Quran, it goes against the above verse.

 

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And it also said if they would cease their hostility, not only will Prophet forgive them and not fight them anymore, but that God would forgive them.

This all Quran asks of humans who are non-Muslim, not to become hostile and seek to cover the truth. Kaffer is translated sometimes as disbelief, but it can also as one who seeks to cover (the truth), and I believe the latter is the true interpretation in light of the verses I shared.

And it doesn't mean cover in the heart, it means active opposition to the truth, if people cease that, and say let's study in peace, God would not punish them. This is why the destroyed nations, Quran emphasizes they tried to force the believers out of their creed.

Today people who are not against Muslims having their own government and ruling themselves, I don't believe are disbelievers. I believe it's the people who gone to haywire in secularism, and are trying to force us out of our creed of theocracy that are the disbelievers. It's they who see the best people as the worse when Quran talks about the people of hell not being to count any of the humans who they counted as the worse of humans, and according to hadiths, this is regarding the followers of Ahlulbayt (a) and so those who show no hostility towards us - they like the other thread I showed are people of paradise.

But people who support oppressors, oppressors themselves, and those who are silent in watching all of it, I do believe are condemned in Quran. Apathy is also in this case silent approval "go ahead and oppress" and is due to hatred.

If people seek justice and stop their leaders from oppressing believers and don't seek to oppress believers, they would go to paradise.

 

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Where did it say to kill them after the treaties expire?

Let me quote the verses:

(barring the polytheists with whom you have made a treaty, and who did not violate any [of its terms] with you, nor backed anyone against you. So fulfill the treaty with them until [the end of] its term. Indeed Allah loves the Godwary).

This says to fulfill the treaty, but it doesn't say to fight them after it's done. That's your addition. They will have to assess and see if polytheists want a treaty or not and if they want to continue peace or not.


And if one of the idolaters seek protection from you, grant him protection till he hears the word of Allah, then make him attain his place of safety; this is because they are a people who do not know. 6How can there be an agreement for the idolaters with Allah and with His Apostle; except those with whom you made an agreement at the Sacred Mosque? So as long as they are true to you, be true to them; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty). 7How (can it be)! while if they prevail against you, they would not pay regard in your case to ties of relationship, nor those of covenant; they please you with their mouths while their hearts do not consent; and most of them are transgressors. 8They have taken a small price for the communications of Allah, so they turn away from His way; surely evil is it that they do. 9They do not pay regard to ties of relationship nor those of covenant in the case of a believer; and these are they who go beyond the limits. 10But if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, they are your brethren in faith; and We make the communications clear for a people who know. 11And if they break their oaths after their agreement and (openly) revile your religion, then fight the leaders of unbelief-- surely their oaths are nothing-- so that they may desist. 12What! will you not fight a people who broke their oaths and aimed at the expulsion of the Apostle, and they attacked you first; do you fear them? But Allah is most deserving that you should fear Him, if you are believers. 13

This is clear, it's concerning those who kept breaking their treaties while it didn't say to fight them if they didn't.

And before that way before it said:

Fight them until persecution is no more, and religion becomes for Allah. Then if they desist, there shall be no reprisal except against the wrongdoers.

And do you know the history? The Meccans were defeated but Prophet Mohammad (s) didn't take vengeance on them. So it may appear like it says kill them all, but when he conquered them, he forgave them and let them under his government.

The people of the book discussed in this chapter, in light of the verses discussed, is also regarding those who broke their treaties. The characteristics mentioned of them is to show why they broke their treaties (they were faithless).

The Meccans surrendered, which obviated the need to kill them. We both know they had 2 choices - surrender or die. They surrendered. Others chose the easier way out and simply converted to Islam.

 

[stevecanuck]

Oh I see where you went wrong, the verse after doesn't refer to the exception, it refers to the general before the exception (the four months terminating is concerning who they can fight).

Easy mistake, not your fault.

Where's the mistake? "And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush" is pretty clear.

 

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What's your point? They fought the believers and prosecuted them when in Mecca, and when Prophet (s) was invited to Yathrib (Madina), he had to defend the city when they elected him as government and accepted his leadership and recognized his Prophethood.

Of course, some Yahtrib people were hypocrites and outraged at the decision, but Prophet (s) had to defend the city. For years, his followers were killed and tortured when found out they were believers and weren't allowed to profess faith so when they emigrated and did treating with polytheists, and those who kept breaking it, every time they thought they can beat believers, why don't they deserve to be conquered.

Is enemies of Islam always right and they can never be wrong? Is this your mentality. Fighting is always bad?

 

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Where's the mistake? "And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush" is pretty clear.

Yeah it is, but you are applying it to the exception, not the general (the verse before), and the whole chapter shows the fighting was not towards those polytheists. I quoted you a verse:

How shall the polytheists have any [valid] treaty with Allah and His Apostle?! (Barring those with whom you made a treaty at the Holy Mosque; so long as they are steadfast with you, be steadfast with them. Indeed Allah loves the Godwary.)

How is that not clear? It says as long as they are true to you, stay true to them.

 

[stevecanuck]

This verse is foreshadowing:

And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.
SHAKIR

Right - fight them until they surrender. We both agree the Qur'an says that.

And:

It may be that Allah will bring about affection between you and those with whom you are at enmity, and Allah is all-powerful, and Allah is all-forgiving, all-merciful.

When you go to a different surah, you should so say. You asked about surah 9, and now you've tried to insert verse 60:7 into the discussion. Nice try.

And also there was was never enmity towards those who did not fight (they aren't disbelievers condemned as enemies of God):

Allah does not forbid you respecting those who have not made war against you on account of (your) religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely Allah loves the doers of justice.

Allah only forbids you respecting those who made war upon you on account of (your) religion, and drove you forth from your homes and backed up (others) in your expulsion, that you make friends with them, and whoever makes friends with them, these are the unjust.



Disbelief in reality in Quran, is not just in your heart, it's seeking out to extinguish God's light and being hostile to believers. This is why Quran says:

O you who have faith! When you issue forth in the way of Allah, try to ascertain: do not say to someone who offers you peace, ‘You are not a believer,’ seeking the transitory wares of the life of this world. Yet with Allah are plenteous gains. You too were such earlier, but Allah did you a favour. Therefore, do ascertain. Allah is indeed well aware of what you do.

And so this whole Dar Al-Kufr thing is anti-Quran, it goes against the above verse.

Translation: When you go on conquests, make sure you're killing infidels and not Muslims.

 

[stevecanuck]

And it also said if they would cease their hostility, not only will Prophet forgive them and not fight them anymore, but that God would forgive them.

It's not just hostilities that have to cease, but refusal to accept Islam or Islamic rule. They have to surrender completely. You do know what "surrender" means in Arabic I assume.

This all Quran asks of humans who are non-Muslim, not to become hostile and seek to cover the truth. Kaffer is translated sometimes as disbelief, but it can also as one who seeks to cover (the truth), and I believe the latter is the true interpretation in light of the verses I shared.

Dead wrong. The Qur'an demands one of three things: Conversion, surrender to dhimmitude, death.

 

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Bring your proof. I showed verses showing otherwise, already explained it to you, so bring you proof to what you attribute to the Quran.

 

[stevecanuck]

Today people who are not against Muslims having their own government and ruling themselves, I don't believe are disbelievers. I believe it's the people who gone to haywire in secularism, and are trying to force us out of our creed of theocracy that are the disbelievers. It's they who see the best people as the worse when Quran talks about the people of hell not being to count any of the humans who they counted as the worse of humans, and according to hadiths, this is regarding the followers of Ahlulbayt (a) and so those who show no hostility towards us - they like the other thread I showed are people of paradise.

But people who support oppressors, oppressors themselves, and those who are silent in watching all of it, I do believe are condemned in Quran. Apathy is also in this case silent approval "go ahead and oppress" and is due to hatred.

If people seek justice and stop their leaders from oppressing believers and don't seek to oppress believers, they would go to paradise.

The entire country of Pakistan tried to execute Asia Bibi for defending her Christian religion, and you talk about oppressors? You have got to be kidding.

 

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From now on Steve, you should prove your interpretation CLEARLY through Quran or else, you interpretation are shown to bias seeking problems with Quran, when there is none.

 

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Bring your proof. I showed verses showing otherwise, already explained it to you, so bring you proof to what you attribute to the Quran.

Verse 9:29. Period.

Mohamed sent "invitations to Islam" to several leaders which laid out the choice they faced - Convert, surrender, or die.

 

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Prove your interpretation.