Uthman collection of Quran (or something else happened)

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Salam

I'll cut to the chase. From my research, I believe Quran was collected during Mohammad's (s) time.

So what is collection of Uthman about? Do research about hadiths being forbidden to be written by first 3 Caliphs, but long story short, I believe there has been a war to separate the Ahlulbayt from Quran and vice versa and when hadiths were forbidden to be written, a lot of people then said, well maybe we can write commentary in the Quran and show where Rasool said it's about Ahlulbayt (a).

And so for example, Ibn Abbas and Ibn Masud wrote "and his chosen Masters (with him)" in commentary with reference to "Warn the the nearest of your kin", but Uthman had to take all that and hide it from the masses.

So while Abu Bakr and Umar went out to burn ahadith books, and you can do research on this, yourself, and forbid writing of ahadith, people wrote commentaries.

The real purpose of Uthman collection per words of Imam Reda (a) in debate between him and scholars about family of Mohammad (s) and meaning of a hadith they attributed to the Rasool (s) about the nation being his family (they were trying to say by Ahlulbayt - the whole nation of Muslims are meant and then Imam Reda (a) argues from Quran there is clear distinction between Ahlulbayt (a) and the nation), found in the book tuhufuqul uqool, is that Uthman did that to hide such commentaries.

Therefore this is real intention of Uthman, of course, he won't say that so did in the name of protecting the Quran and collecting it.

@danieldemol

This is according to my research. There are many proofs that Quran was collected before Rasool (s) died according to both Sunni and Shiite hadiths.

As for Quran of Ali (a), it contains the chronological order and commentary to know the situation of each verse when it was revealed and how, and this will be important when the Mahdi (a) comes back as we can put all this in a program (the time of order of verses of Quran) and see how Quran was dynamically built over time, and with the situation, which will be a sign itself that Imam Mahdi (a) along with miracles he is showing, is the guidance for us.

 

[stevecanuck]

It would seem that neither "God" nor Mohamed had the foresight to realize that the Qur'an should have been written as it was being revealed so as to preclude any chance of if being altered or disputed. This is just another proof that the Qur'an was authored by Mohamed on an ad hoc basis. "God" delivered verses to suit Mohamed's needs on any given day.

 

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It would seem that neither "God" nor Mohamed had the foresight to realize that the Qur'an should have been written as it was being revealed so as to preclude any chance of if being altered or disputed. This is just another proof that the Qur'an was authored by Mohamed on an ad hoc basis. "God" delivered verses to suit Mohamed's needs on any given day.

Why do you take the Sunni version of Quranic collection though as opposed to what I just stated?

 

[stevecanuck]

If the Qur'an had been written on-the-spot, there would be no controversy about any of it. Clearly "God" wasn't smart enough to figure that out.

 

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If the Qur'an had been written on-the-spot, there would be no controversy about any of it. Clearly "God" wasn't smart enough to figure that out.

What do you mean, clarify please.

 

[stevecanuck]

What do you mean, clarify please.

I mean that delivering the Qur'an orally was a VERY predictable recipe for disaster. If each verse was transcribed immediately, the Qur'an would have been completed automatically, AND in the order it was delivered. No scrambling to get it on paper, along with the possibility of controversy and error, would have been necessary.

The fact that a "perfect" god couldn't figure that out for himself is a pretty clear indication that exactly ZERO gods had anything to do with the Qur'an. It was an imperfect invention of one imperfect man.

 

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Seems you are very confused on how Quran was revealed through out time of Mohammad's (s) life.

 

[stevecanuck]

Seems you are very confused on how Quran was revealed through out time of Mohammad's (s) life.

It's my turn to say, "What do you mean? Clarify please.".

 

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It's my turn to say, "What do you mean? Clarify please.".

They were revealed by circumstances and Surahs were not revealed in the order they are now. One verse from one Surah would be revealed, another in another Surah, and then each time, they would be properly placed somewhere in Quran, and not necessarily a verse revealed earlier in Surah is revealed before for example "Today I have competed you your religion" in 5:3 is revealed AFTER 5:67. And so Quran was built slowly with commentary of Messenger and situation, and so there is a whole story behind every verse. While Sunni literature doesn't know most circumstances of verses and doesn't have hadiths for most verses in Quran, Shiite hadiths, there is hardly any verse but there is commentary on it and most verses have an explanation in how they were revealed and which circumstance. Also part of a verse is revealed in a situation, and then another part revealed in another situation. So even verses themselves, they weren't all fully revealed at once.

This is key to understanding Quran, because the context often interprets the words themselves.

 

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And if you understand linguistics, most linguists since they don't believe in Quran, say this historically impossible just by the way Quran is contextualized and is like writing with intent from start to end. Speech and writing differ in how they appear and are not the same. But historians and history records this how Quran was revealed and Quran can't be read and understood except in that way and it becomes obvious it was revealed that way. Linguistics believe it's impossible for many reasons. So history and linguistics apparently don't go together with Quran as one has to be false or otherwise impossible for non-believers.

But this how Quran is revealed and Mohammad history is not made up nor that of his grandson who was slaughtered for defending Quran nor his family and successors made up, but all this is historical certainty.

 

[stevecanuck]

They were revealed by circumstances and Surahs were not revealed in the order they are now. One verse from one Surah would be revealed, another in another Surah, and then each time, they would be properly placed somewhere in Quran, and not necessarily a verse revealed earlier in Surah is revealed before for example "Today I have competed you your religion" in 5:3 is revealed AFTER 5:67. And so Quran was built slowly with commentary of Messenger and situation, and so there is a whole story behind every verse.

If you've read my posts, you would realize I know all that.

While Sunni literature doesn't know most circumstances of verses and doesn't have hadiths for most verses in Quran, Shiite hadiths, there is hardly any verse but there is commentary on it and most verses have an explanation in how they were revealed and which circumstance. Also part of a verse is revealed in a situation, and then another part revealed in another situation. So even verses themselves, they weren't all fully revealed at once.

This is key to understanding Quran, because the context often interprets the words themselves.

That simply reinforces that the Qur'an was not authored by a perfect god. If it was meant to be clear message from God, it would have been structured in such a way as to not need any clarification. Necessary contextual explanations would have been built into it. As it is, the Qur'an is one giant, repetitive, and BORING mess. No god worth his title would have put an unholy disaster like that together.

 

[danieldemol]

This is according to my research. There are many proofs that Quran was collected before Rasool (s) died according to both Sunni and Shiite hadiths.

Are we supposed to be debating hadith in a "Quranic debates" forum?

 

[danieldemol]

But this how Quran is revealed and Mohammad history is not made up nor that of his grandson who was slaughtered for defending Quran nor his family and successors made up, but all this is historical certainty.

Is "Quranic debates" the place to debate "historical certainty"?

 

[danieldemol]

@Link
It occurs to me that for the point I was making in the other thread it does not matter whether the Quran was compiled as it was revealed or after.

In either case no objective methodology was used to determine if the Quran is divine prior to compilation.

In the Shia and Sunni case its assumed that all verses were divine because they were revealed by Muhammad.

 

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If you've read my posts, you would realize I know all that.



That simply reinforces that the Qur'an was not authored by a perfect god. If it was meant to be clear message from God, it would have been structured in such a way as to not need any clarification. Necessary contextual explanations would have been built into it. As it is, the Qur'an is one giant, repetitive, and BORING mess. No god worth his title would have put an unholy disaster like that together.

The real wonders in Quran is what you begin to see how clear it is. Actually, the deepness of it is how clearer it gets, and get's more clear and less ambiguous.

The clarity in Quran is hard due to the sorcery upon it. But when you begin to reflect and defeat the sorcery keeping you from seeing the truth of it and truth of family of Mohammad (s) in it, it unravels in wonders.

Part of the reason why it was built over time, was the commentary of Rasool (s) and his Sunnah, would give it light. In fact, how these two (Sunnah and Quran) compliment each other is a miracle in itself.

 

[stevecanuck]

The real wonders in Quran is what you begin to see how clear it is. Actually, the deepness of it is how clearer it gets, and get's more clear and less ambiguous.

The clarity in Quran is hard due to the sorcery upon it. But when you begin to reflect and defeat the sorcery keeping you from seeing the truth of it and truth of family of Mohammad (s) in it, it unravels in wonders.

Part of the reason why it was built over time, was the commentary of Rasool (s) and his Sunnah, would give it light. In fact, how these two (Sunnah and Quran) compliment each other is a miracle in itself.

The entire reason it was built over time is that Mohamed was making it up as he went along. If he needed people to fight for him, then "God" would conveniently issue another series of fight-or-burn-in-Hell verses. Almost all of surah 9 is exactly that. And now we're stuck with that hateful, hate-filled, and militaristic BS along with the 1400-year jihad that it has inspired. Verse 9:111 tells Muslims that God will grant them entry into Heaven ONLY if they fight, kill, and die for Islam, so that's exactly what has happened, and still is. Islam is the cancer of humanity.

The mess that you adore is as divinely inspired as is the grocery list sitting on my kitchen counter. Why can't you see that?

 

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Let's think about it. If God wanted to teach the true spirit of fighting, wouldn't it be best to do it dynamically?

We are assuming Quran and Mohammad (s) are historically true for now right. Okay, so let's think about how verses were revealed.

The Quran reads fine the way you read it now but it's mind boggling to think how it was dynamically built now in the order it is now but in a order that if collected together in that order, the Quran would be a mess that doesn't make sense nor rhyme nor flow. This is because every verses has to put in a proper chapter and verses were revealed over a period of 23 years. The verses weren't revealed in sequence although if you read it today, the sequence of the Quran flows beautifully. How is that even possible? Every verse belongs perfectly where it is, yet, it was built in a way that none of it was revealed chronologically. That's bewildering.

And the spirit of fighting has to be dynamic, to show the intent, was peace from the start, yet also show what the spirit of believers should be when oppressed and under war and how to seek divine help from God in those times. The Sunnah of the Prophet also goes dynamically with the Quran.

And the Quran is balanced in how it approaches to fight or be at peace, when to fight, when to not, when to rise up, when to lay low. It allows dynamic change so that we can assess our situation and make some comparison, but also, know each situation requires some thought to it's own end.

Dynamically, the war and fighting verses also show the spirit of it, and the primary purpose is to show the intention must be peace at the end and a matter of justice, and not to seek worldly gains. The peace verses are not abrogated nor the fighting but we have to assess the situation and see which applies and also dynamically assess what we can do against oppressors, helping oppressed, and peace is to be preferred in all situations.

 

[stevecanuck]

Let's think about it. If God wanted to teach the true spirit of fighting, wouldn't it be best to do it dynamically?

We are assuming Quran and Mohammad (s) are historically true for now right. Okay, so let's think about how verses were revealed.

The Quran reads fine the way you read it now but it's mind boggling to think how it was dynamically built now in the order it is now but in a order that if collected together in that order, the Quran would be a mess that doesn't make sense nor rhyme nor flow. This is because every verses has to put in a proper chapter and verses were revealed over a period of 23 years. The verses weren't revealed in sequence although if you read it today, the sequence of the Quran flows beautifully. How is that even possible? Every verse belongs perfectly where it is, yet, it was built in a way that none of it was revealed chronologically. That's bewildering.

And the spirit of fighting has to be dynamic, to show the intent, was peace from the start, yet also show what the spirit of believers should be when oppressed and under war and how to seek divine help from God in those times. The Sunnah of the Prophet also goes dynamically with the Quran.

And the Quran is balanced in how it approaches to fight or be at peace, when to fight, when to not, when to rise up, when to lay low. It allows dynamic change so that we can assess our situation and make some comparison, but also, know each situation requires some thought to it's own end.

Dynamically, the war and fighting verses also show the spirit of it, and the primary purpose is to show the intention must be peace at the end and a matter of justice, and not to seek worldly gains. The peace verses are not abrogated nor the fighting but we have to assess the situation and see which applies and also dynamically assess what we can do against oppressors, helping oppressed, and peace is to be preferred in all situations.

Your previous posts have been much more logical and well presented than this one. Honestly, this was a mess.

Islam was created, as you say, over 23 years. Reading the revelations chronologically makes it obvious that for the first 12 years Mohamed was doing little more than saying, "Hey, listen to me". Only after he moved to Yathrib and turned Islam militant did he actually give it a unique flavor. It culminated with Surah 9 in which the fight-for-Allah-or-burn-in-Hell message became paramount.

If you want the spirit of fighting to be dynamic, you've got it in the true chronology.

 

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Anyone can phrase the most beautiful words, with, bad summary. But I know what you mean, I'm saying it's a good thing, his life was dynamically intertwined with Quran. we understand the context of fighting verses and the dynamic nature of them better that way.

 

[stevecanuck]

Anyone can phrase the most beautiful words, with, bad summary. But I know what you mean, I'm saying it's a good thing, his life was dynamically intertwined with Quran. we understand the context of fighting verses and the dynamic nature of them better that way.

And what we understand is that calls for fighting became more common and more of a core value as time went on until surah 9, a continuous call to arms, was finally revealed. Modern-day Islamist extremism is a direct result of the words in the Qur'an and the actions of Mohamed in those final years.