Urantia Book Questions

[Super Universe]

You say that the UB is a "book based on faith." Then you give examples like having faith that a bridge with remain structurally sound, or having faith that people won't murder each other. Is that the kind of anecdotal "faith" that the UB is based on?


No, I actually have a fairly complex "god theory." Yet I can answer questions about it, give examples about it--I know it. I don't direct people to buy a book, claim that it has amazing knowledge not found anywhere else, but remain unable to give any indication as to how that knowledge is amazingly exclusive.

It would be nice to have an actual discussion about this book. To have you share some things past "It's an amazing book full of knowledge--go buy it!"

You still think it's all about having to buy something even though I provided a link where it can be downloaded for free.

In my opinion, the UB is not for you.

Good luck with the animism, you're really going to need it.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

I've downloaded your book but you're right; it's probably not for me. The point is that you won't hold a discussion regarding it. You're pitching the book, not the ideas held in it.

And I'm not an animist.

 

[Super Universe]

In Paper 101 the UB says:

"We full well know that, while the historic facts and religious truths of this series of revelatory presentations will stand on the records of the ages to come, within a few short years many of our statements regarding the physical sciences will stand in need of revision in consequence of additional scientific developments and new discoveries. These new developments we even now foresee, but we are forbidden to include such humanly undiscovered facts in the revelatory records. Let it be made clear that revelations are not necessarily inspired. The cosmology of these revelations is not inspired."​

Then, it seems, wherever the Book touches on scientific explanations it basically encapsulates some of the prevailing scientific ideas of the early 20th century - there is no conception of the Big Bang, the evolution of the solar system follows a subsequently outdated model, mercury was thought to be tidally-locked (this was discovered to be untrue in the 1960s)...etc.

The point is, it, more or less by its own admission, is limited to ideas that were already available to humans at the time it was 'revealed'. How then is it 'revelation' at all? And what genuine value could it have to us - except as an increasingly quaint and dated expression of some ideas people had about reality in the early 20th century?

Just like in human society there are rules for angels. The rules don't come from God, God's rules are the rules of physics and they are unbreakable, even for Jesus.

Certain very high level angels have rules that all lower angels must follow. If an angel violates them there are severe consequences, for instance, treason against the universe gets an angel the death penalty, in some cases without a trial. It's instantaneous.

Other rules are formed by lower angels, usually, the leaders of certain groups. Think of it this way, the Electricians Union might have rules against using electrical tape to repair wires, if you violate that rule you are punished by your peers, by other angels, not by God, not by Jesus, and not even by the very high level angels. For something like that it might just be some retraining or an assignment to a different job.

Now, to answer your question, giving new information to God's children is a violation unless it has been approved by Jesus before hand. The reason is because giving new information to humans is reserved for God. When Moses heard a voice in his head, that was God, or more correctly, his soul, which is a fragment of God. When Einstein came up with E=MC squared, that was God. When you lose your keys and then their location suddenly pops into your head, that's God.

So, when the UB says that "we are forbidden to include such humanly undiscovered facts," that's what it means. They can give you the information but they will be in violation. Angels don't just commit violations, other than Lucifer and his rebellion, but that was an extremely rare case.

So, why did they attempt to give us any science information at all? I think what they did is include some truth with some incorrect things. Sometimes, I think they really try to get us to think outside the box.

As for the information it provides about angels and the many universe levels and God and Spirit and Jesus, there is nothing that comes close to giving us as much information.

 

[Super Universe]

I've downloaded your book but you're right; it's probably not for me. The point is that you won't hold a discussion regarding it. You're pitching the book, not the ideas held in it.

And I'm not an animist.

I'm not pitching the book, but you seemed to be stuck on the purchase price even though I said over and over again that it's free online.

Honestly, I don't want to be stuck with people like you at the next level. I don't particularly like most humans. You're selfish. You have inflated ego's even though you've done nothing and been nowhere and only have a smidgen of education. You think God should serve you and be all about you and that He should have made you rich and a celebrity. You don't want to learn the truth, you just want information that confirms what you already believe.

I don't want to be in a class trying to learn the most important information I will ever learn with a male Paris Hilton sitting next to me. It's going to be tough enough as it is.

 

[siti]

As for the information it provides about angels and the many universe levels and God and Spirit and Jesus, there is nothing that comes close to giving us as much information.

So essentially you are suggesting that, in the Book, God deliberately gives us detailed and accurate information about things we cannot possibly verify and wildly inaccurate, misleading and incomplete information about things that we can (or will eventually be able to) figure out for ourselves? And the angels are forbidden from revealing anything about reality that we don't know already? I am struggling to understand how this can possibly be useful.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Honestly, I don't want to be stuck with people like you at the next level. I don't particularly like most humans. You're selfish.

You have inflated ego's even though you've done nothing and been nowhere and only have a smidgen of education.

Because you totally know where I've been and what education I've received.

You think God should serve you and be all about you and that He should have made you rich and a celebrity.

You don't want to learn the truth, you just want information that confirms what you already believe.

No, as I said I would prefer to hold a discussion about your book. But apparently that won't happen.

I don't want to be in a class trying to learn the most important information I will ever learn with a male Paris Hilton sitting next to me. It's going to be tough enough as it is.

I now cannot wait to critique this "book of amazing super-important top-secret information", if this is the manner of product that it teaches.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I'm not pitching the book, but you seemed to be stuck on the purchase price even though I said over and over again that it's free online.

Honestly, I don't want to be stuck with people like you at the next level. I don't particularly like most humans. You're selfish. You have inflated ego's even though you've done nothing and been nowhere and only have a smidgen of education. You think God should serve you and be all about you and that He should have made you rich and a celebrity. You don't want to learn the truth, you just want information that confirms what you already believe.

I don't want to be in a class trying to learn the most important information I will ever learn with a male Paris Hilton sitting next to me. It's going to be tough enough as it is.

Why are you flying off at the handle and attacking people out of nowhere? You should take a step back and calm down. You're coming off as a bit unhinged.

 

[Super Universe]

So essentially you are suggesting that, in the Book, God deliberately gives us detailed and accurate information about things we cannot possibly verify and wildly inaccurate, misleading and incomplete information about things that we can (or will eventually be able to) figure out for ourselves? And the angels are forbidden from revealing anything about reality that we don't know already? I am struggling to understand how this can possibly be useful.

It's way more complicated than that. There is nothing simple about God's universe. The scientists have only begun to scratch the surface.

I'm going to try and get this correct.

Okay, your mind is your file in God's brain. Your soul is a God fragment, it is God's connection to your mind and your body. The soul rarely gives us any clear information. It pretends to be human at times, we call them dreams. The soul is like an infant, it requires experiential learning.

When God decides to give humans new ideas, as when Einstein came up with Relativity and Special Relativity, the soul provides the information and the person thinks it's coming from their mind. They "think" that they are so smart that they figured out that space is time when there is no way a human, or angel, could ever have an original idea on their own because that is creating and only God can do that.

99% of all our thoughts are recycled ideas, things we've learned from others.

The mind is a combination of unique personality and memory. 99% of all the thoughts you've ever had come from your mind. Mind thoughts are not always correct, partly because personality interferes, your emotions influence what you accept and believe.

You can't tell the difference when an idea is from your soul or your mind so you think it's from your mind.

Also, certain higher beings can intercept the connection between your mind and your body. So, when Moses heard a voice inside his head he assumed it was God, it was not God, it was an angel who was trying to guide Moses to the idea of one Creator instead of many.

And, in the past, bad beings have "possessed" humans. Jesus turned that off once He finished His earthly bestowal but it can still happen if someone is mentally disabled. The scientists think that schizophrenic people are seeing things that aren't there, when, really, they're seeing things that are there they just exist in a higher dimension.

 

[Super Universe]

Because you totally know where I've been and what education I've received.

No, as I said I would prefer to hold a discussion about your book. But apparently that won't happen.


I now cannot wait to critique this "book of amazing super-important top-secret information", if this is the manner of product that it teaches.

When I talk about not having any education, I mean from a universal perspective, not an earthly one. You could be the most educated person on the planet but you've never left the earth so you don't even know 1% of what you need to know to get into heaven.

I won't hold a discussion about the UB? That's what we've been doing for three pages now. The concepts are complex. I have to go back and read it over myself. I might tell you something that is not entirely correct.

 

[Super Universe]

Why are you flying off at the handle and attacking people out of nowhere? You should take a step back and calm down. You're coming off as a bit unhinged.

You just got here, I bet you haven't read all the posts up till now. This guy's been posting the same thing over and over for three pages now.

I said in the beginning that the book is available for free online and he's stuck on the fact that they charge for a paper copy. Yeah, they freaken charge for a paper copy of the book because it costs money to print and ship them.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

you've never left the earth

And... how do you know?

I won't hold a discussion about the UB?

Would you like me to find all the times I asked for explanations as to what Urantia is about, and the answer was "read the book; it's complex"? Finally going more indepth about it 37 posts in isn't exactly "discussing it for three pages".

The concepts are complex. I have to go back and read it over myself. I might tell you something that is not entirely correct.

This suggests inconsistencies, or a significant lack of information retained.

 

[Super Universe]

And... how do you know?


Would you like me to find all the times I asked for explanations as to what Urantia is about, and the answer was "read the book; it's complex"? Finally going more indepth about it 37 posts in isn't exactly "discussing it for three pages".


This suggests inconsistencies, or a significant lack of information retained.

Here it is again, from page 1

I think you're asking me what the UB is about? To make a very long story short, there are many universal levels and many varieties of angels who do work for the universe.

The universe is basically a school system designed to give God's children, humans and other sentient beings, experiential experience followed by formal schooling on how God and the universe really work.

God only does the things that only God can do. He creates the universe and provides personality to all beings.

 

[siti]

It's way more complicated than that. There is nothing simple about God's universe. The scientists have only begun to scratch the surface.

I'm going to try and get this correct.

Okay, your mind is your file in God's brain. Your soul is a God fragment, it is God's connection to your mind and your body. The soul rarely gives us any clear information. It pretends to be human at times, we call them dreams. The soul is like an infant, it requires experiential learning.

When God decides to give humans new ideas, as when Einstein came up with Relativity and Special Relativity, the soul provides the information and the person thinks it's coming from their mind. They "think" that they are so smart that they figured out that space is time when there is no way a human, or angel, could ever have an original idea on their own because that is creating and only God can do that.

99% of all our thoughts are recycled ideas, things we've learned from others.

The mind is a combination of unique personality and memory. 99% of all the thoughts you've ever had come from your mind. Mind thoughts are not always correct, partly because personality interferes, your emotions influence what you accept and believe.

You can't tell the difference when an idea is from your soul or your mind so you think it's from your mind.

Also, certain higher beings can intercept the connection between your mind and your body. So, when Moses heard a voice inside his head he assumed it was God, it was not God, it was an angel who was trying to guide Moses to the idea of one Creator instead of many.

And, in the past, bad beings have "possessed" humans. Jesus turned that off once He finished His earthly bestowal but it can still happen if someone is mentally disabled. The scientists think that schizophrenic people are seeing things that aren't there, when, really, they're seeing things that are there they just exist in a higher dimension.

OK thanks - I appreciate you taking the time and effort, but to be honest, you have not answered my question. My question was how is the Book useful - as knowledge - if it only reveals things that are either already known and could have been looked up elsewhere or are entirely impossible to verify? What I mean is - let's take Einstein for example - if God revealed everything to him under the guise of Einstein's own brilliance, how does knowing that change anything? E=mc2 means the same thing whether it was divinely revealed or worked out by human ingenuity. And presumably Einstein had no inkling of the UB or the involvement of angels - at least I don't recall him ever listing them in the references and citations of his papers.

What I am asking is - even if you're right - and I can't prove that you're not once you invoke supernatural interventions - what difference does it make?

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Which really only says "There are multiple levels of existence. There are a lot of classes of angels. We're here to learn about reality, and only god can do god stuff."

Which is pretty much what all the Abrahamic faiths (and a few of their predecessors) said. To which I asked how it differs from them, and your answer was "it's not." But then you state that it explains god, reality, Jesus, Judeo-Christian mythology... things a religion does. And that the book is faith-based (you're somewhat vague on which manner of faith is being utilized here, though.)

That's not really discussing Urantia. It's offering vague half-answers and generalizations that can be applied to any Abrahamic faith, and don't indicate how Urantia is unique or useful. Neither do the insults of intelligence help your presentation.

 

[Super Universe]

OK thanks - I appreciate you taking the time and effort, but to be honest, you have not answered my question. My question was how is the Book useful - as knowledge - if it only reveals things that are either already known and could have been looked up elsewhere or are entirely impossible to verify? What I mean is - let's take Einstein for example - if God revealed everything to him under the guise of Einstein's own brilliance, how does knowing that change anything? E=mc2 means the same thing whether it was divinely revealed or worked out by human ingenuity. And presumably Einstein had no inkling of the UB or the involvement of angels - at least I don't recall him ever listing them in the references and citations of his papers.

What I am asking is - even if you're right - and I can't prove that you're not once you invoke supernatural interventions - what difference does it make?

The book is useful in that there is a great deal of new information. The difficulty is putting it all together, making sense of it.

Some of it makes sense, the Life of Jesus, even the Lucifer Rebellion. The subjects on God, the Thought Adjuster (soul), personality and how Spirit mixes in, are very confusing.

E=MC2 does mean the same thing whether it was divinely inspired or from the mind. The way to know that it comes from the soul is that it is something entirely new and it is correct. I think God gave him Relativity and Special Relativity. Some of the other things that Einstein tried to come up, the universal constant that he fought with over and over, maybe those came from his mind. He was very smart, just not as smart as he thought. I think we all get in that trap at times.

Einstein had no idea about angels? The information provided is seemless. You think it's your mind. I think Einstein received information directly from his soul, a God fragment, so, that is the same as saying it came from God because the soul is God.

When someone like Moses hears a voice inside his head, that's not the soul, that's a being, angel or, sometimes, another ascended "bad" being who is trying to possess or "jump" into you.

If I'm right, then you have information about God and the universe that you did not have before and, hopefully, we can move away from 3,000 year old God Theory to 1950's God Theory and maybe we will get something even more advanced before we all kick the bucket.

Water at the center of a river can only flow a bit faster than the water next to it.

 

[siti]

Well, I'm (ambitiously and somewhat blindly) aiming (or perhaps 'groping') for 21st century 'God theory' but I'm still not seeing how the UB is going to help me in that quest. The science is out of date and from what you have expressed so far it seems like the theology is a mix of bronze age mythology and medieval mysticism (aka a kind of weirdly comprehensive 'Christianity'). I'm sure there's a bit more to it than that, and I will try and read at least a little bit more some time, but I don't think that 'more' equals 'better' - especially in this case.

 

[Super Universe]

Which really only says "There are multiple levels of existence. There are a lot of classes of angels. We're here to learn about reality, and only god can do god stuff."

Which is pretty much what all the Abrahamic faiths (and a few of their predecessors) said. To which I asked how it differs from them, and your answer was "it's not." But then you state that it explains god, reality, Jesus, Judeo-Christian mythology... things a religion does. And that the book is faith-based (you're somewhat vague on which manner of faith is being utilized here, though.)

That's not really discussing Urantia. It's offering vague half-answers and generalizations that can be applied to any Abrahamic faith, and don't indicate how Urantia is unique or useful. Neither do the insults of intelligence help your presentation.

The explanation I gave you about the UB is greatly simplified. I'm not going to post the entire book here.

What I said about the UB being different from an Abrahamic religion was this: there are no meetings, there are no church's, and there are no traditions.

I'm vague on the manner of faith? I already gave you an explanation. Having faith means have an open mind. Don't prejudge. Don't desire the universe to be this way or that way. Don't want God to be this kind of God or that kind of God. Don't even want God to exist or not exist. Recognize that your desires influence your beliefs when it shouldn't.

You won't accept what you are taught at the next level unless you can open your mind to concepts that are very advanced.

I'm not insulting your intelligence. I'm frustrated with your "I have to have it only my certain way" attitude. When someone simplifies something incredibly complex it detracts from the whole truth, even if it is to a small degree. That's not something I am comfortable doing but, there is no other way to discuss the UB except by taking small bites at a time.

 

[Super Universe]

Well, I'm (ambitiously and somewhat blindly) aiming (or perhaps 'groping') for 21st century 'God theory' but I'm still not seeing how the UB is going to help me in that quest. The science is out of date and from what you have expressed so far it seems like the theology is a mix of bronze age mythology and medieval mysticism (aka a kind of weirdly comprehensive 'Christianity'). I'm sure there's a bit more to it than that, and I will try and read at least a little bit more some time, but I don't think that 'more' equals 'better' - especially in this case.

I think the closest thing we have to 21st century God Theory is String Theory and as the saying goes "anyone who understands quantum physics hasn't really understood it".

The science of the UB is out of date? The book might not have given you what you want but I'll play that game.

The scientists say that the solar system came from a condensing cloud, a nebula. If so, how come the sun rotates perpendicular to the ecliptic plane? If the solar system condensed and began to rotate all as one the sun and planets would all rotate the same direction. They don't.

The big bang did not happen. The scientists saw that galaxies were moving away from each other. They reasoned that they must have come from the same place. They measured the expansion and were astonished to find that the expansion is speeding up. They figured if they ran it backwards that it would take 13.8 billion years for every galaxy to go back to the beginning. But, that means the big bang violated the law of gravity. If you have to alter your known physical laws to fit a theory that should be a warning that there is a problem with the theory. Galaxies form in place. Space expands.

Also, the background radiation that scientists thought proves the big bang, well, stars produce radiation. Everywhere you look in space there are stars so how can you say that it's from a big bang and not stars?

They need to build a space interferometer of Hubbles, then they will see more galaxies.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Not a religion, huh? The last paper states "To 'follow Jesus' means to personally share his religious faith and to enter into the spirit of the Master's life of unselfish service for man." This is Christianity with a pseudo-scientific, almost Scientological veneer. The book itself claims to be an expansion of Christianity. You stated correctly; this is not for me. Knowledge may be found in a book, but not one that relies on outdated scientific models and theological misconception. Wisdom is certainly not found in a book, but in experience.

Not to mention I prefer Erde-Tyrene as the name of our world, if we're going to be taking from science fiction.

The explanation I gave you about the UB is greatly simplified.

Yes, I gathered. So simplified that it resembles nearly all Abrahamic religions.

What I said about the UB being different from an Abrahamic religion was this: there are no meetings, there are no church's, and there are no traditions.

No, that was when you were saying it wasn't a religion. To which Quintesence stated that not all religions are organized in such a manner. However there is most certainly tradition, as it relies on Judeo-Christian mythology and Medieval Christian concepts. (i.e. the whole "Lucifer" thing.)

Having faith means have an open mind.

No, having faith means believing things without solid evidence. Having an open mind means one is being open-minded.

Recognize that your desires influence your beliefs when it shouldn't.

You're prejudging. You don't know what influences my beliefs, or what relation desire has to that.

I'm not insulting your intelligence.

Yes you were, when you called me a "male Paris Hilton," I believe it was.

When someone simplifies something incredibly complex it detracts from the whole truth, even if it is to a small degree.

No it doesn't. How do you think we teach meteorology and biology to grade schoolers?

 

[siti]

I think the closest thing we have to 21st century God Theory is String Theory and as the saying goes "anyone who understands quantum physics hasn't really understood it".

The science of the UB is out of date? The book might not have given you what you want but I'll play that game.

The scientists say that the solar system came from a condensing cloud, a nebula. If so, how come the sun rotates perpendicular to the ecliptic plane? If the solar system condensed and began to rotate all as one the sun and planets would all rotate the same direction. They don't.

The big bang did not happen. The scientists saw that galaxies were moving away from each other. They reasoned that they must have come from the same place. They measured the expansion and were astonished to find that the expansion is speeding up. They figured if they ran it backwards that it would take 13.8 billion years for every galaxy to go back to the beginning. But, that means the big bang violated the law of gravity. If you have to alter your known physical laws to fit a theory that should be a warning that there is a problem with the theory. Galaxies form in place. Space expands.

Also, the background radiation that scientists thought proves the big bang, well, stars produce radiation. Everywhere you look in space there are stars so how can you say that it's from a big bang and not stars?

They need to build a space interferometer of Hubbles, then they will see more galaxies.

Er...right...OK! This is precisely what 1920s cosmology said - that was the point of my first post. The writers of the UB (presumably having observed what happened to the Bible's 'cosmology') were obviously smart enough to include a 'disclaimer' suggesting that it just wasn't time for the true cosmology to be revealed (that's the section I quoted earlier from Paper 101) and that (in another part) 'human knowledge would have to evolve'. That part, at least, is true, but you seem to be taking the Book as the final 'verbatim' word on scientific matters we now know to have been incorrectly understood in the Book - the writers themselves didn't even make that claim.